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Thread: Discussion - Enyart vs. Ask Mr Religion (One on One)

  1. #91
    Silver Member Nang's Avatar
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    AMR,

    It is my observation that one can evaluate the worth of their service to the Lord by the amount and kind of opposition one generates. So far, friend, you are on the high road!

    It is not only my prayer that God will give you the time and energy and wisdom to continue and finish answering Enyart's questions, but that all those who read, will do so with humble spirits, and that the Lord will cause us all to be willing to learn as the Scriptures are discussed.

    This is not a game, where winning is all that matters.

    This is a most holy exercise, that all participants should approach in great reverance and awe.

    It is a great privilege to be trusted to handle the things of God and to be given glimpses into the depths of His riches communicated through revelations found in the written Word.

    We cannot learn and be blessed, unless we honor the subjects discussed, and show love and patience with each other.

    AMR has begun a good work in a good spirit and with much wisdom. He deserves our respect and our thanks and decent input and interaction, here in the Grandstands.

    When Mr. Enyart answers, the same courtesies will be expected.

    Meanwhile, may God richly bless and edify each of us, according to our faithfulness to read through, and meditate upon the Scriptures presented by AMR.

    Nang
    Last edited by Nang; September 25th, 2007 at 07:59 PM.
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

  2. #92
    ☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) ☜☜☜☜☞☞☞☞ A Calvinist! ☜☜☜☜☜ Ask Mr. Religion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chatmaggot View Post
    I changed my avatar so as to not confuse others in the future.
    Maybe that was adding to the 'tone' I was receiving. Anyway, as you said we will move onward. I see the topic of the nature of Christ from my 1:1 response, is a source of confusion to some. Will clarify things later today for everyone.
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  3. #93
    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    It could be Jim Carrey and maggots are jerks (no, wait, that was Steve Martin and maggots are just doing their job).

    Anyway...

    I had a similar discussion with Clete. My clock does not change (discounting entropy) but the display changes. It goes through a routine and in that it doesn't vary (24hours in succession).
    We didn't come to conclusion on our discussion, but the statements "The clock changes/does not change" were the focal point of that discussion. I chalked the difference up to semantics and our mutually poor attempt to explain both the immutable/changing facets of the clock.

    Not sure if that helps, but when we are discussing God as He "Changes not" and is responsive to us, I think some of the similar semantic discussion can lead to a similar confusion/disagreement: Changes/doesn't change
    The point you seem to be unable to grasp is that in Augustinian/Calvinist style immutability God cannot go through any sort of routine. No such comment like "God changed/does not change" could ever be made in the Augustinian worldview.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    AMR,

    It is my observation that one can evaluate the worth of their service to the Lord by the amount and kind of opposition one generates. So far, friend, you are on the high road!
    Do you really believe that?

    According to your logic...Bob Enyart is on an even HIGHER ROAD because of all the opposition that he generates.

    Again, do you REALLY believe that ones worth is evaluated by the amount of opposition they generate...or just those people you agree with that generate opposition?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    AMR,

    It is my observation that one can evaluate the worth of their service to the Lord by the amount and kind of opposition one generates. So far, friend, you are on the high road!
    David Koresh must really have been a great guy then, huh?!

    Knucklehead!
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  8. #96
    Silver Member Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chatmaggot View Post
    do you REALLY believe that ones worth is evaluated by the amount of opposition they generate?
    Uh .. .that is not exactly what I said, is it?

    Nang
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

  9. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    The point you seem to be unable to grasp is that in Augustinian/Calvinist style immutability God cannot go through any sort of routine. No such comment like "God changed/does not change" could ever be made in the Augustinian worldview.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    Perhaps that was indeed, my point of confusion (i.e. not the OV perception but my own, as you see it). Clearly it is a matter of perception for the misperception. I'm willing to take a second look but don't forget I'm on the lower end in the club and may need it 'splained a tad more (No idea why I went into Ricky Riccardo-mode).
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Nang did say '...and KIND of opposition...'



    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Uh .. .that is not exactly what I said, is it?

    Nang
    You said in post #91:

    ...one can evaluate the worth of their service to the Lord by the amount and kind of opposition one generates. So far, friend, you are on the high road!
    So I guess not. I left out "of their service to the Lord". Does that change anything? If so how?

    Please explain.

  12. #100
    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Perhaps that was indeed, my point of confusion (i.e. not the OV perception but my own, as you see it). Clearly it is a matter of perception for the misperception. I'm willing to take a second look but don't forget I'm on the lower end in the club and may need it 'splained a tad more (No idea why I went into Ricky Riccardo-mode).
    This will glaze your eyes over (I guarantee it) but just read the first paragraph of the following...

    Augustine on Divine Immutability

    Note that the word "accidental" as used in the above refers to something that arising from extrinsic causes, like, for example the movement of a clocks hands (or the movement of anything for that matter).

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  14. #101
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    This will glaze your eyes over (I guarantee it) but just read the first paragraph of the following...

    Augustine on Divine Immutability

    Note that the word "accidental" as used in the above refers to something that arising from extrinsic causes, like, for example the movement of a clocks hands (or the movement of anything for that matter).

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    Thanks. I'll look it up.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by chatmaggot View Post
    You said in post #91:



    So I guess not. I left out "of their service to the Lord". Does that change anything? If so how?

    Please explain.


    Shouldn't have to . . .
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

  16. #103
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    This will glaze your eyes over (I guarantee it) but just read the first paragraph of the following...

    Augustine on Divine Immutability

    Note that the word "accidental" as used in the above refers to something that arising from extrinsic causes, like, for example the movement of a clocks hands (or the movement of anything for that matter).

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    I thought it was going to take awhile to read. You are right and one would hope regarding the 'glazing' that it is poor translation work.

