Did Jesus have to be made perfect by his suffering?

marhig

marhig

Well-known member
Ben Masada said:
Did Jesus have to be made perfect by his suffering?

If you guys insist on comparing Jesus to a perfect sacrifice done by the High Priest, he would have to be perfect before the sacrifice and not sacrifice first to achieve perfection. This is an evidence that the cross in the life of Jesus did not mean a sacrifice for the sins of another because he was not perfect. He broke the Golden Rule 15 times only in Mat. 23:13-33. Since the Golden Rule covers the whole second part of the Decalogue, Jesus broke the Law and could no longer be offered as a sacrifice for the sinners since he was a sinner himself.
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Jesus sacrificed his whole life to God, and he denied his flesh showing us a true example to follow, teaching us that we are to show love, mercy and forgiveness to everyone regardless of what they do to us. Jesus even prayed to God for those who scourged and crucified him asking God to forgive them. What a perfect example of love, mercy and forgiveness in action. Jesus couldn't be touched by Satan, he was too strong for him and he overcame his evil with love.

Jesus is the only way, the truth and he is the life. And his way is the true way we are to follow. Gods true church are a church not built by the hand of man, our foundation is Christ, we are the living stones that build it, and our mortar is love and we are all held together through Christ by the holy spirit, some may be stronger and others weaker but all those who truly follow Jesus, belong to the only one true God.
 
marhig

marhig

Well-known member
SimpleMan77 said:
First of all, being "made perfect" is synonymous with being "made complete". One purpose for Him coming was to be made "like his brethren" so He could be a faithful High Priest. When He suffered and died he completed the work He came for, so He was made perfect/complete.

And yes, He was/is the fullness of God, manifested in the flesh. He learned obedience for the same purpose - to walk and experience the fullness of humanity. As God he reigns supreme. As a man he learned obedience. Stepping into humanity and limiting Himself to become a man did not mean God ceased to be everywhere and have all knowledge and power.


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Jesus isn't God, he is the son of God. And he was in the fullness of God because was full of the holy spirit and he was in the express image of God.

And he became like his brethren to bare witness to the truth, and being a faithful high priest to God, dead to his flesh, he bore a true witness showing us the way by his perfect example thus reconciling us to God. Bringing us a new and living way to follow. And we are reconciled through him, but we are saved by his life. By the life of Christ being manifest through the spirit within our hearts, and we are covered by him so that our old life is gone and we walk in the newness of the spirit and Christ seen in us and through us.

God doesn't want to see us living by our lusts and loving our fleshly life, he wants to see his son living in and through us and our old life gone, replaced with the life and love of Christ. And for us to bring that life and love to others and to spread his word.
 
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SimpleMan77

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marhig said:
Jesus isn't God, he is the son of God. And he was in the fullness of God because was full of the holy spirit and he was in the express image of God.

And he became like his brethren to bare witness to the truth, and being a faithful high priest to God, dead to his flesh, he bore a true witness showing us the way by his perfect example thus reconciling us to God. Bringing us a new and living way to follow. And we are reconciled through him, but we are saved by his life. By the life of Christ being manifest through the spirit within our hearts, and we are covered by him so that our old life is gone and we walk in the newness of the spirit and Christ seen in us and through us.

God doesn't want to see us living by our lusts and loving our fleshly life, he wants to see his son living in and through us and our old life gone, replaced with the life and love of Christ. And for us to bring that life and love to others and to spread his word.
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Definitely some truth in what you say, but I'm curious: do you not believe that Jesus was God at all, only the son of God - a man with God as His daddy?


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Lilstu

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SimpleMan77 said:
First of all, being "made perfect" is synonymous with being "made complete". One purpose for Him coming was to be made "like his brethren" so He could be a faithful High Priest. When He suffered and died he completed the work He came for, so He was made perfect/complete.

And yes, He was/is the fullness of God, manifested in the flesh. He learned obedience for the same purpose - to walk and experience the fullness of humanity. As God he reigns supreme. As a man he learned obedience. Stepping into humanity and limiting Himself to become a man did not mean God ceased to be everywhere and have all knowledge and power.


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Hebrews 2:17
Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

His bretheren were humans.
If Jesus is a god/man then he is NOT like ""His brethren in all things"".
 
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Lilstu

New member
SimpleMan77 said:
Definitely some truth in what you say, but I'm curious: do you not believe that Jesus was God at all, only the son of God - a man with God as His daddy?


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Adam was a Son of God and he was not a God.
Luke 3:38King James Version (KJV)
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Israel was a Son of God and he was not a God.
Exodus 4:22-23King James Version (KJV)
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
Deuteronomy 14:1-2King James Version (KJV)
14 Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Solomon was a Son of God and he was not a God.
1 Chronicles 22:9-10King James Version (KJV)
9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.
10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
1 Chronicles 28:6King James Version (KJV)
6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.

