ECT 3 Questions for my MAD and YEC friends

patman

patman

Active member
Jerry Shugart said:
Those in the Neo-MAD crowd defy that truth and insist that only some of the Israelites living at the time when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians were in the Body of Christ.
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I see what you are saying, but I can also see a transitional phase happening here. Not all are in the body who died before Jesus was born, right? It didn't exist yet. But after Paul began to teach us about the Body, anyone who heard the good news and accepted it was in the Body. It seems to me that when Paul met the 12 and they accepted him and believed his message they then became a part of the body.

But they still wrote and taught as though the law were still in effect. Do you agree with that statement or do you see it another way?
 
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Danoh

New member
patman said:
...It seems Paul was writing to the Jews too. Does that raise questions for anyone else?...

#2 (I've asked before, but I still struggle to understand) Why is the law going to come back after the rapture?

Paul speaks so well on the benefits of Grace, how we are dead to the law and freed from it the same way a widow is free from the laws concerning adultery. I do not understand why God would put future Jews back under it.

I understand that the tribulation is for the Jews, and at one time being a jew meant having the law, but there were children of Abraham and Jacob before the law. Why couldn't the tribulation involve descendants of Abraham who are saved by grace minus works? I do not see a reason from scripture to fully believe that this component of MAD is a must. Anyone care to show me what I am missing here?
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The Law had as its intent much more than many suppose.

Exodus 19:

3. And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4. Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6. And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

The Law identified Israel as God's people. T this very day, when you see someone in black, with the locks and all the rest, walking about on a Friday, you know what about them - that they are "peculiar."

Now watch misunderstand what I meant by that - because they are neither Mid-Acts [Acts 9:6] nor bother to ask.

The Law had as its intent identifying Israel as God's peculiar people above all the nations of the Earth:

Deuteronomy 4:

5. Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
6. Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
7. For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?
8. And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Thus, the other part of your question - Zechariah 8:

22. Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
23. Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying,
We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

And Isaiah 2:

1. The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths:
for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword
against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
5. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Of course, some will gainsay this. I could care less. Their notions are their own.

Isaiah 59:

17. For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.
18. According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.
19. So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
20. And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Romans 11:

1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8. [According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;] unto this day.

22. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,[/B] There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes.
29. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
 
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DAN P

Well-known member
patman;4406985s. I personally believe Peter was a part of the Body too said:
Hi and where do you prove that Peter or the 11 apostles are in the Body of Christ !!:deadhorse::deadhorse:

I can produce 2 passages that prove the 12 apostles are OUT of the B O C , what doe you have ??

dan p
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Danoh

New member
DAN P said:
Hi and where do you prove that Peter or the 11 apostles are in the Body of Christ !!:deadhorse::deadhorse:

I can produce 2 passages that prove the 12 apostles are OUT of the B O C , what doe you have ??

dan p
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You two are really men most miserable.
 
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DAN P

Well-known member
Danoh said:
You two are really men most miserable.
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Hi and do you have a verse for that ??

When you know the answer , the MISERABLE ones are the one's who do not know !!

One Grace brother came up with one answer and I will produce the other !!

Do you know the ANSWER ?:

Let's have your take , if you HAVE ONE ??


DAN P
 
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Danoh

New member
DAN P said:
Hi and do you have a verse for that ??

When you know the answer , the MISERABLE ones are the one's who do not know !!

One Grace brother came up with one answer and I will produce the other !!

Do you know the ANSWER ?:

Let's have your take , if you HAVE ONE ??


DAN P
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The miserable ones are those who allow themselves to play this never ending fool game you and your kind insist on shoving down another's throat.

You know where the Body began. I'm happy you do.

You know who wrote Hebrews. Well, hip, hip, hooray.

You know if the 12 are in or out. Glad to hear it.

You know that "in the best translation..." Well, halleluiah!

You know that all, or some of the gifts are no longer. Well, stop the news hour, we have a winner!

In short, after many years in all this I - Could - Care - Less - What - You - And - Your - Kind - Think - Or - Not - About - Any - Of - It.
 
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DAN P

Well-known member
Danoh said:
The miserable ones are those who allow themselves to play this never ending fool game you and your kind insist on shoving down another's throat.

You know where the Body began. I'm happy you do.

You know who wrote Hebrews. Well, hip, hip, hooray.

You know if the 12 are in or out. Glad to hear it.

You know that "in the best translation..." Well, halleluiah!

You know that all, or some of the gifts are no longer. Well, stop the news hour, we have a winner!

In short, after many years in all this I - Could - Care - Less - What - You - And - Your - Kind - Think - Or - Not - About - Any - Of - It.
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Hi and this question has been around since the 1960 and when I ask my grandson if this question was still being debated , he said yes .

