ECT MAD 1: Jesus ministered to the circumcision.

I

Interplanner

Well-known member
If faith is the whole point of Abraham, and he was Persian before during and after that moment (if the 'moment' is what matters...), and the bloodline no longer matters, then...the whole edifice of D'ism is twice as worthless as before one realizes this. In D'ism, the race, the blood, the land of Israel all matter ultimately, so much so that some schemes have them being fire-proof and enduring to the end of their millenium.
 
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Interplanner said:
If faith is the whole point of Abraham,
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The important thing is that is was NOT just faith, it was faith with obedience.

Interplanner said:
and he was Persian before during and after that moment (if the 'moment' is what matters...), and the bloodline no longer matters,
Click to expand...

The bloodline is that all of Israel is blood related to Abraham; and, the Savior would come to the world through that bloodline.

You are exactly right when what I said reminded you of John 1:13.

John 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.


See, NOT of human descent...that is about it no longer being according to blood relations to Abraham. Not of human decision...that is about a person no longer being able to call themselves a child of God just for getting physically circumcised. Not of a husband's will...that is about a Jewish man wanting his wife to be a 'child of God' and so having her follow the purification works.

We are only a child of God now if we are BORN OF GOD.

How do you get born of God?

We get born of God by Jesus choosing to save us, and Jesus says he chooses those who believe and repent. We are saved and given the Holy Spirit to live inside us---we are then reconciled to God. THAT IS HOW we are BORN OF GOD.


Interplanner said:
then...the whole edifice of D'ism is twice as worthless as before one realizes this.
Click to expand...
That is right!
 
marhig

marhig

Well-known member
God's Truth said:
The important thing is that is was NOT just faith, it was faith with obedience.



The bloodline is that all of Israel is blood related to Abraham; and, the Savior would come to the world through that bloodline.

You are exactly right when what I said reminded you of John 1:13.

John 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.


See, NOT of human descent...that is about it no longer being according to blood relations to Abraham. Not of human decision...that is about a person no longer being able to call themselves a child of God just for getting physically circumcised. Not of a husband's will...that is about a Jewish man wanting his wife to be a 'child of God' and so having her follow the purification works.

We are only a child of God now if we are BORN OF GOD.

How do you get born of God?

We get born of God by Jesus choosing to save us, and Jesus says he chooses those who believe and repent. We are saved and given the Holy Spirit to live inside us---we are then reconciled to God. THAT IS HOW we are BORN OF GOD.



That is right!
Click to expand...

I don't seem able to like posts yet, but I agree with what you have been saying about Abraham. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, by believing in him and repenting and we are saved daily from sinning by the Holy spirit within, who is changing our hearts daily if we keep our faith. We are born of God through the new birth, by the holy spirit dwelling in our hearts and doing the works of God within. We become born again by the spirit putting us to death daily so that the spirit of christ can live through us. Thus we are casting off the old man and putting on the new. And by our fruits others will know that we belong to God.

Galatians 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise
 
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marhig said:
I don't seem able to like posts yet, but I agree with what you have been saying about Abraham. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, by believing in him and repenting and we are saved daily from sinning by the Holy spirit within, who is changing our hearts daily if we keep our faith. We are born of God through the new birth, by the holy spirit dwelling in our hearts and doing the works of God within. We become born again by the spirit putting us to death daily so that the spirit of christ can live through us. Thus we are casting off the old man and putting on the new. And by our fruits others will know that we belong to God.

Galatians 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise
Click to expand...

I agree with what you say here, and so glad that we have agreement.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
marhig said:
I don't seem able to like posts yet, but I agree with what you have been saying about Abraham. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, by believing in him and repenting and we are saved daily from sinning by the Holy spirit within, who is changing our hearts daily if we keep our faith. We are born of God through the new birth, by the holy spirit dwelling in our hearts and doing the works of God within. We become born again by the spirit putting us to death daily so that the spirit of christ can live through us. Thus we are casting off the old man and putting on the new. And by our fruits others will know that we belong to God.

Galatians 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise
Click to expand...


Just to be a bit more exact about reconciliation and the spirit in us. It sounds like you think reconciliation is enough change by us through the Spirit for God to accept us. Please know that God forgives the debt of our sin first; that reconciles accounts (reconciling has to do with accounts just as in today's usage). While believing that the Spirit works. The Gospel is a self-reinforcing message in which the more we hear it, and use it for our debt sin (which unfortunately keeps building), the more we want to honor him.
 
