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Thread: Discussion-One on One: Abortion (red77 vs. Turbo)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremiah View Post
    You can now be a fornicator, or adulterer, with anyone, and if secretive enough, not even an "unexpected" pregnancy, will ever expose you to others. Your own conscience can never "completely" convict you of abortion-murder.
    Usually such people who intend to be fornicators or adulterers use contraception and hopefully precautions against STD's so any other bed-partner does not suffer any disease consequences from another's habits.

    Nobody is saying it's ok to end any life.
    It is certainly not ok to condemn and judge victims when they need compassion more than judgment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PastorKevin View Post
    Man Stipe, you have a low view of poached eggs don't you?
    I love poached egg! Bit of toast and not too much pepper ... mmmm-mmm!
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenda View Post
    You are ignorant, nasty and judgmental stipe. I'd prefer to be me than you thankyou
    I prefer that you are you as well.

    Have you murdered any of your children?
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenda View Post
    My friend's little child suffered it too. It was horrendous and what is sad is that some people say vile things to a child victim as if it's fault of the child. Child may get support at home but there is no support in the general community where people wait for any opportunity to point the finger. The child must face the medical and police and law professionals as well as family members of the accused and their friends in normal social circumstances eg on a shopping trip with Mum.
    Yes, Glenda, the child will have to face all of that. But, it is the parents' job to protect and, if need be, stand up for the child in cases like this.

    I'm not pro-abortion, but neither am I pro-condemnation of a child victim or anything they may do (including attempting suicide). That would be heartless to condemn desperate actions of a traumatised child and also against the teachings of Jesus.
    LK 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

    We are commanded to show compassion and mercy over judgment.
    The attempted suicide thing is one reason that I'd be against my daughter having an abortion. I know too many women/girls who had abortions and later felt so much guilt about killing their unborn children that they attempted suicide. Several succeeded. The ones who felt the most guilt (at least of those who told me about it) were rape victims. They wished that they had waited before making the decision to abort the children. With hindsight being 20/20, they knew that at the time of the rape they were not mentally stable enough to make such a decision. I don't think it's a wise thing for a woman who is already dealing with mental and physical pain of rape, including self-blame, to make a decision to abort her child because of the ones I've known who did so and later regretted it so much that they couldn't live with themselves.
    They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles. -- Isaiah 40:31

    Vegetarian - Indian word for lousy hunter



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    Execute the rapist, not the baby.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.


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    Red, have you watched Rob Roy? What do you think of that film?
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.


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    Quote Originally Posted by stipe View Post
    Red, have you watched Rob Roy? What do you think of that film?
    I believe I have at some point in the past, can't remember much about it though, did it have poached eggs in it?

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    No. Go watch it again. Tell me what you think.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.


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    Quote Originally Posted by stipe View Post
    No. Go watch it again. Tell me what you think.
    It may be a while before I get chance to, but rest assured i'll give you my critical analysis of it when I do get around to watching it.....

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    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.


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    Quote Originally Posted by stipe View Post
    I'm still gonna need to see the film again.....I'll try and get it as soon as I can

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    Quote Originally Posted by stipe View Post
    I prefer that you are you as well.

    Have you murdered any of your children?
    No

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    Everyone makes assumptions and judgments according to what is ok by them.
    It's worth heeding what is right in God's eyes because we know from Jesus that not everything is EQUAL in the Law (eg tithing mint is less important than showing mercy ... so there are priorities in the Law about degree of importance).
    Everyone agrees that killing is wrong.
    Does God have priorities regarding the life that is being lost? YES!
    Is the born or the unborn a greater priority to God?
    (Surely the opinion of God is the most righteous and greatest opinion)
    OK ... here is God's opinion so there is no point arguing with me over it. You are welcome to pray and disagree with God about it, but I'm certain that God will not change His mind:
    Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
    Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
    Exo 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
    Exo 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

    To God, the loss of an unborn results in a fine, while the harm of a pregnant woman results in equal retribution to the point of the death penalty!
    One is a criminal offense while one is a civil offense!

    God does NOT give the same priority to the unborn as He does to the born!
    This is God's Law and judgment.

    I'm sure people wish to argue with God about that or try to convince others that God's Law does not mean what it clearly says.

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    Can we trust that response given that you do not believe that killing human babies is always murder?
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.


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  22. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenda View Post
    Everyone makes assumptions and judgments according to what is ok by them.
    It's worth heeding what is right in God's eyes because we know from Jesus that not everything is EQUAL in the Law (eg tithing mint is less important than showing mercy ... so there are priorities in the Law about degree of importance).
    Everyone agrees that killing is wrong.
    Does God have priorities regarding the life that is being lost? YES!
    Is the born or the unborn a greater priority to God?
    (Surely the opinion of God is the most righteous and greatest opinion)
    OK ... here is God's opinion so there is no point arguing with me over it. You are welcome to pray and disagree with God about it, but I'm certain that God will not change His mind:
    Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
    Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
    Exo 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
    Exo 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

    To God, the loss of an unborn results in a fine, while the harm of a pregnant woman results in equal retribution to the point of the death penalty!
    One is a criminal offense while one is a civil offense!

    God does NOT give the same priority to the unborn as He does to the born!
    This is God's Law and judgment.

    I'm sure people wish to argue with God about that or try to convince others that God's Law does not mean what it clearly says.


    Glenda, I will not presume to argue with the Lord concerning His Torah. Thank you for posting these scriptures. I do not know how you read them, but I am quite familiar with the two ways in which they are read. One person sees these as applying to abortion and miscarriage, another sees these as applying to premature birth, and or miscarriage, depending upon whether or not the baby, her fruit departed her body alive, and stayed alive. Or whether her fruit departed, stillborn, or died shortly after her premature birth.


    Are you aware of this common controversy over these scriptures and, if so, have you made a decision on which is the correct view?

    If not, let me explain why I think that these passages do not refer to abortion. Abortion is a deliberate and intentional act. The men who were striving were not intended to hurt the woman and certainly not the baby. Why do I say this? The Torah has just explained the penalties for premeditated murder, and unintentional manslaughter, and the cities of refuge.

    If it was the woman who died, from the accidental attack, the husband would become the avenger of blood, and within his rights to kill the man or men involved, unless they fled to the city of refuge in time.

    Thus I think the Torah is explaining what to do in the case where men unintentionally cause a miscarriage, or premature birth resulting in death or injury to the baby in the womb. I think these passages are "all" about the baby, and none about the wife. We already know what to do if a man accidentally kills another person, or causes them bodily harm. I don't think the Torah is being redundant here.

    The penalty, for the "baby's" person, is also life for life, and eye for eye, etc, just as it would be for manslaughter, except there is no provision for a city of refuge, when you take the life and the heritage of a man and his pregnant wife. Thus it is actually more severe punishment, and not less, as I read it.

    In the best case scenario, the baby survives the premature birth, completely healthy, and the husband decides the fine for the traumam and potential danger and extra expense, now needed to survive and "cope"!

    Does this make sense to you? You are of course free to disagree, and assume it is only talking about the woman, in the other "regards", as many interpret.

    The one thing that seems very obvious to me, is that we can not compare an intentional abortion, chosen by a mother and performed by a "doctor", to this clear case of unintentional, and accidental, premature birth, or miscarriage at worst, as plainly described.

    Do you at least agree with me on this point, and see it in a new way perhaps?

    Shalom!

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