ECT Grace is unconditional but not universal

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Cross Reference

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I made a response and you just left the debate and then came back criticizing me for not interacting. Would be better to stick to actually attempting to refute the charge.

Just one scripture that explicitly teaches limited atonement would help...but you can't because there aren't any.


Hence, the reason for their absences. He, as with others of his kind, do that when they have no answers and/or their Lexicons let them down with ideas on how to dismiss God given understanding and then attempt to lead you on a "rabbit run" away from the subject being discussed with the hope you won't notice their ineptitude.
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Cross Reference

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The Covenant of Grace was first revealed to Eve in Genesis 3:15 when a Seed was promised who would crush Satan. All of the Covenant promises to the OT saints, such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, etc and al the NT saints is confirmed, revealed, was performed, and taught in the Epistle to the Hebrews . . Which Scriptures you MADists refuse to read and attempt to take away from others edification.

Your loss . . .

Your confusion you mean. That wasn't grace to Eve. That was a prophetic word from God. The woman ultimately becomes the woman mentioned in Rev 12:4; the visible church which has ever only been able to "bruise" the head of Satan because of her usurping ways..

If you were born again you would know that.
 

Sonnet

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Here Piper stumbles in trying to explain a sense in which Christ died for all:

On the other hand, we do not limit the power and effectiveness of the atonement. Rather we say that in the cross, God had in view the actual, effective redemption of his children from all that would destroy them, including their own unbelief. And we affirm that when Christ died particularly for his bride, he did not simply create a possibility or an opportunity for salvation, but really purchased and infallibly secured for them all that is necessary to get them saved, including the grace of regeneration and the gift of faith.

We do not deny that Christ died to save all in some sense. Paul says in 1 Timothy 4:10 that in Christ God is “the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe.” What we deny is that the death of Christ is for all men in the same sense. God sent Christ to save all in some sense. And he sent Christ to save those who believe in a more particular sense. God’s intention is different for each. That is a natural way to read 1 Timothy 4:10.

For “all men” the death of Christ is the foundation of the free offer of the gospel. This is the meaning of John 3:16, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” The sending of the Son is for the whole world in the sense that Jesus makes plain: so that whoever believes in him should not perish. In that sense God sent Jesus for everyone. Or, to use the words of 1 Timothy 4:10, God is the “Saviour of all people” in that Christ died to provide an absolutely reliable and valid offer of forgiveness to all, such that everyone, without exception, who trusts Christ would be saved.

When the gospel is preached, Christ is offered to all without discrimination. And the offer is absolutely authentic for all. What is offered is Christ, and anyone — absolutely anyone — who receives Christ receives all that he bought for his sheep, his bride. The gospel does not offer a possibility of salvation. It is the possibility of salvation. But what is offered is Christ, and in him the infinite achievement that he accomplished for his people by his death and resurrection.

This sense (in which 'Christ died to save all') is never explained and so his video appeal to unbelievers is rendered disingenuous since they think the sense in which Christ died for their sins is unto salvation. Piper never disabuses them of such. Honesty demands that he, as a Calvinist, tells them that Christ did not die unto salvation for all men...but, of course, to do so would destroy the very Gospel he attempts to preach.

Limited atonement is simply untenable.
 

Cross Reference

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Here Piper stumbles in trying to explain a sense in which Christ died for all:

This sense (in which 'Christ died to save all') is never explained and so his video appeal to unbelievers is rendered disingenuous since they think the sense in which Christ died for their sins is unto salvation. Piper never disabuses them of such. Honesty demands that he, as a Calvinist, tells them that Christ did not die unto salvation for all men...but, of course, to do so would destroy the very Gospel he attempts to preach.

Limited atonement is simply untenable.

I fully agree with your assessment. Piper's explanation is so convoluted who can understand it? And if it is that bad, it can't be scriptural. I can't figure out whether he is for or against what ever he is trying to get across. It is a wearisome read as most all of Calvin is.

