ECT 3 Questions for my MAD and YEC friends

Danoh · Aug 5, 2015

patman said:
Thank you for replying with so much from the Bible.

I am a difficult person, probably slower than average. As I read those passages, I kept thinking about how many ways they have been interpreted and the different ways even key words in each one can be meant.

Long before Moses brought the law, God made a covenant with Abraham that involved so little. There were no 10 commandments, only circumcision as a sign. Were they not identified with as God's people, even while there was no law?

I agree that following the law makes you a Jew by tradition, but does it make you child of Abraham? Does it make you a child of God. And I am sure you agree it does not, and it never could on its own unless you were able to truly keep it.

And now we have the law as a lesson to the power of Grace. Paul revealed it to us, and God made us dead to it thanks to Jesus.

So I do not follow the conclusion that the law is needed to mark you as God's people when for hundreds of years before it there were Gods people, and today there are billions who are dead to it.

I do not understand it's part in the future as it relates to God's people. (The only thing I can see us using it for is to judge others who are still under it.)

If God's people do not need it, if they can be identified as his people without it, why would his people return to it in the future? I do not assume there is no answer, I just want/hope the answer to make(s) sense to me.

Consider that you asked about the Law. I answered on that. But it was not their sole means of Identity. Also, I was talking about Israel, not the Body of Christ.

Romans 2:

17. Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18. And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19. And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20. An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

24. For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25. For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 3:

1. What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there of circumcision?
2. Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3. For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Romans 9:

1. I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2. That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Jeremiah 31:

31. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an
husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their
God, and they shall be my people.
34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them,
saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35. Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The
LORD of hosts is his name:
36. If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Ezekiel 36:

22. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Jerry Shugart · Aug 5, 2015

patman said:
I do not understand it's part in the future as it relates to God's people. (The only thing I can see us using it for is to judge others who are still under it.)

If God's people do not need it, if they can be identified as his people without it, why would his people return to it in the future?

The original purpose why the Law was given to Israel is the same reason why it will be given to her again in the future:

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation" (Ex.19:5-6).

The LORD will empower the natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be a holy nation and a kingdom of priests when this prophecy is fulfilled:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).

This is a promise which the LORD made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. And He will honor this promise. It will be fulfilled in the future.

Tambora · Aug 5, 2015

Patman,

A lot of the answers to your questions about the law after the rapture are going to depend on which OT verses are referring to the millennial reign of Christ.

Let's look at this point:

Matthew 5 KJV
(17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus told them that not one itsy-bitsy bit of the law will pass from it as long as heaven and earth have not passed away.

Now we, as the BOC (Body of Christ) know perfectly well that the law has no hold on us whatsoever.

So Jesus could not have possibly had the BOC in mind when He said the above.
So, whom does He have in mind?

(19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Those in the "kingdom of heaven".
And while they are in that kingdom, the law is enforced. And anyone in that kingdom that doesn't obey the law, or even teaches someone else that they don't have to, they are going to have the lowest status in that kingdom.

(20) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Before one can even enter this kingdom, their righteousness has to exceed that of the Pharisees.
Since we know elsewhere in scripture that Jesus tells folks that they all must obey the Pharisees when they sit in Moses' seat .... the question naturally arises .... what is Moses' seat?
I would suggest that it is when the law is read in the congregation.
And the Pharisees were extremely cautious of keeping every point of the law.
Therefore, I suggest that when Jesus says in verse 20 that their righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, it means that they are even more extremely cautious of keeping every point of the law.

AND ......
I also suggest that the "kingdom" referred to is the millennial kingdom of Christ.
The very kingdom that was promised to Israel.
A kingdom on earth.
That kingdom is not the BOC.
Neither is that kingdom synonymous with eternal life. So those laws are not for eternal life, but to be able to enter the millennial kingdom on earth.

But again, so many variables come into play.
What one considers to be the "kingdom" spoken of.
At which point do you consider the new heaven and new earth to occur?
Which prophesies are for the millennial kingdom?
etc.

It's a BIG study!!!!

Jerry Shugart · Aug 5, 2015

patman said:
I think it just depends on the revelation that was revealed. If they heard the 12 prior to Paul, then no, if they heard Paul then yes. Still, many of the 12 are mentioned by name to have heard Paul and confessed grace.

So you think that Paul was in error when he told all those everywhere who call on the name of the Lord Jesus that they have been baptized into the Body of Christ?

Or do you think that there were Christians who did not call on the name of the Lord Jesus at the time when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians?

Jerry Shugart · Aug 5, 2015

Tambora said:
I also suggest that the "kingdom" referred to is the millennial kingdom of Christ.
The very kingdom that was promised to Israel.
A kingdom on earth.
That kingdom is not the BOC.

The members of the Body of Christ will partake in that kingdom on earth. After all, we are told that after we are caught up to meet Him in the air then we shall forever be with Him:

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:17).

