Is Islam compatible within Western Society?

Nick M · May 16, 2016

njspolk said:
Mostly.

Mostly? I'm not sure what that means. It is an either/or proposition. The Bible, written by Jews, and the Koran are incompatible. But anyway, God will not make you be reconciled to him. It is voluntary. If you want to go to hell, fine. This is established in our constitution's 1st amendment.

I just don't understand why your emphasis of incompatibility is solely towards Islam.

Islam requires that you convert or face the sword. How do you not understand?

genuineoriginal · May 16, 2016

jgarden said:
Neither Christianity nor Islam is being practiced as originally intended - for centuries, both have been high-jacked to provide pretexts for secular ambitions.

Islam has not been practiced as originally intended since that practice was stopped by the Crusades.
Christianity has not been practiced as originally intended since the time that Constantine made it the official religion of Rome.

genuineoriginal · May 16, 2016

djhow said:
Islam was inspired by the teaching of Jesus and lived side by side with early Christians until the Crusades started. Ironically the Christian west is still invading. Irony can be quite ironic

You seem to have no clue why the Crusades were started.

_____
The Truth about Islamic Crusades and Imperialism

Though European Crusaders may have been sincere, they wandered off from the origins of Christianity when they slashed and burned and forced conversions. Jesus never used violence; neither did he call his disciples to use it. Given this historical fact, it is only natural that the New Testament would never endorse violence to spread the word of the true God. Textual reality matches historical reality in the time of Jesus.

In contrast, Muslims who slashed and burned and forced conversions did not wander off from the origins of Islam, but followed it closely. It is a plain and unpleasant historical fact that in the ten years that Muhammad lived in Medina (622—632), he either sent out or went out on seventy—four raids, expeditions, or full—scale wars, which range from small assassination hit squads to the Tabuk Crusade, described above (see 630). Sometimes the expeditions did not result in violence, but a Muslim army always lurked in the background. Muhammad could exact a terrible vengeance on an individual or tribe that double—crossed him. These ten years did not know long stretches of peace.

It is only natural that the Quran would be filled with references to jihad and qital, the latter word meaning only fighting, killing, warring, and slaughtering. Textual reality matches historical reality in the time of Muhammad. And after.

But this means that the Church had to fight back or be swallowed up by an aggressive religion over the centuries. Thus, the Church did not go out and conquer in a mindless, bloodthirsty, and irrational way—though the Christian Crusades were far from perfect.

Islam was the aggressor in its own Crusades, long before the Europeans responded with their own.

_____
THE CRUSADES: A Direct Response To Islam’s Bloodlust

Some facts for your ill-informed friends/family/colleagues:

— The Crusades were a delayed response for CENTURIES of Muslim aggression, that grew ever fiercer in the 11th Century. The Muslims focused on Christians and Jews…forcing conversions, plundering and mortally wounding apostates.
— The Crusades were a DEFENSIVE action, first called for by Pope Urban II in 1095 at the Council of Clermont.
— The Crusades were a response against Jihad, which is obligatory against non-Muslims entering “Muslim lands’”. (Muslim lands are any lands invaded and conquered by Islam.)
— The motives of the Crusaders were pure. They were jihad-provoked and not imperialistic actions against a “peaceful”, native Muslim population. The Crusades were NOT for profit, but rather to recover the Holy Land brutally invaded and conquered by Muslims…who conquered for profit and as a notch on their superiority belt.
— The lands conquered by the Crusaders were NOT colonized under the Byzantine Empire. The Empire withdrew its support so the Crusaders renounced their agreement.

The Islamic world ripped through the Christian world on a bloody Jihad crusade to propagate Islam. Muslim imperialistic conquest wars were launched for more than 1,500 years against hundreds of nations and over millions of square miles (larger than the British Empire at its peak). The Jihad crusade went from southern France to the Philippines, from Austria to Nigeria, and from central Asia to New Guinea.

djhow · May 16, 2016

the real heart ache of it all is that apparently Jehovah started the Genocidal imperative to kill and is the inspiration behind Christian and Muslim killing in the name of God and the apocalyptic clash in the future.

This reminds me of when the mel gibson movie of Jesus came out and everyone went to see it to stand in the crowd. I thought "imagine your child was brutally killed by a mob and your friends thought it would be a good idea to re-enact it in graphic detail for you to watch?"

I considered how much of the blood lust is mankind's and nothing to do with God

One thing that is clear from the Bible is we were vegetarian in the beginning and then a sacrifice of an animal was more pleasing. Noah, a vegetarian saved all the animals to then reach dry land and Noah built an alter to the Lord and the Lord gave permission to Noah to eat the animals he just saved.

