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Exactly! To be in union with Him as Jesus prayed we be, then nothing of God would be withheld from us much as it wasn't from Jesus, the man. . . for the same reason.
ECT Grace is unconditional but not universal
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Exactly! To be in union with Him as Jesus prayed we be, then nothing of God would be withheld from us much as it wasn't from Jesus, the man. . . for the same reason.
Sonnet
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Sure - God will have qualities that no man possess - the omnis and others.
Sonnet
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But there some things regarding God that we don't comprehend, surely?
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Indeed. That being the process of son-ship unto fatherhood in Christ. cf John 1:12; 1 John 2 KJV unto becoming "heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus."
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PneumaPsucheSoma
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Which ones, then, would you consider nebulous? (I'm trying to get a grid for your foundational understanding of God's attributes.)
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Don't aid him in his endeavor, Sonnet. He uses his 'words' to create doubt and confusion.
PneumaPsucheSoma
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When teaching, I begin with God's Incommunicable Attributes and Theodicy before moving on to everything else.
The main problematic issue of cultures today is the anthropocentric focus from Modernism that has replaced Theocentrism.
Your core approach is autonomous and anthropocentric rather than Theocentric/Christocentric. God's Logos is the foundation, not ours. A change of primary focus helps everyone, and that would include you.
Can you present (or refute) a cohesive Theodicy?
(And maybe it would be profitable to broach the topic of Compatibilism that you mentioned a few times.)
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Well let's look at the facts.
Jesus said that God revealed it to him, not flesh and blood.
That means not Peter's ears, eyes, hands, nose, etc.
Not even Jesus himself.
The spirit of God revealed it to Peter's spirit.
That being that Jesus was the son of God.
Matthew 16:17
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
With whom (Jesus) Paul is in agreement.
1 Corinthians 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Why do you think Jesus lied?
Couldn't that be considered treacherous?
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Sonnet
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Jesus didn't lie, but we do know that Judas chose to spurn the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, so what's your point?
The Corinthian verse pertains to mature believers but in no way precludes unbelievers understanding the simple Gospel preached as Paul states in vv.1-5. So why didn't you make that careful distinction?
Sonnet
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No, probably not.
Sonnet
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Nebulous because they are a priori concepts. We could all have a look if you like...unless Nang feels it might derail the thread...perhaps a new thread would be best.
PneumaPsucheSoma
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That would be a vital beginning in many ways, would it not? It's certainly relevant to Ponerology and Hamartiology and Soteriology in regard to whatever is posited about depravity for man, etc.
Sonnet
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PneumaPsucheSoma
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Eternity and Infinity are two of His Incommunicable Attributes. There is certainly scriptural/lexical evidence for them and others (if not all). Such are not tautological; and to insist on physical and tangible experience of God is an obtuse contradiction to begin.
I'd find it difficult to even effectively address Compatibilism without establishing an appropriate ascription of God's attributes.
PneumaPsucheSoma
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And one of the beginning components of any Theodicy would have to be clearly defining "evil", would it not?
PneumaPsucheSoma
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This would be tied to the v15 references to polus (many) articular, and to the v18 references to pas (all) anarthrous.
"The many" is a multitude. "All" is not articular, so it refers to a qualitative all rather than a quantitative all. This stands in antithesis to Universalism.
Also in v19, "made" is not poieo, but kathistemi (technically, katestathesan, aorist passive indicative as sinners; katestathesontai, future passive indicative as righteous). Of persons, to set, constitute, to place anywhere in an office, in a condition.
So not only is kathistemi not poieo, it is also not the other synonym ginomai; to become, or, in this case, to make. To have used this latter word would have actually meant that God is responsible for making transgressors.
Kathistemi used in this regard means that God has set or placed man in a definite place or position - that of the transgressor - but He did not make him a transgressor. The resonsibility is entirely man's.
This speaks somewhat against Supralapsarianism and a time-based "before" for election.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Actually, my Supra view (which is not a cookie-cutter version) agrees with your exegesis.
God purposed to create while determining to redeem the limited creatures He willed to create . . before He created time.
IOW's God did not choose to save souls according to foreknowledge of what they would choose to do, but according to what He knew, before creation, they would be unable to do, as limited creatures.
Different, I know, but it is far more honoring to Godly Truth, than the
Arminian and Infralapsarian views that believers are "elected" in time only because God foreknew who would "accept Him" after the fall.
Foreknowledge is not Election.
Election IS divine and sovereign Determinism to save sinful creatures. This accords with the bolded above, IMO.
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At best, it is a convoluted fairy tale made so partly by your denial man's God given freewill.
Nang
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My theodicy is simple:
God created knowing His creatures would fall short of His glory and manifest sin, but manifestation of sin was the means and way to forever eliminate sin and all its ramifications (sorrows and death) forever.
Man was created good, but made in the image of God, was gifted with moral agency to obey God's commands, giving man secondary cause and effect over his existence.
This "Law" shifted moral responsibility onto the creature to submit and obey the Creator; which would, if obeyed, have honored the Creator as Sovereign . . but man loved his self more than he love his Creator, and tried to be like God . . thereby horribly breaching his creaturely responsibilities; abusing his moral agency, and thereby offending his Maker, and corrupting his being altogether unto death . . which God willed to remedy in the fullness of time (Incarnation), with the intent to bequeath His Christ a redeemed (perfected) and inhabited Kingdom.
God created knowing His creatures would fall short of His glory and manifest sin, but manifestation of sin was the means and way to forever eliminate sin and all its ramifications (sorrows and death) forever.
Man was created good, but made in the image of God, was gifted with moral agency to obey God's commands, giving man secondary cause and effect over his existence.
This "Law" shifted moral responsibility onto the creature to submit and obey the Creator; which would, if obeyed, have honored the Creator as Sovereign . . but man loved his self more than he love his Creator, and tried to be like God . . thereby horribly breaching his creaturely responsibilities; abusing his moral agency, and thereby offending his Maker, and corrupting his being altogether unto death . . which God willed to remedy in the fullness of time (Incarnation), with the intent to bequeath His Christ a redeemed (perfected) and inhabited Kingdom.
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