So when He returns to the earth to set up His earthly kingdom we will return with Him and remain with Him on the earth for one thousand years.

patman · Aug 5, 2015

Jerry Shugart said:
So you think that Paul was in error when he told all those everywhere who call on the name of the Lord Jesus that they have been baptized into the Body of Christ?

Do you think that there were Christians who did not call on the name of the Lord Jesus at the time when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians?

Rant:

I don't disagree with Paul, I disagree with your assertions of what his words mean. Stop acting like not agreeing with you is like not agreeing with Paul.

You're ideas are debatable. It doesn't make you wrong, it just means you are required to show you are correct with convincing evidence; Don't just go equating your ideas with those of Paul and expect me to buy it.

Answer:
The word "all" is a superlative and rarely ever means a literal count of 100% and has so many caveats when you try to make it mean that. In this case, "all" means all who accepted grace via his message. Paul could have meant "all believers ever" as you say or he could have meant "all believers hearing this" or "all believers from now on" or the complete roster of any other relevant group to the context of his statements.

We also have believers who are not called the Body, but the bride, Israel, Jews and many other titles in the Bible. They are not necessarily one in the same group, even though they all share the same trait of following God.

Tambora · Aug 5, 2015

Jerry Shugart said:
The members of the Body of Christ will partake in that kingdom on earth.

In what form?
Certainly not mortal.

patman · Aug 5, 2015

Tambora said:
Patman,

A lot of the answers to your questions about the law after the rapture are going to depend on which OT verses are referring to the millennial reign of Christ.

Let's look at this point:

Matthew 5 KJV
(17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus told them that not one itsy-bitsy bit of the law will pass from it as long as heaven and earth have not passed away.

Now we, as the BOC (Body of Christ) know perfectly well that the law has no hold on us whatsoever.

So Jesus could not have possibly had the BOC in mind when He said the above.
So, whom does He have in mind?

(19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Those in the "kingdom of heaven".
And while they are in that kingdom, the law is enforced. And anyone in that kingdom that doesn't obey the law, or even teaches someone else that they don't have to, they are going to have the lowest status in that kingdom.

(20) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Before one can even enter this kingdom, their righteousness has to exceed that of the Pharisees.
Since we know elsewhere in scripture that Jesus tells folks that they all must obey the Pharisees when they sit in Moses' seat .... the question naturally arises .... what is Moses' seat?
I would suggest that it is when the law is read in the congregation.
And the Pharisees were extremely cautious of keeping every point of the law.
Therefore, I suggest that when Jesus says in verse 20 that their righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, it means that they are even more extremely cautious of keeping every point of the law.

AND ......
I also suggest that the "kingdom" referred to is the millennial kingdom of Christ.
The very kingdom that was promised to Israel.
A kingdom on earth.
That kingdom is not the BOC.
Neither is that kingdom synonymous with eternal life. So those laws are not for eternal life, but to be able to enter the millennial kingdom on earth.

But again, so many variables come into play.
What one considers to be the "kingdom" spoken of.
At which point do you consider the new heaven and new earth to occur?
Which prophesies are for the millennial kingdom?
etc.

It's a BIG study!!!!

Thanks Tambora,

I think we are coming from the same understanding of MAD here. That really helps

What you said really aligns with my understanding.

I am still not sure why it's necessary to return to the law during this kingdom. I understand that the law is still around today, but not for believers as you said so well. So why the need to go back when Paul explained so well why it's great to be dead to it.

I am trying to understand the motivation behind bringing it back, and I am looking for a solid passage in the Bible that says it's coming back despite Paul's arguments "against" it (for lack of a better way of saying it). (For example, might the reason be that having the law create the circumstances necessary for the end to come?)

I don't ask much

DAN P · Aug 5, 2015

patman said:
Why aren't they jews? Paul called himself a jew...

Hi and SAUL / PAUL was saved bt Grace a s Gal 1:15 and what was reavealed to Paul by REVELATION , Gal 1:11 and 12 and Rom 1:1 proves it as SEPARATED is in the Greek Perfect Tens , Passive Voice and in the Indicative Mood of FACT !!

Saul was " born out of due time " and only happened to Saul ONLY !!

In Gal 3:28 there are 4 verbs ALL in the Present Tense which is CONTINUOUS ACTION and that means there are NO Jews or Greeks , Bond or Free nor Male nor Female in the Body of Christ !!

This means that even MARY is not in Heaven , and ALL OT Saints went to Abraham's Bosom and not heaven !!

Gal 3:28 even sloves why some were " in Christ " ( Rom 16:7 , and study what it means to be " in Christ " !!