Back in the 1960 I did not even know what they were even taking about and found one answer from another Grace brother .

When studying Galatians a few years ago I found a better answer !!

It is obiviously , you can not handle the question and are like many dispensations I have run into and I have posted this answer many times on TOL and you must be a Low Informational Dispensationlist and I do know that not all will always agree with me , SO WHAT !!

You seem to be bitter , so lighten up !!

dan p
 
patman

patman

Active member
DAN P said:
Hi and where do you prove that Peter or the 11 apostles are in the Body of Christ !!:deadhorse::deadhorse:

I can produce 2 passages that prove the 12 apostles are OUT of the B O C , what doe you have ??

dan p
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Hi Dan,

I am sure you have such verses. Likewise, I have verses that proves no one was saved... but when you turn the page you can see many were saved.

So the question I have, in addition to "what verses" are "when did they happen?"

At first, the 12 indeed were not in the Body. Paul eventually introduced his revelation to the 12 and they accepted his revelation.

Anyway, here seems to be the "proof" you asked for...

NET Galatians 2:7-10
...when they saw that I was entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised just as Peter was to the circumcised 8) (for he who empowered Peter for his apostleship to the circumcised also empowered me for my apostleship to the Gentiles) 9) and when James, Cephas, and John, who had a reputation as pillars, recognized the grace that had been given to me, they gave to Barnabas and me the right hand of fellowship, agreeing that we would go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
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Peter made his own confession about being in Grace after hearing from Paul:

NET Acts 15:11
11) On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they are.”
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What are your thoughts?

Let me also ask how one enters into the body? Is it not through such a confession after hearing the good news? Was Peter exempt for some reason?
 
patman

patman

Active member
Jerry Shugart said:
So Paul is telling every single believer in the whole world without exception that they have been baptized into the Body of Christ. That means that all of the Twelve as well as all the authors of the NT epistles were membersof the Body and also were those who received every single epistle.
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Hi Jerry. Thank you for sharing these thoughts.

I don't agree with this conclusion, but I understand why these verses lead you to it. Maybe you have other verses that strengthen your beliefs here. From these verses, I can see multiple ways that a different conclusion.

For example who is "we" in the second verse? Is it literally the people Paul is writing to, or did he assign the word to all people through out history who have ever called on God?

Would you say that Abraham is a part of the Body? If not, would you say that James, who apparently died before hearing from Paul in Acts 12, was a part of the Body?

I think there was a transitional period here. While many were saved, not all entered into the body through Grace via Paul's method. Many found salvation through faith and works like Jesus taught, and those are also saints, also made righteous and saved but ultimately belong to a different group, apart from the Body Paul tells us about.

Jerry Shugart said:
Those in the Neo-MAD crowd defy that truth and insist that only some of the Israelites living at the time when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians were in the Body of Christ.
Click to expand...

You think its truth, but it's a conclusion you arrived at. Is its a fact? I think it is too debatable. I encourage you to accept those with different theologies as your own siblings.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
patman said:
But after Paul began to teach us about the Body, anyone who heard the good news and accepted it was in the Body.
Click to expand...

How do you know that Paul was the first member of the Body of Christ?

It seems to me that when Paul met the 12 and they accepted him and believed his message they then became a part of the body.
Click to expand...

How do you know that they were not in the Body of Christ before Paul was?
 
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DAN P

Well-known member
patman said:
Hi Dan,

I am sure you have such verses. Likewise, I have verses that proves no one was saved... but when you turn the page you can see many were saved.

So the question I have, in addition to "what verses" are "when did they happen?"

At first, the 12 indeed were not in the Body. Paul eventually introduced his revelation to the 12 and they accepted his revelation.

Anyway, here seems to be the "proof" you asked for...



Peter made his own confession about being in Grace after hearing from Paul:



What are your thoughts?

Let me also ask how one enters into the body? Is it not through such a confession after hearing the good news? Was Peter exempt for some reason?
Click to expand...


Hi and there is ONLY one way to enter the Body of Christ , 1 Cor 12:13 as the Holy Spirit , BAPTIZO / PLACES ( BAPTIZO here is a Transliteraltion , and has many translations ) all into the Body of Christ .

There are many verses that come to mind , Rom 6:4 where we are all BAPTIZO / PLACED into the death of Christ and in Gal 2:20 where we are CRUCIFIED along with Christ are just a few things .

The reason that the 12 are OUT is because of Gal 3:28 , is because all that enter the Body of Christ .LOSE there Idenity in Christ and the Present Tense which means brings CONTINUOUS RESULTS that If Peter and the 12 are NO MORE Jews in the Body , it is that simple !!