Try this: Redemption is a universal enablement purposed to reconcile the differences between man and God. Salvation is not. Salvation opens the door to making the understanding of it happen. Think about that to see that not all will be saved by the redemptive act of the cross. Some will even reject after salvation, after learning about the cost involved re the abandonment of their lives before going further with Jesus. Piper's problem is that he doesn't at all make that distinction between redemption and salvation. He doesn't know how because of the limitations ala Calvin, placed upon his thinking things through.

Piper touches on predestination. Think, what was the intent of the words of Jesus when He told His disciples to "go and make disciples" Matt 28:19? Make disciples of who, unbelievers or believers? What it says to me is many were already prepared to hear in whom it is they had placed their faith. Job, had he been alive at the time they were sent out in the world to make disciples, might have been one of many they would have encountered along the way who was ready and waiting to hear His precious Name.

I hope that will be received as fair assessment. . . :)
 

Sonnet

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Try this: Redemption is a universal enablement purposed to reconcile the differences between man and God. Salvation is not. Salvation opens the door to making the understanding of it happen. Think about that to see that not all will be saved by the redemptive act of the cross. Some will even reject after salvation, after learning about the cost involved re the abandonment of their lives before going further with Jesus. Piper's problem is that he doesn't at all make that distinction between redemption and salvation. He doesn't know how because of the limitations ala Calvin, placed upon his thinking things through.

Piper touches on predestination. Think, what was the intent of the words of Jesus when He told His disciples to "go and make disciples" Matt 28:19? Make disciples of who, unbelievers or believers? What it says to me is many were already prepared to hear in whom it is they had placed their faith. Job, had he been alive at the time they were sent out in the world to make disciples, might have been one of many they would have encountered along the way who was ready and waiting to hear His precious Name.

I hope that will be received as fair assessment. . . :)

Who wrote this?
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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The forgiving and saving grace of God comes to sinners unconditionally through faith; not by works.

Repentance is not required to be forgiven (justified) by God; rather repentance is evidence the sinner has been saved by God's power and grace, through gifted faith, alone.

All empirical and scriptural knowledge, denies any hope of universal forgiveness (atonement). Such is simply wishful thinking, that only perverts the Truth.

Nick's earlier thread OP includes the quote of Romans 5:18 to suggest that the death of Jesus Christ universally paid for "all" sins, but Romans 5:19 quantifies Paul's gospel message as pertaining only to "many."

ALL men (humanity) were made sinners by the "Choice of Adam." Christ died for the sins of ALL of humanity, however, not ALL will come to a saving knowledge of the death and resurrection of Christ. In order for anyone to receive the benefits of Christ's death and resurrection, they must hear the Gospel and place their faith in Christ as their Savior. Salvation is available to ALL through Christ, as sin was available to ALL through the sin of Adam. (Romans 5:19)
 

TulipBee

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I have had conversations both in person and on the internet with some and cannot recall hearing them preach the gospel of Christ as the power of God yet TB claims God tells Calvinists to preach the gospel to all. What gives?
Question:
Simply stated, if God has already decided all that will choose Him, why preach? Why send missionaries into the world to preach share the gospel? If God has chosen me to go to heaven, then nothing you say can change that, and vice versa. If I have been predestined to NOT be saved, nothing you say can change that. At least that is what I understand from the website.

Answer:
God tells us to preach. That is why we preach. We are being obedient to the Lord in proclaiming the gospel. Also, God uses the preaching of the gospel to bring his elect into the church. Furthermore, God works all things after the counsel of his will (Ephesians 1:11). This means that he works even our preaching and teaching concerning the person of Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the cross, in order to bring his people to faith. We do not know the means by which God chooses his people. From all eternity God has known whatsoever shall come to pass because he is redeemed it to be so. But this does not mean that we are robots. Christians, who were set free from the bonds of sin, have an influence with God in prayer (James 5:16). Though this is a paradox, we are able to influence God who from all eternity knows whatsoever shall come to pass. I like to say that God ordains that we influence by her prayers. Therefore, we should pray that God will save people and that he would use us in the preaching and teaching of his word.

