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Thread: Is Universalism Biblical? PastorKevin&Silk Queen discuss

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    Is Universalism Biblical? PastorKevin&Silk Queen discuss

    Silk Queen and I have agreed to discuss the topic of Universalism in a One on One discussion. Silk Queen has said that she just wants to know the truth about Universalism and whether or not it is Biblical. I have found her in the past to be open to changing a view if it is not found to be a Biblical view. This is very good.

    We have also agreed with each other before hand that all things discussed herein would be just OUR words and discussing the Scriptures themselves. No copy and paste jobs from other individuals or groups of individuals or their teachings. It is sort of an "Off the cuff" discussion on the topic of Universalism.

    We have also agreed up front that we will number our questions in a formal debate style (Ex: PKQ1, SQA-PKQ1) solely for the purpose of referencing one another's questions and answers.

    I have made it clear up front and would like to state again that my goal and desire in doing this is to win Silk Queen away from Universalism as I believe it is false teaching and dangerous false teaching. She knows this and has still agreed to the discussion, which says volumes for her openness I believe. She stated she only wants to know the truth!

    SQ and I do not want the thinking of people to interfere with this discussion, so we are not suggesting a discussion thread be started up about this One on One as it is NOT a debate as much as it is a discussion between two people who love God and love His Word. There are plenty of places to debate and discuss Universalism elsewhere on this site (such as the Battle Talk thread for BR XII which has continued as a discussion for over 9 months now!)

    God bless you Silk Queen and anyone reading this as well.

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    SQ, a preliminary question just so I know where you stand:

    PKQ1: What form of Universalism do you hold to? Would it be considered Christian Universalism or Unitarian?

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    I am a Christian universalist, My belief God is love, not saying he don't hate our actions but God will correct us, Not necessarily now in this life but in the great white throne judgment.
    I believe the Great white throne judgement is for this purpose for correction and it will be very painful.
    I feel I am being judged now so if I hold on I won't have to face this Great White throne judgement.

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    Ok, I thought you were a Christian Universalist, but I just wanted to make sure.

    A few questions from your first response:

    PKQ2: Why do you feel you are being judged now, and what form is that judgment taking? By if you hold on now, do you mean being among those who persevere?

    PKQ3: What do you believe is the specific judgment that God will enact at the Great White Throne Judgment? What do you do with all of the verses that indicate this judgment is eternal and not temporary?

    Sin:

    PKQ4: SQ-Could you please tell me what you think the consequences of sin are? Thanks!
    Last edited by PKevman; September 26th, 2007 at 09:30 PM.

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    "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man CHRIST JESUS; WHO GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time" (1 Tim. 2:3-6). "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we MUST be saved" (Acts 4:12).

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    Quote Originally Posted by PastorKevin View Post
    Ok, I thought you were a Christian Universalist, but I just wanted to make sure.

    A few questions from your first response:

    PKQ2: Why do you feel you are being judged now, and what form is that judgment taking? By if you hold on now, do you mean being among those who persevere?

    PKQ3: What do you believe is the specific judgment that God will enact at the Great White Throne Judgment? What do you do with all of the verses that indicate this judgment is eternal and not temporary?

    Sin:

    PKQ4: SQ-Could you please tell me what you think the consequences of sin are? Thanks!
    We are all being judged now sometimes we have many obstacles put in front of us and it is a matter of preservance.

    I believe God raises those at the Great white throne judgement to judge them I don't see why he would raise those up just to let them die all over again.
    There will be no one that will not be agreeable to God at this time.
    I believe the great white throne is for purification.

    Isaiah 45:21:25
    I believe these scriptures apply to all of us not just Israel.
    On Eternal it is possible this could be annihalation but it seems it wouldn't be to hard for God to save all.
    So my belief Eternal is a translated word.
    I apologise if I don't have questions in order yet but will try and be more organized tomorrow.