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Interplanner said:
Just to be a bit more exact about reconciliation and the spirit in us. It sounds like you think reconciliation is enough change by us through the Spirit for God to accept us.
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God gives us His Spirit AFTER He accepts us.

We are reconciled to God when we are saved.


Interplanner said:
Please know that God forgives the debt of our sin first; that reconciles accounts (reconciling has to do with accounts just as in today's usage).
Click to expand...

God does not personally forgive anyone's sins unless they come through the blood of Christ...they must repent to God through Jesus and believe that Jesus' blood cleans them.

Interplanner said:
While believing that the Spirit works.
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The Spirit works in those who believed and obeyed. The Spirit works in us by making us want to keep obeying after we are saved, for He is our Helper, our Comforter.
Interplanner said:
The Gospel is a self-reinforcing message in which the more we hear it, and use it for our debt sin (which unfortunately keeps building), the more we want to honor him.
Click to expand...

Where do you get that our debt keeps building?
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
God's Truth said:
God gives us His Spirit AFTER He accepts us.

We are reconciled to God when we are saved.




God does not personally forgive anyone's sins unless they come through the blood of Christ...they must repent to God through Jesus and believe that Jesus' blood cleans them.



The Spirit works in those who believed and obeyed. The Spirit works in us by making us want to keep obeying after we are saved, for He is our Helper, our Comforter.


Where do you get that our debt keeps building?
Click to expand...



Yes, the reconciling passage 2 Cor 5 says that the propitiation is Christ; sorry I didn't mention it each time.

We make some progress, but reformed theology was smart to declare that we are at the same time righteous and sinful. If we grow in Christ, then when we sin in a lesser way than 5 years ago, it may seem to us to be a bigger problem, because 'to him whom much is given, much will be required.' So in that sense (in the same sense as a 'personal best' for an athlete), the debt may seem bigger. Thank God for access to justification when we see that!
 
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Interplanner said:
Yes, the reconciling passage 2 Cor 5 says that the propitiation is Christ; sorry I didn't mention it each time.

We make some progress, but reformed theology was smart to declare that we are at the same time righteous and sinful. If we grow in Christ, then when we sin in a lesser way than 5 years ago, it may seem to us to be a bigger problem, because 'to him whom much is given, much will be required.' So in that sense (in the same sense as a 'personal best' for an athlete), the debt may seem bigger. Thank God for access to justification when we see that!
Click to expand...

I do not believe in reformed theology.

I do not believe the scriptures say we are righteous and sinful at the same time.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Imputation is not the actual nature of a person. Imputation or crediting is the fact that sin as a debt/deficit needs to be balanced by Christ's righteousness for justification; then the person is reconciled (in modern usage 'reconciliation' has come to mean a sort of warming and cessation of equal hostilities, but Paul was not speaking of it in such egalitarian ways!). Our accounts are so bad that Paul points out 'if one died for all, then all (had to have been) dead, and indeed we were.' This is all referring to justification in Christ.

Personal transformation is a joint effort out of gratitude and honor for justification. Justification is the cause; effort to honor Christ is the effect. They are not the same, just as light and heat from the sun are not the same.

So when reformers said we are 'righteous and sinful at the same time' (Latin: simul iustus et peccator), they meant that there are two aspects to redemption: justification in Christ (God's work for us in Christ), and sanctification/transformation in us by the Spirit because of ongoing sin. They therefore warned of two things: of ever thinking we could be justified in our own effort; and 2, that we no longer needed change from sin.

Very solid compared to much of what passes for Christian teaching today, because most teachers and broadcasters are really quite confused about justification. They think it is an 'initial' experience to 'outgrow.'
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
Interplanner said:
Imputation is not the actual nature of a person. Imputation or crediting is the fact that sin as a debt/deficit needs to be balanced by Christ's righteousness for justification; then the person is reconciled (in modern usage 'reconciliation' has come to mean a sort of warming and cessation of equal hostilities, but Paul was not speaking of it in such egalitarian ways!). Our accounts are so bad that Paul points out 'if one died for all, then all (had to have been) dead, and indeed we were.' This is all referring to justification in Christ.

Personal transformation is a joint effort out of gratitude and honor for justification. Justification is the cause; effort to honor Christ is the effect. They are not the same, just as light and heat from the sun are not the same.