Bit of a puzzler, why would God do that? one thing for sure is that the Bible and our teeth show that we were all vegetarians at one time. Even the animal skins Adam and Eve used were given by God but found by Adam and Eve, they didn't kill the animal to get the skin

Just a few thoughts

PureX · May 16, 2016

ClimateSanity said:
London's Muslim mayor Sadiq Khan believes Islam is completely compatible within Western Society yet studies contradict this claim. Below are the results of a study on a representative 1081 muslims of the more than 3 million living in Britain:

Only 74 percent completely condemn “suicide bombing to fight injustice”;

What does "completely condemn" mean? Silly statements like this render your points, pointless. So 95% "mostly condemn" suicide bombings? That sounds pretty normal to me. There's always going to be some percentage of fanatics and lunatics in any religion.

ClimateSanity said:
Only 66 percent completely condemn stoning those who commit adultery;
Only 53 percent completely condemn violence against those who mock Muhammad;

Again with the "completely" requirement that renders the point, pointless.

I wonder what percentage of TOLers would condone stoning adulterers or violence against those who publicly mock Jesus?

ClimateSanity said:
Only 34 percent would contact police if they believed someone close to them was involved with jihadism;

I wonder how many TOLers would contact police if they saw someone advocating violent action against an abortion clinic?

ClimateSanity said:
23 percent believe Sharia law should replace British law in areas with large Muslim populations;
52 percent believe homosexuality should be illegal;
31 percent believe polygamy should be legal;
39 percent believe women should always obey their husbands;
35 percent believe Jews have too much power in the UK.

These sound about par with the beliefs of Christian zealots who already exist in western societies. So I don't see the Muslims being all that different. They have their zealots, too. But most of them are not zealots, just as some Christians are zealots, but most are not.

ClimateSanity said:
Is the Muslim mayor correct or is Donald Trump?

Since Trump has no idea what Muslims actually believe, and doesn't care, I'd say the mayor's position would be the better bet.

djhow · May 16, 2016

Jesus said to be careful of what you hear because he who has shall be added to and he who does not have, even the little he has shall be taken away. So when someone tells you that you have an enemy and you take that on board it is all you will see, it'll be on the news and even your milk carton. A little yeast leven's the whole loaf so be careful of what you believe cos you'll get lot's of it the good news is that if you don't take it on board even the little fear you have of it will be taken away

djhow · May 16, 2016

Let's not forget that Islam started Universities where all cultures were invited to come and discuss the world we live in

njspolk · May 16, 2016

Nick M said:
Mostly? I'm not sure what that means. It is an either/or proposition. The Bible, written by Jews, and the Koran are incompatible. But anyway, God will not make you be reconciled to him. It is voluntary. If you want to go to hell, fine. This is established in our constitution's 1st amendment.

Islam requires that you convert or face the sword. How do you not understand?

Whoa, hey now. I just don't believe that the Bible in infallible and inerrant. I believe it to be inspired, but I believe the the Bible inerrantly points to salvation; not inerrant all the way. Does that guarantee my damnation? I thought as Protestants faith in Christ is all that is required to be saved. Issues on Scripture are important, but not enough to condemn someone to hell. And how are they incompatible?

And not all of Islam. Only Islamic extremists believe that. Christians once believed that too. Why can't Christians work alongside peaceful Muslims to fulfill Christ's gospel? Maybe in doing so Muslims may turn to Christ. Why wouldn't we hope for that? Do you know any Muslims personally? You're putting all Muslims into a very narrow stereotype. Saying that all Muslims convert infidels by the sword is like saying all Jews have big noses and are penny pinchers. It's offensive, not true and overall dangerous.

Jesus wants love and restoration in his name. Not condemnation and death. How does that mindset make us any different from other religious extremists?

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Nick M · May 16, 2016

njspolk said:
I believe the the Bible inerrantly points to salvation; not inerrant all the way. Does that guarantee my damnation?

It depends. There is a way to God through Israel, and through the fall of Israel. It just depends on what you believe.

I thought as Protestants faith in Christ is all that is required to be saved.

You thought wrong. No issue. Go sit in a "Pentecostal" service sometime. They are "protestant" and all are headed to hell.

Issues on Scripture are important, but not enough to condemn someone to hell.

The point of the Holy Bible is to reveal the Lord Jesus Christ. He came to save the world and condemn those that reject him. So yes, scriptures and the rejection of it sends you to hell.

And how are they incompatible?

The US Constitution and islam? That is answered. Convert or face the sword does not fly with a civilized person or the part about establishing a religion.

And not all of Islam. Only Islamic extremists believe that.