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    One thing I did want to ask is do you believe in eternal hell for unbelievers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silk Queen View Post
    "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man CHRIST JESUS; WHO GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time" (1 Tim. 2:3-6). "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we MUST be saved" (Acts 4:12).
    Ok let's talk about those two passages: I want to note I am quoting from the New King James as it is a more modern translation and put into our current language. This is important because people today don't talk now like they did 400 years ago in England. So what they would have said at the time when they translated a text may or may not be how WE would translate that today, and thus the meaning can sometimes get lost. I will also examine the verses you quoted in a few other dependable translations, as well as a very important Greek word that is at the heart of that text. I believe it is critical that we don't misquote a verse or pull it out of context.

    A verse by verse look at the passage:

    1 Timothy 2:1-7

    1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,

    Paul is saying that prayer should be made for all men! We should pray for ALL men why? He shows in verse #2:

    2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.

    So he is saying to pray for all men, for kings, and all who are in authority that we may lead a quiet and peacable life in all godliness and reverence.

    Many people don't pray for their government and those who are in authority over them, and they ignore the Apostle's clear instruction.

    3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,

    Here is the verse that I believe Universalists get wrong, and why they always START with this verse when they quote this passage. I know you didn't do it intentionally, but I have seen it done by Universalists and in Universalist literature over and over again. Correct me if I am wrong, but they are asserting that the part that says "For THIS is good and acceptable" is talking about what Paul says in verse #4, as if to say this is good and acceptable that God will have all men be saved. But that isn't what the verses say SQ. If you look at it in context, one thing that we have to keep in mind is that the Greek did NOT have the commas and periods that we see in our translations today. So to assume that Paul is continuing in verse 4 what he said in verse 3 is a faulty assumption.

    Let me break down for you what I believe the Apostle is saying:

    If you put verses 1-3 together he says:
    1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior

    What is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior? That we lead quiet and peacable lives in all Godliness and reverence. (And that we pray for all men in light of this goal)

    So if you consider it this way, it is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior for us to lead quiet and peacable lives. Why? Because our living quiet and peacable lives will help lead men to the Gospel! That is why Paul says:

    4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    Do you see that? The better translation put in our venacular today is that God DESIRES all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. A few other translations of these verses will bear this out:

    I am not normally a big fan of the NIV, but it is spot on with translating this verse:

    1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

    New American Standard:

    1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
    2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
    3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
    4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


    The NLT renders it thus:

    1 I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. Ask God to help them; intercede on their behalf, and give thanks for them. 2 Pray this way for kings and all who are in authority so that we can live peaceful and quiet lives marked by godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.

    Now the Amplified Bible is not always the most reliable translation at times either, but in this instance they have done a good job of getting the sense of the Greek.

    1FIRST OF all, then, I admonish and urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be offered on behalf of all men,
    2For kings and all who are in positions of authority or high responsibility, that [outwardly] we may pass a quiet and undisturbed life [and inwardly] a peaceable one in all godliness and reverence and seriousness in every way.
    3For such [praying] is good and right, and [it is] pleasing and acceptable to God our Savior,
    4Who wishes all men to be saved and [increasingly] to perceive and recognize and discern and know precisely and correctly the [divine] Truth.

    In their interpretation they say "Such praying" is good and right, and THAT is what is pleasing and acceptable to God. I have no problem with this view either. It falls right in line with the rest of the text.

    Further, the word "Will" in this text is the Greek word Thelo which has as its meaning to will, to wish, to want, to desire. So all of the translations that say that God wants, God desires, God wishes all men to be saved are right. That is what God wants. He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
    Now if the Universalist could prove that man cannot and does not violate the will or the desires of God, then they might have a point. However, when we read the Bible, what do we see?

    PKQ5: When we read the Bible, by and large, do we see men ALWAYS doing what God wants them to do? When you look around you at the world today, do you think that men are doing what God wants them to do?

    5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

    There is no other way to be made right with God except through the Lord Jesus Christ. That is what this verse is saying. Christ is our mediator. We cannot approach God without Christ because we are wicked and sinful beings. When we trust in the Lord Jesus, He becomes our Mediator, our Advocate with the Father! Praise the Lord!