The other verse is in 1 Cor 15:8 and who was the ONLY one ABORTED , that was only SAUL / PAUL and not the 12 !!

If Saul was the only one " BORN OUT OF DUE TIME " a mis-carriage !!

Who is " BORN IN DUE TIME " and there has to be a Timeline , to be sure !!

Please let me know any more clarity !!



DAN P
 
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Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
patman said:
I think there was a transitional period here. While many were saved, not all entered into the body through Grace via Paul's method. Many found salvation through faith and works like Jesus taught, and those are also saints, also made righteous and saved but ultimately belong to a different group, apart from the Body Paul tells us about.
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There were no people anywhere who found salvation through faith and works. Those who believed were saved apart from works:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

It is also a fact that the Lord Jesus said the following to the Israelites who lived under the law:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​
 
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patman

patman

Active member
Danoh said:
The Law identified Israel as God's people. T this very day, when you see someone in black, with the locks and all the rest, walking about on a Friday, you know what about them - that they are "peculiar."
Click to expand...

Thank you for replying with so much from the Bible.

I am a difficult person, probably slower than average. As I read those passages, I kept thinking about how many ways they have been interpreted and the different ways even key words in each one can be meant.

Long before Moses brought the law, God made a covenant with Abraham that involved so little. There were no 10 commandments, only circumcision as a sign. Were they not identified with as God's people, even while there was no law?

I agree that following the law makes you a Jew by tradition, but does it make you child of Abraham? Does it make you a child of God. And I am sure you agree it does not, and it never could on its own unless you were able to truly keep it.

And now we have the law as a lesson to the power of Grace. Paul revealed it to us, and God made us dead to it thanks to Jesus.

So I do not follow the conclusion that the law is needed to mark you as God's people when for hundreds of years before it there were Gods people, and today there are billions who are dead to it.

I do not understand it's part in the future as it relates to God's people. (The only thing I can see us using it for is to judge others who are still under it.)

If God's people do not need it, if they can be identified as his people without it, why would his people return to it in the future? I do not assume there is no answer, I just want/hope the answer to make(s) sense to me.
 
patman

patman

Active member
Jerry Shugart said:
How do you know that Paul was the first member of the Body of Christ?



How do you know that they were not in the Body of Christ before Paul was?
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The "body" is a teaching of Paul, it was an illustration very unique to his letters. He claims originality to his teachings here:

NET Galatians 1:11-12
11) Now I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12) For I did not receive it or learn it from any human source; instead I received it by a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 3:5
Now this secret was not disclosed to people in former generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit,

Colossians 1:26
that is, the mystery that has been kept hidden from ages and generations, but has now been revealed to his saints.
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I consider the Body to be a different organization from the Bride/Jacob/etc. because of the different roles outcomes. For example, there is no tribulation for the body but there is for Jacob. Both are God's people, but God has assigned them different organizations.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
patman said:
The "body" is a teaching of Paul, it was an illustration very unique to his letters.
Click to expand...

OK, but do you agree that by the time Paul wrote 1 Corinthians that all the believers in the world without exception were members of the Body of Christ? After all, here we see to whom whom that epistle was addressed:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).​

So the following words were addressed to all those in every place which call on the name of the Lord Jesus:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

So Paul is telling every single believer in the whole world without exception that they have been baptized into the Body of Christ. That means that all of the Twelve as well as all the authors of the NT epistles were members of the Body and also were those who received every single epistle.

Those in the Neo-MAD crowd defy that truth and insist that only some of the Israelites living at the time when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians were in the Body of Christ.
 
patman

patman

Active member
Jerry Shugart said:
OK, but do you agree that by the time Paul wrote 1 Corinthians that all the believers in the world without exception were members of the Body of Christ?
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Agreed... with the understanding that the believers needed to hear Paul's message and accept it to be a part of the Body.

Jerry Shugart said:
So Paul is telling every single believer in the whole world without exception that they have been baptized into the Body of Christ. That means that all of the Twelve as well as all the authors of the NT epistles were members of the Body and also were those who received every single epistle.
Click to expand...

I still do not see every believer being bound to this by merits of believing Christ alone. They needed to accept Grace to belong to the Body, specifically. At that time one could have accepted "Peter's Gospel" and also found their way to God as a part of the "bride", but not to the "body" Paul speaks of.

Jerry Shugart said:
Those in the Neo-MAD crowd defy that truth and insist that only some of the Israelites living at the time when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians were in the Body of Christ.
Click to expand...

I think it just depends on the revelation that was revealed. If they heard the 12 prior to Paul, then no, if they heard Paul then yes. Still, many of the 12 are mentioned by name to have heard Paul and confessed grace.

Thats my understanding anyway ;)
 
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