When you know more about islam, come back an talk about it.

Nick M · May 16, 2016

London's new muslim mayor said:
Western liberal values are incompatible with mainstream Islam

njspolk · May 16, 2016

Nick M said:
It depends. There is a way to God through Israel, and through the fall of Israel. It just depends on what you believe.

You thought wrong. No issue. Go sit in a "Pentecostal" service sometime. They are "protestant" and all are headed to hell.

The point of the Holy Bible is to reveal the Lord Jesus Christ. He came to save the world and condemn those that reject him. So yes, scriptures and the rejection of it sends you to hell.

The US Constitution and islam? That is answered. Convert or face the sword does not fly with a civilized person or the part about establishing a religion.

When you know more about islam, come back an talk about it.

Everything you're saying you just assume you're correct. That's the first thing wrong with everything that you're saying. Once you assume you're an expert and that what you believe is the "end all be all" there's no room for others to take part in the conversation.

Your websites you have say they're "non-partisan" and based on "facts." Good one. Those websites are just as non-partisan and factually based as Fox News, Glenn Beck and all those other fear mongering "prophets."

Christ calls us to love and be humble. In order to save souls and have discussions one needs to be humble, or in this forum's case, Christlike. The only gospel you're preaching is one of fear and hate. You can't find literally any of that in Jesus' words.

I think that your words do more harm than good, but I don't think you're going to hell, sir. I would be careful to how quick you dish out condemnation. We don't get to make those decisions and we don't have the right to divvy out that sort of judgment.

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njspolk · May 16, 2016

It isn't "mainstream" either.

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Missy-E · May 16, 2016

The US Constitution and islam? That is answered. Convert or face the sword does not fly with a civilized person or the part about establishing a religion.

Convert or burn in hell for eternity sounds just as scary, does it not?

Are Islamic people "uncivilized?"

Establishing a religion would be a unique concept to Jesus, I bet. It probably would have been written about in a book somewhere I would think.

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rexlunae · May 16, 2016

ClimateSanity said:
So you believe if a similar amount of Christians were polled concerning suicide bombing, the result would be ........
Only 74 percent completely condemn “suicide bombing to fight injustice”;?????

I really don't know. I have no context for that number in comparison to others. That's the problem.

Nick M · May 16, 2016

Missy-E said:
Convert or burn in hell for eternity sounds just as scary, does it not?

It sure does, and God does not require your conversion. In fact, he wants nothing to do with your no-good rotten self.

Are Islamic people "uncivilized?"

Yep. Ask me how I might know.

Screen-Shot-2015-02-15-at-4.45.48-PM.png

I will spare you the aftermath, lest you are faint of heart. Do you know what the "people of the cross" did to lose their head?

njspolk · May 16, 2016

Nick M said:
It sure does, and God does not require your conversion. In fact, he wants nothing to do with your no-good rotten self.

Yep. Ask me how I might know.

I will spare you the aftermath, lest you are faint of heart. Do you know what the "people of the cross" did to lose their head?

This is so one-sided and wrong. These are Islamic extremists. Not the majority of worldwide Muslims. You're preaching hate, not the all-embracing love of Christ

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Missy-E · May 16, 2016

Nick M said:
It sure does, and God does not require your conversion. In fact, he wants nothing to do with your no-good rotten self.

Yep. Ask me how I might know.

I will spare you the aftermath, lest you are faint of heart. Do you know what the "people of the cross" did to lose their head?

Oh im completely comfortable with my place in God's eyes but you sound...a bit...ummm...extreme.

I'll send good thoughts you way, tho!

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Nick M · May 16, 2016

That is main stream islam. They are cutting the heads off of Christians and other infidels. The mayor of London (sucks to be you) said it is "mainstream" to be a jihadist.

njspolk said:
You're preaching hate

The Lord Jesus Christ said hate what is evil. You love what is evil.

ClimateSanity · May 16, 2016

njspolk said:
This is so one-sided and wrong. These are Islamic extremists. Not the majority of worldwide Muslims. You're preaching hate, not the all-embracing love of Christ

Sent from my iPhone using TOL

He is preaching reality. You will never see this level of barbarism among so many of one particular religion as you do with Islam. You have to go back almost a thousand years to see anything similar in Christianity.

ClimateSanity · May 16, 2016

Nick M said:
That is main stream islam. They are cutting the heads off of Christians and other infidels. The mayor of London (sucks to be you) said it is "mainstream" to be a jihadist.

The Lord Jesus Christ said hate what is evil. You love what is evil.

He can't distinguish between good and evil. His idea of "hate" is what mainstream media has brainwashed into his mind.

Is Islam compatible within Western Society?

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