    6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

    Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all men. But this does not say that all men will be saved. His sacrifice is sufficient for ALL men who WILL come to Him. This is made clear in other sections of Scripture. John 3:16-18 for example:

    16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son

    Condemnation is an important term and one that needs to be understood. He who believes is not condemned, but he who does NOT believe stands condemned already because he has not believed!

    7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

    Paul was appointed a preacher and an apostle by God and given a specific and unique ministry: to carry the Gospel to the Gentiles. God revealed to Paul what had been a great hidden Musterion (mystery) (see Ephesians 3) and that great mystery was that God had now taken away His special favoritism towards the nation of Israel and had made salvation equally open to all men. Before this, if a man wanted to be saved, he had to become a proselyte Jew. Paul repeatedly declares that God's salvation is now open to all men, and Paul was appointed to be an apostle to the Gentiles.

    I will end this post for the sake of length and address your next Scripture in a follow up post.

    God bless!
    Last edited by PKevman; September 26th, 2007 at 09:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silk Queen View Post
    One thing I did want to ask is do you believe in eternal hell for unbelievers?
    Yes I believe that is what the Bible teaches is a consequence of sin. Scripture calls it the 2nd Death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silk Queen View Post
    We are all being judged now sometimes we have many obstacles put in front of us and it is a matter of preservance.

    I believe God raises those at the Great white throne judgement to judge them I don't see why he would raise those up just to let them die all over again.
    There will be no one that will not be agreeable to God at this time.
    I believe the great white throne is for purification.

    Isaiah 45:21:25
    I believe these scriptures apply to all of us not just Israel.
    On Eternal it is possible this could be annihalation but it seems it wouldn't be to hard for God to save all.
    So my belief Eternal is a translated word.
    I apologise if I don't have questions in order yet but will try and be more organized tomorrow.
    It's ok, it's just a discussion, not a debate. But please be sure to number your questions and answers that way we won't miss each other's points and have to go back during the discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silk Queen View Post
    We are all being judged now sometimes we have many obstacles put in front of us and it is a matter of preservance.

    I believe God raises those at the Great white throne judgement to judge them I don't see why he would raise those up just to let them die all over again.
    There will be no one that will not be agreeable to God at this time.
    I believe the great white throne is for purification.

    Isaiah 45:21:25
    I believe these scriptures apply to all of us not just Israel.
    On Eternal it is possible this could be annihalation but it seems it wouldn't be to hard for God to save all.
    So my belief Eternal is a translated word.
    I apologise if I don't have questions in order yet but will try and be more organized tomorrow.
    Yes every knee will bow and every tongue will confess, and the New Testament confirms this for us. But this doesn't mean that they are saved from their sins. In fact in that same text in verse 24 it says:

    He shall say, Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, And all shall be ashamed Who are incensed against Him.

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    SQ if it's ok I will put my questions for you in blue, that will make them easier to find.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PastorKevin View Post
    Yes I believe that is what the Bible teaches is a consequence of sin. Scripture calls it the 2nd Death.
    One thing I am certain I don't believe is eternal hell, the second death could possibly be annihalation.

    ONLY those who please God gain eternal life with God!

    Ok I will be back on this tomorrow it is a lot to take in.
    I want to be certain I don't overload and not speak accurately, so I will give my mind a rest tonight.
    This is very interesting and I don't want to get to many pages so I won't comprehend what you are saying.
    I will go over what we have written tomorrow.

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    Acts 4:12

    SQ you posted Acts 4:12, I am assuming as a proof-text for Universalism. I noticed you made MUST in all capitol letters.

    Yet, this is not a proof-text for Universalism at all Ma'am.

    5 And it came to pass, on the next day, that their rulers, elders, and scribes, 6 as well as Annas the high priest, Caiaphas, John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the family of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, “By what power or by what name have you done this?”
    8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”


    Peter is not saying we MUST be saved here as if there is no choice in the matter. He is simply saying there is no other way we can be saved except through Christ. There is no other name that we are able to be saved by.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PastorKevin View Post
    SQ if it's ok I will put my questions for you in blue, that will make them easier to find.
    Ok Thanks.

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