Arminians' Dilemma

Samie · Apr 11, 2016

bling said:
The Greek word can be translated faithfulness or faith, but since this is addressing Baptized believers it would have to be faithfulness and not faith since they already have saving faith.

The Greek is πίστις (pistis). It is translated 238 times into faith and 3 as faithfulness. Favoring faithfulness over faith seems suspect.

bling said:
Nonbelievers do lots of stuff, but cannot “do” anything worthy of anything including not being able to earn any part of their salvation.

Which is basically what the OP is saying.

Arminians say that non-believers are NOT in Christ. But according to the Arminians, non-believers can do SOMETHING while NOT in Christ: the non-believers CAN believe so they can be in Christ.

On the other hand, Jesus told His disciples that apart from Him, that is, while NOT in Him, they can do NOTHING. Hence Arminians seem to teach that non-believers are better off than Christ's disciples. While the disciples can do NOTHING, the non-believers can do SOMETHING.

And that's the Arminians' Dilemma.

Samie · Apr 11, 2016

Samie said:
Arminians say that non-believers are NOT in Christ. But according to the Arminians, non-believers can do SOMETHING while NOT in Christ: the non-believers CAN believe so they can be in Christ.

On the other hand, Jesus told His disciples that apart from Him, that is, while NOT in Him, they can do NOTHING. Hence Arminians seem to teach that non-believers are better off than Christ's disciples. While the disciples can do NOTHING, the non-believers can do SOMETHING.

And that's the Arminians' Dilemma.

To get rid of the dilemma, one has only to believe that because of what God through Christ did for us in his life, death and resurrection, all are born spiritually alive, born already in Christ. Hence it is no problem believing when one is able to, being spiritually alive.

bling · Apr 11, 2016

Samie said:
The Greek is πίστις (pistis). It is translated 238 times into faith and 3 as faithfulness. Favoring faithfulness over faith seems suspect.

.

The context determines everything and not the frequency. The author is addressing Baptized believers who have faith, but need to be faithful.

Samie said:
Arminians say that non-believers are NOT in Christ. But according to the Arminians, non-believers can do SOMETHING while NOT in Christ: the non-believers CAN believe so they can be in Christ.

On the other hand, Jesus told His disciples that apart from Him, that is, while NOT in Him, they can do NOTHING. Hence Arminians seem to teach that non-believers are better off than Christ's disciples. While the disciples can do NOTHING, the non-believers can do SOMETHING.

And that's the Arminians' Dilemma.

The prodigal son story explains how you can still do stuff for selfish motivations and God will shower you with unbelievable gifts because you have allowed God to do it.

Samie · Apr 11, 2016

bling said:
The context determines everything and not the frequency. The author is addressing Baptized believers who have faith, but need to be faithful.

Then you are saying that all verses in the Bible where πίστις is translated into faith, Paul is addressing non-believers? You just complicate your position.

Faith or faithfulness, it's πίστις that is fruit, and only those in Christ can bear fruit. Arminians teach that non-believers are NOT in Christ. Ergo, they have no πίστις because they can't bear fruit.

bling said:
The prodigal son story explains how you can still do stuff for selfish motivations and God will shower you with unbelievable gifts because you have allowed God to do it.

The prodigal son's story does not resolve the dilemma. The prodigal is already member of the family. Arminians teach that non-believers are not yet in Christ, hence, not yet members of the family of God.

The dilemma arises because Armininas seem not able to believe Christ's words that apart from Him - that is, while NOT in Him - man can do NOTHING.

Again, to resolve the dilemma, one only has to believe that people are born In Christ because of what God through Christ's life, death & resurrection, has done for humanity. Hence, non-believers are able to believe because they are already spiritually alive, being already In Christ. Unless Christ Himself removes them from His Body by blotting their names from the book of life, they remain part of the Body of Christ. And only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life. And believing is overcoming the evil of unbelief.

Looks like Arminians have yet to overcome the evil of unbelief in Christ's words that apart from Him, man can do NOTHING.

Sonnet · Apr 12, 2016

Samie said:
Arminians teach that Christ died for every one, but only those who, by faith, accept the gift of salvation can be in Christ. In other words, people are born NOT in Christ.

But Jesus told His disciples that apart from Him, they cannot bear fruit; apart from Him, they can do NOTHING (John 15:4, 5). And if anyone is able to bear fruit and do something while NOT in Christ, then he is better off than Christ's disciples.