So when reformers said we are 'righteous and sinful at the same time' (Latin: simul iustus et peccator), they meant that there are two aspects to redemption: justification in Christ (God's work for us in Christ), and sanctification/transformation in us by the Spirit because of ongoing sin. They therefore warned of two things: of ever thinking we could be justified in our own effort; and 2, that we no longer needed change from sin.

Very solid compared to much of what passes for Christian teaching today, because most teachers and broadcasters are really quite confused about justification. They think it is an 'initial' experience to 'outgrow.'
Click to expand...

I see nowhere in the Bible that says we are righteous and sinful at the same time after being saved.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Justification is an imputed or credited reality; it is not a claim of perfectionism which is a dangerous belief. We are covered, but we are still sinful.

In theology, it is often said that the victory of Christ in the resurrection overlaps with the fact that the world is still evil. The same is true in the microcosm of an individual: we have been raised with Christ but we are still in a body that sins. That will be true for us until death or the 2nd coming.

Therefore, we are sinful and righteous at the same time.

(This is a different topic from the 'war' of Gal 5 or Romans 7.)
 
God's Truth

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There are people ensnared by the devil.

Does that worry, or concern anyone?

It should.

How can you know if you are ensnared?

Look up what others are saying and trying to teach you.

If if cannot be found in the Bible, it is because it is from a demon.

Nowhere anywhere are we told we are righteous and sinful at the same time.

There are those doing Satan's job all around us, and they come as one professing things that are not in the written word.
 
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What is the cure for all of this?

The cure is to obey Jesus.

Repent or perish.

If you do that, then you ARE obeying.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
God's Truth said:
There are people ensnared by the devil.

Does that worry, or concern anyone?

It should.

How can you know if you are ensnared?

Look up what others are saying and trying to teach you.

If if cannot be found in the Bible, it is because it is from a demon.

Nowhere anywhere are we told we are righteous and sinful at the same time.

There are those doing Satan's job all around us, and they come as one professing things that are not in the written word.
Click to expand...


Rom 7 is about the war, in which he says oh wretched man that I am. Sounds like sin. Then: But thanks be to God through our Lord Jesus, because 8:1 there is THEREFORE (having been honest about still being in sin) now no condemnation on those who are in Christ Jesus.

Condemnation has to do with justification. It does not mean we have suddenly become perfect in performance but our credit is restored by a third party--Christ!

Go and really learn justification from Luther, Spurgeon or Brinsmead and then we'll chat.

The doctrine of demons is to think that Romans 7 is about an unbeliever.
 
D

Danoh

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Interplanner said:
Rom 7 is about the war, in which he says oh wretched man that I am. Sounds like sin. Then: But thanks be to God through our Lord Jesus, because 8:1 there is THEREFORE (having been honest about still being in sin) now no condemnation on those who are in Christ Jesus.

Condemnation has to do with justification. It does not mean we have suddenly become perfect in performance but our credit is restored by a third party--Christ!

Go and really learn justification from Luther, Spurgeon or Brinsmead and then we'll chat.

The doctrine of demons is to think that Romans 7 is about an unbeliever.
Click to expand...

In my understanding, Romans 7 is dealing with the issue of the certainty that the Believer who attempts to serve in his own strength, is only opening himself up to - the self-comdemnation the resulting failure to serve in his own strength can only result in.

Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

THAT is the condemnation that Romans 8:1 opens with asserting does not have to be the Believer's reality if he'll but walk in the Spirit, given the fact that the principle of life in the Spirit that the Cross has made possible, is the Believer's for him to mind, access, and or walk in the victory of, by faith.

All that without Luther, Spurgeon, Brimsmead or whomever...

Because all that is what the Scripture is for, 2 Tim. 3:16-17.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
So your 'condemnation' is an emotion. I don't think so. I think he meant the opposite, the diametric opposite of justification. He was speaking to those raised in the obsession of Judaism at the time and clearing it up. As he was.

Sorry but the bible-only people in my life dimmed it or dessicated it.

I think there is only a handful of people in the Christian world who would not die to hear one live sermon by Spurgeon. You are one of them.
 
D

Danoh

New member
Interplanner said:
So your 'condemnation' is an emotion. I don't think so...
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That sense of misery in one's own strength:

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

That sense of joy in the Spirit:

7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

And no, bookworm, I'm not worried about having missed out on Spurgeon.

We can ask him in that day.

And you can bring your book "about" for his autograph.

:chuckle:
 
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