Furthermore, Isaiah 55:11 says that the word of God will not come back empty without accomplishing what God desires. Romans 1:16 says that the gospel is the power of God to salvation. So, we need to preach the word of God and proclaim the gospel. Both of these truths about the power of the preaching means that there is something in the preaching of the word of God that has the ability to change people. Therefore, we are to preach and teach the gospel much as we can because it is the power of the word of God that has effect on people.
Found at http://www.calvinistcorner.com/why-preach.htm
 
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musterion

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I have had conversations both in person and on the internet with some and cannot recall hearing them preach the gospel of Christ as the power of God yet TB claims God tells Calvinists to preach the gospel to all. What gives?

For the same reason TB can't formulate his/her own response to your simple question, but instead has to resort to c&p.
 

TulipBee

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Declare the gospel that is the power of God to save every one that believeth no matter who your audience. After all, no one is guaranteed their next breath, minute or hour on this earth. Why hold out on anyone? And why not tell ALL, no matter who you may think they are, that God was in Christ reconciling the word unto Himself not imputing their trespasses unto them?
Does Calvinism take the wind out of the sails of evangelism? Properly understood and sincerely believed, it does exactly the opposite. Believing that God has a sovereign plan to bring all his elect to himself actually encourages evangelism. It gives confidence to us, God's people, to fulfill our God-given responsibility to spread his gospel. We know that our labor in the Lord is never in vain (1 Cor. 15:58)!
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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Question:*
Simply stated, if God has already decided all that will choose Him, why preach? Why send missionaries into the world to preach share the gospel? If God has chosen me to go to heaven, then nothing you say can change that, and vice versa. If I have been predestined to NOT be saved, nothing you say can change that. At least that is what I understand from the website.

*Answer:
God tells us to preach. That is why we preach. We are being obedient to the Lord in proclaiming the gospel. Also, God uses the preaching of the gospel to bring his elect into the church. Furthermore, God works all things after the counsel of his will (Ephesians 1:11). This means that he works even our preaching and teaching concerning the person of Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the cross, in order to bring his people to faith. We do not know the means by which God chooses his people. From all eternity God has known whatsoever shall come to pass because he is redeemed it to be so. But this does not mean that we are robots. Christians, who were set free from the bonds of sin, have an influence with God in prayer (James 5:16). Though this is a paradox, we are able to influence God who from all eternity knows whatsoever shall come to pass. I like to say that God ordains that we influence by her prayers. Therefore, we should pray that God will save people and that he would use us in the preaching and teaching of his word.

Furthermore, Isaiah 55:11 says that the word of God will not come back empty without accomplishing what God desires. Romans 1:16 says that the gospel is the power of God to salvation. So, we need to preach the word of God and proclaim the gospel. Both of these truths about the power of the preaching means that there is something in the preaching of the word of God that has the ability to change people. Therefore, we are to preach and teach the gospel much as we can because it is the power of the word of God that has effect on people.
Found at http://www.calvinistcorner.com/why-preach.htm

You CANNOT use the book of James as a reference to make your point. Why? Because James says he is writing to the "Scattered tribes of Israel. Therefore, whatever he's saying has nothing to do with the Gentiles. You need to learn how to "Rightly Divide" the word.
 

musterion

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Paul said the Gospel itself is the power of God unto salvation for any who believe.

Calvinism says an individual's prior election is the power of God unto salvation. Believing the Gospel is merely the means through which election is effected in those who were chosen to be saved, but the Gospel, in itself, has no power to save. If it did have, it would be able to save the non-elect as well, which Calvinists flatly deny. So if you're non-elect, you cannot possibly be saved even if you "believe" the saving Gospel. Even if you do believe it and are convinced you're in Christ, if you're non-elect your faith is false. You will fall away sooner or later, or be revealed as a tare among wheat.

Both propositions cannot be true. One of them is false.

Reject the cultists. Have nothing to do with them or their false gospel doctrine of demons.
 

TulipBee

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John 3:16 KJV isn't the gospel of our salvation.

Is it not God's will that all men be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth?
Calvinism is concerned to proclaim the Scriptures. The preaching of Scripture, both within the Church and outside the Church, is the central interest of Calvinism. It is false to conceive of Calvinism as a theoretical, abstruse science carried on by heady intellectuals in ivory towers. With the entire Reformation, it wanted, and wants today, to preach the Gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes.
http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_31.html
 
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