In fact all Israelites were sons of God.
Isaiah 64:8
But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

I just wanted to make that point because some Trinitarians have confused "Son of God" with "God the Son".
Interestingly, the phrase "God the Son" is not found anyplace in the entire Bible.
0 Bible results for “"God the Son".” Bible Gateway search result.
 
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SimpleMan77

New member
Did Jesus have to be made perfect by his suffering?

Lilstu said:
Adam was a Son of God and he was not a God.
Luke 3:38King James Version (KJV)
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Israel was a Son of God and he was not a God.
Exodus 4:22-23King James Version (KJV)
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
Deuteronomy 14:1-2King James Version (KJV)
14 Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Solomon was a Son of God and he was not a God.
1 Chronicles 22:9-10King James Version (KJV)
9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.
10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
1 Chronicles 28:6King James Version (KJV)
6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.

In fact all Israelites were sons of God.
Isaiah 64:8
But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

I just wanted to make that point because some Trinitarians have confused "Son of God" with "God the Son".
Interestingly, the phrase "God the Son" is not found anyplace in the entire Bible.
0 Bible results for “"God the Son".” Bible Gateway search result.
Click to expand...

You're right in some ways. No, "God the Son" isn't in scripture. The concept isn't even there. As a man, in a biological sense, Jesus was the son of God & Mary.

However, the fact that he was a man doesn't take away from the fact that He was God who became a man. Not God the Son who became a man, the one, true, singular God of eternity who became a man. He is the only person ever with a dual identity and nature.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Paul said "God was received up into glory"

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Lilstu

New member
SimpleMan77 said:
You're right in some ways. No, "God the Son" isn't in scripture. The concept isn't even there. As a man, in a biological sense, Jesus was the son of God & Mary.

However, the fact that he was a man doesn't take away from the fact that He was God who became a man. Not God the Son who became a man, the one, true, singular God of eternity who became a man. He is the only person ever with a dual identity and nature.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Paul said "God was received up into glory"

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Click to expand...

1 Timothy 3:16New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory.

My Bible reads differently. I think you are using a KJV which was corrupted by the Trinitarians,
 
S

SimpleMan77

New member
Lilstu said:
1 Timothy 3:16New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory.

My Bible reads differently. I think you are using a KJV which was corrupted by the Trinitarians,
Click to expand...

The Greek word is "theos" in many Greek manuscripts, so I won't debate you on that. There are dozens of other scriptures that prove he is God.

Titus 2:13-14
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Here is your version (NASB)

Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus


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marhig

marhig

Well-known member
SimpleMan77 said:
Definitely some truth in what you say, but I'm curious: do you not believe that Jesus was God at all, only the son of God - a man with God as His daddy?


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I have to go by what Jesus says, and Jesus says that God is his God and that God is the only true God and that God has sent him, he also said that he couldn't do anything of himself without God and that he is obeying the commandments that he has received from the father, and God exhalted Jesus and he anointed him which shows that God is the God of Jesus, the apostles also called God the and father of our lord Jesus Christ. And it says in the Bible that Christ is the head of the man and that God is the head of Christ.

So I'm going by the scriptures, and if Jesus says that God is his God, then thats good enough for me.
 
marhig

marhig

Well-known member
SimpleMan77 said:
You're right in some ways. No, "God the Son" isn't in scripture. The concept isn't even there. As a man, in a biological sense, Jesus was the son of God & Mary.

However, the fact that he was a man doesn't take away from the fact that He was God who became a man. Not God the Son who became a man, the one, true, singular God of eternity who became a man. He is the only person ever with a dual identity and nature.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Paul said "God was received up into glory"

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Click to expand...
Just wondering then, why would Jesus have to pray to God for everything if he is God? And why would he say that without the father he could do nothing? And why when he was praying in the garden would he say to God if he was God himself, that if was possible to let this cup pass but not my will but thy will be done showing that he was obeying God's will and not his own, why did he have to obey God if he is God? Or why ask God to forgive those who crucified him because he could do it himself if he's God? Or how can he be brethren to the disciples and why call God his father and tell his disciples to call God father too if he was their God? It all doesn't make sense, the only thing that does make sense is Jesus being the son of God which is in the Bible and which he says he is, so I believe him. Not once does he or his apostles or disciples say he is God the son, he's always referred to as the son of God.
 
S

SimpleMan77

New member
marhig said:
I have to go by what Jesus says, and Jesus says that God is his God and that God is the only true God and that God has sent him, he also said that he couldn't do anything of himself without God and that he is obeying the commandments that he has received from the father, and God exhalted Jesus and he anointed him which shows that God is the God of Jesus, the apostles also called God the and father of our lord Jesus Christ. And it says in the Bible that Christ is the head of the man and that God is the head of Christ.

So I'm going by the scriptures, and if Jesus says that God is his God, then thats good enough for me.
Click to expand...

If the Bible says that Jesus was a man, and it also says Jesus was God, do you think it is possible that he had dual identities?

Do you think that sometimes he could speak as a man, and at other times he could speak as God?