    For our discussion, you said extrinsic would be the hands, but I believe his discussion would place those intrinsically within the nature of the clock and therefore not subject to extrinsic change. Extrinsic would be my setting it, setting the alarm, or busting it. Augustine gave Sonship and Fathership and hair color as example to this intrinsic value against extrinsic change (his term 'accident'). So he equates 'sameness' as intrinsic movement which is a good distinction for our discussion and perhaps gives meaning to our Changes/doesn't change exchange.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  17. #104
    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I thought it was going to take awhile to read. You are right and one would hope regarding the 'glazing' that it is poor translation work.

    For our discussion, you said extrinsic would be the hands, but I believe his discussion would place those intrinsically within the nature of the clock and therefore not subject to extrinsic change. Extrinsic would be my setting it, setting the alarm, or busting it. Augustine gave Sonship and Fathership and hair color as example to this intrinsic value against extrinsic change (his term 'accident'). So he equates 'sameness' as intrinsic movement which is a good distinction for our discussion and perhaps gives meaning to our Changes/doesn't change exchange.
    No you do not understand what is being said. Anything that can be lost from a thing is not intrinsic to the thing. The movement of a clock can be stopped and is therefore not intrinsic to the clock but is rather accidental too it. If you read far enough Augustine makes this point using the color black in a raven's feather as an example.

    This is a common error people make when they want to think that no one could really deny that God can change in some way, but the fact is that Augustine and then Luther who was an Augustinian monk, and then Calvin after him believed that God is, to use an intentionally redundant phrase, utterly immutable, or as Augustine himself put it "He [God] remains altogether unchangeable.

    The question then is how did they reconcile such a belief with the incarnation and other undeniable Christian doctrines. The answer is that they did not. They made no attempt to do so because they saw need to do so. They merely accepted the incongruity as a limitation of the human mind and not as a real contradiction, despite having no evidence to that effect. If you asked Luther, as you might ask a typical Calvinist today, "Do you believe that God become flesh and dwelt among us?" they would answer "Yes, of course!" and if you then asked them if God is immutable they would likewise answer in the affirmative and if you then asked them how both can be true, if they are consistent (which most Calvinist now a days are not) they will answer with a simple, "I do not know.". They have no trouble and even expect to live with antinomy and find it odd that someone would object to it.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  19. #105
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    BEQ12: Are foreordination and foreknowledge the same thing?
    AMRA-BEQ12 - "No they are not...From these misunderstandings, we see incorrect statements such as the following:

    Necessity of a hypothetical inference...
    If God foreknew Peter would sin, then Peter cannot refrain from sinning. (Incorrect)

    The interpretation above wrongly interprets God's foreknowledge as impinging upon Peter's moral free agency. The proper understanding is:

    The necessity of the consequent of the hypothetical..Necessarily, if God foreknew Peter would sin, then Peter does not refrain from sinning. (Correct)
    ...the actions of moral free agents do not take place because they are foreseen, the actions are foreseen because the actions are certain to take place."

    I think AMR has done a brilliant treatment here. It may not be agreed upon, but for me it opens the further discussions concerning it wide open. (Did I just say 'open?' )

    BEQ13: Is my conclusion from FDR true that, “prophecies of future events do not inherently provide evidence of foreknowledge?”
    AMRA-BEQ13 - "Your conclusion is correct as you have stated it above. Prophecies of future events are not in and of themselves evidence of foreknowledge."

    This is a nice premise for further discussion. It accurately identifies the tip of the iceberg. If I am counting correctly this is 'affirmative' #1

    BEQ14: Is it theoretically possible for God to know something future because He plans to use His abilities to bring it about, rather than strictly because He foresees it?
    AMRA-BEQ14 - Ask Mr. Religion Responds:
    No, this is not possible. As discussed in AMRA-BEQ12 God foreordains all that is to come to pass. As a necessary consequence, God foreknows because He as foreordained.

    This one would have been tricky merely for the vague idea of 'theoretically.' I woudn't quite know how to answer a theoretical. AMR discarded the hypothetical and I think it more accurately addressed the issue of contention than I would have thought to answer, so again kudos to him. By the way, I think in some ways this discussion is better than the Lamerson/Enyart debate because both have had more time w/o the Battle time restraints.

    BEQ15: Is NOAH a clear and specific method of interpretation: The New Openness-Attributes Hermeneutic resolves conflicting explanations by selecting interpretations that give precedent to the biblical attributes of God as being living, personal, relational, good, and loving, and by rejecting explanations derived from commitment to the philosophical attributes of God such as omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, impassible, and immutable.
    AMRA-BEQ15 - "NOAH is not a clear and specific method of interpretation. Please review my answer and rationale for so stating in my previous AMRA-BEQ4 response."

    There is redundancy here ( # AMRA-BEQ4). Again, saving BE time from editing and allowing some questions to be grouped in agreement might have helped move things along. Perhaps in the rebuttals

    BEQ16: Does the Incarnation show that God the Son divested Himself in some significant degree of knowledge and power, but explicitly not of His goodness?
    AMRA-BEQ16 - "No. Christ is God and cannot divest himself of any of His attributes."

    Both a good question and answer here. I'd hope this will get some good meaningful interaction because it is one of the heavy-weight questions in theology needing really clear and thorough discussion. Philippians 2:6-12 comes to the forefront along with the other scriptures AMR cited. This discussion question is in introductory stages in my assessment. Lamerson and Enyart took the discussion here. I didn't see it addressed in depth. Perhaps it isn't necessary. Lamerson answers with a line similarly found in AMR's repsonse. BE skipped it altogether in redress. Perhaps Enyart/Lamerson/AMR are in agreement upon that particular?
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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