It appears that the gospel Arminians teach goes against the statement of Christ, because for the Arminians, while NOT in Christ and hence apart from Christ, people can do SOMETHING – they can believe and accept the gift of salvation – to be in Christ.

But believing is exercising faith which is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22), and only those in Christ are able to bear fruit.

Will any Arminian please explain?

Your silence could mean indirect admission that indeed you are preaching a gospel that goes against what Jesus Himself said. And Scriptures warn against preaching another gospel (Gal 1:6-9).

The fruits of the Spirit equate to works of the law; Paul taught that no one would be saved that way. Rather, salvation comes through faith. In Romans 4:1-5, Paul explicitly differentiates faith from works.

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

So, clearly, faith is not work. If it were, then it would not be possible to save anyone. Look what Paul says:

Galatians 3:10-11
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.

See also Romans 9 (especially vv.30-32) and Romans 10.

Samie · Apr 12, 2016

Sonnet said:
The fruits of the Spirit equate to works of the law; Paul taught that no one would be saved that way. Rather, salvation comes through faith. In Romans 4:1-5, Paul explicitly differentiates faith from works.

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

So, clearly, faith is not work. If it were, then it would not be possible to save anyone. Look what Paul says:

Galatians 3:10-11
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.

See also Romans 9 (especially vv.30-32) and Romans 10.

That seems not able to resolve the dilemma.

Are you saying that while NOT in Christ, people can have faith?

If NO, then non-believers can't believe. If YES, they still can't work because Jesus said apart from Him people can do NOTHING. And faith without works is dead (James 2:14-26).

So whether you answered with a YES or a NO, the dilemma remains unresolved.

What do you think is wrong with my suggestion on how to resolve the dilemma? Here again is my suggestion:

Again, to resolve the dilemma, one only has to believe that people are born In Christ because of what God through Christ's life, death & resurrection, has done for humanity. Hence, non-believers are able to believe because they are already spiritually alive, being already In Christ. Unless Christ Himself removes them from His Body by blotting their names from the book of life, they remain part of the Body of Christ. Only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life. And believing is overcoming the evil of unbelief.

PneumaPsucheSoma · Apr 12, 2016

Samie said:
I don't think, he was. Paul said all died when Christ died (2 Cor 5:14, 15) and were made alive TOGETHER with Him when He resurrected (Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13). The Arminians do not teach this, neither do the Calvinists.

This is the dangerous slippery slope of Karl Barth's "theology" regarding atonement. In 2Cor 5:14, "all" is anarthrous, not articular. And it's a reference to the audience for the epistle, not the entirety of humanity.

The Ephesians 2:4-6 and Colossians 2:13 passages are according to the same hermeneutical considerations.

But since so few English thinkers/speakers understand Greek articular/anarthrous nouns, it leads to false Barthian atonement fallacies.

PneumaPsucheSoma · Apr 12, 2016

Pistis is a noun. Nouns are not verbs.

Faith, as a noun, is the thing believed; and it comes out of hearing, which is a noun not a verb. The noun of hearing is the thing heard; and that thing heard comes by means of the anarthrous noun Rhema, which is of God/Christ.

Faith, hearing, and Word are all nouns, not verbs. We do not believe, as a verb. The thing believed comes out of the thing heard, which is by means of the (anarthrous) Word of God.

None of these are verbs as action accomplished by any man. Nouns cannot be made into verbs to enforce a presuppositional misunderstanding taken to the text.

"Believing" is not a work. Faith is a noun.

bling · Apr 12, 2016

Samie said:
Then you are saying that all verses in the Bible where πίστις is translated into faith, Paul is addressing non-believers? You just complicate your position..

No not at all, most of the time Paul is talking to Christians and talks about the saving faith they have, but if you’re talking to Christians about something they need it is faithfulness.

Faithfulness is a fruit, but saving faith is something Christians have already decided to express, non-Christians have the faith they need to be saved, but must extend this faith toward a benevolent Creator.

Samie said:
Faith or faithfulness, it's πίστις that is fruit, and only those in Christ can bear fruit. Arminians teach that non-believers are NOT in Christ. Ergo, they have no πίστις because they can't bear fruit..

The mature adult nonbeliever cannot be “faithful”, but does have a faith.