There are 145 differents means that we are " in Christ ".

dan p

patman · Aug 5, 2015

DAN P said:
In Gal 3:28 there are 4 verbs ALL in the Present Tense which is CONTINUOUS ACTION and that means there are NO Jews or Greeks , Bond or Free nor Male nor Female in the Body of Christ !!

The context "in Christ" is the only way they are the same. There were in facts slaves, and jews, and greeks and more... This verse means we are all saved the same way, it does not say that there are no longer groups. It is more about your social status doesn't keep you from christ, it has nothing to do with the denouncements of social roles.

I am not sure why we are talking about this?:idunno:

Jerry Shugart · Aug 5, 2015

patman said:
Answer:
The word "all" is a superlative and rarely ever means a literal count of 100% and has so many caveats when you try to make it mean that. In this case, "all" means all who accepted grace via his message.

So you agree that those who received Peter's first epistle were members of the Body of Christ, especially since they accepted grace by what Paul preached?:

Here is what Peter told them:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).

The Greek word translated 'this" at the beginning of verse 25 must refer to something that Peter said earlier which was the gospel by which they were born again:

'Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).

Was not that truth originally preached by Paul? And what about this from the same epistle?:

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).

Was not that originally preached by Paul and is it not an integral part of his gospel? And the same can be said about what is said in the same epistle:

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit" (1 Pet.3:18).

With all this in view do you admit that Peter was a member of the Body of Christ and those who received his first epistle were also members of the Body of Christ?

patman · Aug 5, 2015

Danoh said:
Consider that you asked about the Law. I answered on that. But it was not their sole means of Identity. Also, I was talking about Israel, not the Body of Christ.

Romans 2:

17. Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18. And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19. And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20. An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

24. For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25. For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 3:

1. What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there of circumcision?
2. Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3. For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Romans 9:

1. I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2. That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Jeremiah 31:

31. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an
husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their
God, and they shall be my people.
34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them,
saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35. Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The
LORD of hosts is his name:
36. If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Ezekiel 36:

22. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

These verses do seem to indicate the presence of the law for saved Israelis during that time. I am not looking finding reasons to think otherwise at this moment, so for now I'll accept it...

But why bring it back?

Why :help:?

DAN P · Aug 5, 2015

patman said:
The context "in Christ" is the only way they are the same. There were in facts slaves, and jews, and greeks and more... This verse means we are all saved the same way, it does not say that there are no longer groups. It is more about your social status doesn't keep you from christ, it has nothing to do with the denouncements of social roles.

I am not sure why we are talking about this?:idunno:

Hi and I mentioned "in Christ " because it is in the text of Gal 3:28 !!

The Greek verb " ARE /ESTE " is in the Greek Present Tense of CONTINUOUS ACTION , and since we are " in Christ " it means OSAS !!

This means , since it is CONTINUOUS ACTION there cannot be Jews iN the BOC as there are no Males of Females in the BOC !!

If I am boring you , just say stop !!

dan p

patman · Aug 5, 2015

Jerry Shugart said:
With all this in view do you admit that Peter was a member of the Body of Christ and those who received his first epistle were also members of the Body of Christ?

(I thought I already said) I believe Peter is in the Body by merits of his accepting Paul's message with his confession. Peter also knew about Paul's writings as I pointed out in the OP to the Jews. But had Peter and Paul never crossed paths, it's possible that Peter would not be in the Body, though he would have been saved.

Do you think Jesus showed a different way from Paul to salvation, that is Jesus required living by the law where as Paul taught that we could be dead to the law?

patman · Aug 5, 2015

DAN P said:
Hi and I mentioned "in Christ " because it is in the text of Gal 3:28 !!

The Greek verb " ARE /ESTE " is in the Greek Present Tense of CONTINUOUS ACTION , and since we are " in Christ " it means OSAS !!

This means , since it is CONTINUOUS ACTION there cannot be Jews iin the BOC as there are no Males of Females in the BOC !!

If I am boring you , just say stop !!

dan p

DAN P

Not boring... just not seeing the reason here. I am looking back over our conversation and it looks like we are just playing trivia

DAN P · Aug 5, 2015

patman said:
Not boring... just not seeing the reason here. I am looking back over our conversation and it looks like we are just playing trivia

Hi and I have quoted Gal 3:28 and I see that the Greek Presentn Tense is FOREIGN to you as it to DANOH !!

You need someone who likes PLAYING TRIVIA , as I am out !!

dan p

Jerry Shugart · Aug 5, 2015

patman said:
(I thought I already said) I believe Peter is in the Body by merits of his accepting Paul's message with his confession. Peter also knew about Paul's writings as I pointed out in the OP to the Jews. But had Peter and Paul never crossed paths, it's possible that Peter would not be in the Body, though he would have been saved.

I find it impossible to believe that those who received the book of Hebrews through Jude were not aware of the gospel of the grace of God. Therefore, they too would be members of the body of Christ. Do you agree?