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SimpleMan77

New member
marhig said:
Just wondering then, why would Jesus have to pray to God for everything if he is God? And why would he say that without the father he could do nothing? And why when he was praying in the garden would he say to God if he was God himself, that if was possible to let this cup pass but not my will but thy will be done showing that he was obeying God's will and not his own, why did he have to obey God if he is God? Or why ask God to forgive those who crucified him because he could do it himself if he's God? Or how can he be brethren to the disciples and why call God his father and tell his disciples to call God father too if he was their God? It all doesn't make sense, the only thing that does make sense is Jesus being the son of God which is in the Bible and which he says he is, so I believe him. Not once does he or his apostles or disciples say he is God the son, he's always referred to as the son of God.
Click to expand...

See my questions in response to your previous post. If it is possible that he was both God and man, and it was possible for him to speak at times as a man, and at other times as God, I think we have our answer.


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marhig

marhig

Well-known member
SimpleMan77 said:
If the Bible says that Jesus was a man, and it also says Jesus was God, do you think it is possible that he had dual identities?

Do you think that sometimes he could speak as a man, and at other times he could speak as God?


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Click to expand...

I believe that Jesus is the Christ the son of the living God, just as it says in the Bible. I believe that was fully flesh just like us and that he was tempted as we are but he denied everything and didn't sin. I believe that he was in the fullness of the holy spirit making him in the express image of God and that's how he is God with us, because we didn't see the fleshly Jesus, he was dead we saw God through him in his fullness, look at this.

2 Corinthians 5

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

It says here that God was in Christ, not that Christ was God

And God is in his people, that doesn't make us God but sons and daughters of God. The difference though is that Jesus was fully anointed of God and he was the Christ and he didn't sin. We do, but because he has overcome, he is able to strengthen us to overcome too by the spirit, and the more we are willing to lay down our lives, the stronger we become in God. Jesus was the brightest shining light that ever walked the earth and he is the Christ the holy son of the living God.
 
marhig

marhig

Well-known member
SimpleMan77 said:
See my questions in response to your previous post. If it is possible that he was both God and man, and it was possible for him to speak at times as a man, and at other times as God, I think we have our answer.


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Click to expand...
No not really, he wouldn't have to go to God for anything if he was God himself. He would just do it all himself.
 
L

Lilstu

New member
SimpleMan77 said:
The Greek word is "theos" in many Greek manuscripts, so I won't debate you on that. There are dozens of other scriptures that prove he is God.

Titus 2:13-14
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Here is your version (NASB)

Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus


Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Click to expand...

Titus 2:13 Fact or Fraud

Trinitarians continually mention Titus 2:13 as a Trinity Proof Text.
They contend that Paul calls Jesus "God" in Titus 2:13.

Lets take a closer look.

NIV and NASB as well as some other new translations
while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

But lets not jump to conclusions. .

KJV
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

In the KJV, Paul does NOT call Jesus "God".

But here is more evidence that the new translations are bogus.
In the same letter to Titus, Paul says almost the same exact phrase at Titus 1:4
KJV
4To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
NASB
To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
YLT
to Titus -- true child according to a common faith: Grace, kindness, peace, from God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour!

NIV
4To Titus, my true son in our common faith:
Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

It becomes obvious that the Newer Translations has mistranslated Titus 2:13 to manufacture a proof text. Are Trinitarians so desperate that they would use evidence that is not evidence to prove their point?
 
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Lilstu

New member
Ktoyou said:
I think you are nuts.
Jesus is God in flesh. The flesh is the aspect referred to, not the nature of Jesus. He died for our sins, our redemption, not Himself.
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Scriptural Proof Jesus Is NOT God.
John 17:6-8 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.

So as we can see, Jesus was GIVEN everything he had! This all included miracles, doctrine etc. Basically Jesus did not do anything of his own, he never performed a miracle by his own power, he was given the miracles. He never taught anything of his own, rather he was taught by God and spoke what God told him to speak.

John 7:16New American Standard Bible (NASB)
So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.

John 8:26New American Standard Bible (NASB)
I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.”

John 14:24New American Standard Bible (NASB)
He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

So everything Jesus had was from God, from the Gospel to his miracles. God needs no one to give him power, God needs no one to tell him what to do, therefore Jesus is not God.
 
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SimpleMan77

New member
Lilstu said:
Scriptural Proof Jesus Is NOT God.
John 17:6-8 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.

So as we can see, Jesus was GIVEN everything he had! This all included miracles, doctrine etc. Basically Jesus did not do anything of his own, he never performed a miracle by his own power, he was given the miracles. He never taught anything of his own, rather he was taught by God and spoke what God told him to speak.

John 7:16New American Standard Bible (NASB)
So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.

John 8:26New American Standard Bible (NASB)
I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.”

John 14:24New American Standard Bible (NASB)
He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

So everything Jesus had was from God, from the Gospel to his miracles. God needs no one to give him power, God needs no one to tell him what to do, therefore Jesus is not God.
Click to expand...

What about Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Or this one, where the Bible identifies the speaker as Jesus. Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Or here. Micah 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting

And, if course here: Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

And: John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


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