Samie said:
The prodigal son's story does not resolve the dilemma. The prodigal is already member of the family. Arminians teach that non-believers are not yet in Christ, hence, not yet members of the family of God..

Christ, using any words he wants to, had the father described to us twice: “the son was dead” even when the father knew the son was physically alive. So are you saying a “member of the family of God” can become spiritually dead as Jesus disrobed the prodigal son?

Samie said:
The dilemma arises because Armininas seem not able to believe Christ's words that apart from Him - that is, while NOT in Him - man can do NOTHING..

Just like the prodigal son could turn to the father in a “dead” state the nonbeliever in a “dead” state can turn to God, but that is not really doing anything worthy of praise.

Samie said:
Looks like Arminians have yet to overcome the evil of unbelief in Christ's words that apart from Him, man can do NOTHING.

“NOTHING” worthy of even the smallest of reward.

Sonnet · Apr 12, 2016

Samie said:
That seems not able to resolve the dilemma.

Are you saying that while NOT in Christ, people can have faith?

If NO, then non-believers can't believe. If YES, they still can't work because Jesus said apart from Him people can do NOTHING. And faith without works is dead (James 2:14-26).

So whether you answered with a YES or a NO, the dilemma remains unresolved.

What do you think is wrong with my suggestion on how to resolve the dilemma? Here again is my suggestion:

Is faith a work? Yes or no? If your answer is 'yes' then please explain Romans 4:1-5.

Sonnet · Apr 12, 2016

PneumaPsucheSoma said:
Pistis is a noun. Nouns are not verbs.

Faith, as a noun, is the thing believed; and it comes out of hearing, which is a noun not a verb. The noun of hearing is the thing heard; and that thing heard comes by means of the anarthrous noun Rhema, which is of God/Christ.

Faith, hearing, and Word are all nouns, not verbs. We do not believe, as a verb. The thing believed comes out of the thing heard, which is by means of the (anarthrous) Word of God.

None of these are verbs as action accomplished by any man. Nouns cannot be made into verbs to enforce a presuppositional misunderstanding taken to the text.

"Believing" is not a work. Faith is a noun.

That is very interesting - but if, as you say, faith is not believing as a verb, but as a noun - what exactly is occurring when someone comes to faith.

Surely it requires some action on the part of God and man? John 6:45.

Sonnet · Apr 12, 2016

Faith is not possible?

Genesis 15:1-6

After this, the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision:

“Do not be afraid, Abram.
I am your shield,
your very great reward.”

But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?” And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”

Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

PneumaPsucheSoma · Apr 12, 2016

Sonnet said:
That is very interesting - but if, as you say, faith is not believing as a verb, but as a noun - what exactly is occurring when someone comes to faith.

Surely it requires some action on the part of God and man? John 6:45.

Since faith is a noun, it isn't a verb. In John 6:45, heard is a noun. The particple is learned (manthano), which includes desire (changed by/as repentance resulting from faith, the noun); and the verb is cometh (erchomai) in the pinm (present indicative middle).

The pinm indicates continuous and repeated action in the context of representing the completeness of the action or the finished results. The middle voice (not easily represented in English) means action upon, within, or on behalf of oneself.

This is the inward completed and finished work resulting from the noun of faith, by the learner. And learned answers to the verb didasko, to teach; which denotes instruction concerning the facts and plan of salvation. In this sense, it means to cause oneself to know with a moral bearing and responsibility.

All of this occurs within us by the thing heard (hearing, the noun), out of which comes the thing believed (faith, the noun).

This is all inward activity from God granting repentance, and from Jesus Christ being the Teacher. We don't "do" anything. We yield and it is done in us. Man does not effect, initiate, or accomplish his own salvation.

PneumaPsucheSoma · Apr 12, 2016

Sonnet said:
Faith is not possible?

Genesis 15:1-6

After this, the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision:

“Do not be afraid, Abram.
I am your shield,
your very great reward.”

But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?” And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”

Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Nouns are the source of all action. There is no action without a person, place, or thing "doing". Adjectives modify nouns. Adverbs modify verbs that are the action of the noun/s. Pronouns are dervied from nouns.

The noun of faith determines the verb of "faithing". In that manner, the verb is encompassed by, and represents, the noun. God speaking brought faith. His Rhema was the thing heard, out of which came the thing believed. That belief is inner activity and quality for all action of believing and the accompanying inevitable works.