Do you think Jesus showed a different way from Paul to salvation, that is Jesus required living by the law where as Paul taught that we could be dead to the law?

They both taught that a person was saved by faith alone. And they both taught that in theory a person could be saved by their own works apart from faith. Here is what Paul said about that:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good" (Ro.2:5-10).

Here Paul speaks of God's judgment of man according to his deeds (or works).Those who "continue" in well doing will receive eternal life.

And here the Lord Jesus says practically the same thing:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).

In both cases we can see that it is at least theoretically possible for a man to inherit eternal life by his own works. But Paul makes it plain that no one can receive eternal life by their works, writing that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." James wrote that if you break just one commandment then you are guilty of all.

So if a person is going to be saved on the basis of his works then he must live a perfect life. And the only man who has ever done that is the Lord Jesus. So the only way left by which a person can be saved is by grace through faith.

Now a question for you. Do you believe like those in the Neo-MAD camp that the Jews who lived under the Law could not be saved apart from works?

Danoh · Aug 5, 2015

patman said:
These verses do seem to indicate the presence of the law for saved Israelis during that time. I am not looking finding reasons to think otherwise at this moment, so for now I'll accept it...

But why bring it back? Why :help:?

Because the Law is as precious to the LORD God of Israel - "for ever" - as this proper example of the LORD's "train up a child in the way it should go," Prov. 22:6 - in this child being trained up in its most basic instruction, under the Law [wrong Dispensation, though, Rom. 11:25-29; Isaiah 2:1-5]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ1Tq8hBnW0

Who was the condemning aspect of the Law for?

1 Timothy 1:

9. Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10. For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars,
for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11. According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Why the Law during His Millennial Reign til He makes His enemies His footstool?

Revelation 21:

13. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Why does this appear at the end of the book of Revelation?

Because, as is often the case concerning Israel's Prophets visions, they are not laid in chronological order. Rather, more along the line of a mind map - where all sorts of things intersect with one another in, and from all sorts of directions, as with dreams.

"Only from the mind of..." Mid-Acts, lol

Danoh · Aug 5, 2015

DAN P said:
Hi and I have quoted Gal 3:28 and I see that the Greek Presentn Tense is FOREIGN to you as it DANOH !!

You need someone who likes PLAYING TRIVIA , as I am out !!

dan p

Has nothing to do with my seeing or not seeing - other then my seeing that you and Jerry have been stalking Mid-Acts people for decades now, wherever you find them, pestering them with these several issues the two of you are so neurotically adamant that other Mid-Actsers see exactly as you both do.

Lol - you even pull that on each other - because he is Acts 13 and you are 9 and oh, how it matters to you two that people agree with you.

Put your Greek on he word "Grace" down a moment and actually and try to allow others its liberty.

Yeah, I know, time for more yada, yada, from you...

:bang:

Stripe · Aug 6, 2015

patman said:
It's not just bacteria though, many animals have the meat eating anatomy.

The general answer is that today's organisms have adapted to a dramatically different environment.

Their original design did not necessitate the behaviors we see in them today.

Right after the fall, Abel was herding flocks and using them to make sacrifices in Genesis 4:4. What kind of sacrifice is it when you kill an animal you weren't going to eat anyway? One might say they were used for clothes, but he was bringing "fat" offerings. The fattest of his offerings is only an impressive sacrifice if he planned on eating those. Moreover, God was pleased with this whole thing.

I don't know of any YEC who holds that animals were not eaten outside the garden.

This happening so near the fall indicates to me that creatures, including humans, were always meant, even designed, to eat meat of lower animals. There was no time to adapt to it, Abel was the second human to be born.

Perhaps so. However, that design might just have been a contingency. It seems certain that without the fall, people could have been better off in the circumstances God set them up in.

I used to have the impression that God wanted the world to be vegetarians, and the meat eating abilities of us and animals could have been a backup plan for the fall. But supposing the fall never happened, we'd be overrun with rabbits, rats, dogs, cats, and the idea of being overrun with cats terrifies me :shocked:

We'd have eventually had too many people as well. This objection fails because it assumes no answer exists to the issue of living space for any population.

God told Adam and Eve to multiply. Any idea you have to solve an overpopulation issue must also cater for people.

It just seems that the original gift of plants as food in Genesis 1:30 isn't a full picture or a permanent goal. I think even if the fall never happened, eventually meat eating would have happened.

If your only reasoning for this is to control populations, it fails, as you need a different proposition to control the human population.

The death that concerns us humans is the spiritual death.

Physical death also.

My understanding of MAD in regards to the law is that the presence is that it has a place and a future, and that place is the tribulation and beyond. The conclusions comes from of the other apostles works-centered teachings leads and the assumption that it must have an audience. Am I missing another critical point or is this the basis?

Dunno.

ECT 3 Questions for my MAD and YEC friends

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