Sonnet · Apr 13, 2016

PneumaPsucheSoma said:
Nouns are the source of all action. There is no action without a person, place, or thing "doing". Adjectives modify nouns. Adverbs modify verbs that are the action of the noun/s. Pronouns are dervied from nouns.

The noun of faith determines the verb of "faithing". In that manner, the verb is encompassed by, and represents, the noun. God speaking brought faith. His Rhema was the thing heard, out of which came the thing believed. That belief is inner activity and quality for all action of believing and the accompanying inevitable works.

This is not inferred from the scripture cited. Abraham (not God) believed (verb) the Lord and he credited to him as righteousness.

Sonnet · Apr 13, 2016

PneumaPsucheSoma said:
Since faith is a noun, it isn't a verb. In John 6:45, heard is a noun. The particple is learned (manthano), which includes desire (changed by/as repentance resulting from faith, the noun); and the verb is cometh (erchomai) in the pinm (present indicative middle).

It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

'Heard' and 'learned' are verbs.

The pinm indicates continuous and repeated action in the context of representing the completeness of the action or the finished results. The middle voice (not easily represented in English) means action upon, within, or on behalf of oneself.

This is the inward completed and finished work resulting from the noun of faith, by the learner. And learned answers to the verb didasko, to teach; which denotes instruction concerning the facts and plan of salvation. In this sense, it means to cause oneself to know with a moral bearing and responsibility.

All of this occurs within us by the thing heard (hearing, the noun), out of which comes the thing believed (faith, the noun).

This is all inward activity from God granting repentance, and from Jesus Christ being the Teacher. We don't "do" anything. We yield and it is done in us.

So Abraham did not believe but God caused it?

Man does not effect, initiate, or accomplish his own salvation.

This would be the case if Abraham had earned it through works. Abraham did not do that; nor could he.

PneumaPsucheSoma · Apr 13, 2016

Sonnet said:
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

'Heard' and 'learned' are verbs.

Heard is articular and aorist participle active.

So Abraham did not believe but God caused it?

This would be the case if Abraham had earned it through works. Abraham did not do that; nor could he.

Faith, the noun, is the thing believed. It is not another thing unto itself. The source of faith is God via Rhema (Word).

That thing believed (faith) is the source for action within/upon/on behalf of oneself, but it is not inherent within us. It comes from God and is given to us.

The danger is in resorting to Barthian theology for atonement that all mankind is "in Christ" and given spiritual life when born or some other time before salvation is inaugurated.

Believing comes from belief. Belief comes from God. He is the source. We are both recipient and agent.

Sonnet · Apr 13, 2016

PneumaPsucheSoma said:
Heard is articular and aorist participle active.

Faith, the noun, is the thing believed. It is not another thing unto itself. The source of faith is God via Rhema (Word).

That thing believed (faith) is the source for action within/upon/on behalf of oneself, but it is not inherent within us. It comes from God and is given to us.

The danger is in resorting to Barthian theology for atonement that all mankind is "in Christ" and given spiritual life when born or some other time before salvation is inaugurated.

Believing comes from belief. Belief comes from God. He is the source. We are both recipient and agent.

Your understanding seems to show an awareness of the compatibilism antinomy. Is that right?

PneumaPsucheSoma · Apr 13, 2016

Sonnet said:
Your understanding seems to show an awareness of the compatibilism antinomy. Is that right?

Not as outlined in the OP, no.

Samie said:
I don't think, he was. Paul said all died when Christ died (2 Cor 5:14, 15) and were made alive TOGETHER with Him when He resurrected (Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13). The Arminians do not teach this, neither do the Calvinists.

This is Barthian fallacy. All is anarthrous followed by articular in both 2Cor 5:14 & 15. Ephesians 2:4-6 is clearly "we/us" as Believers. Colossians 2:13 is also clearly "you/your" in addressing Believers.

Samie · Apr 13, 2016

PneumaPsucheSoma said:
This is Barthian fallacy. All is anarthrous followed by articular in both 2Cor 5:14 & 15. Ephesians 2:4-6 is clearly "we/us" as Believers. Colossians 2:13 is also clearly "you/your" in addressing Believers.

Huh? I don't even know who Barth is.

But Scriptures say "All died when Christ died". That's Paul, not Barth. Was there a single Corinthian among whom Paul addressed his letter, who already was a believer when Christ died? It was thru Paul that Corinthians became believers. They weren't believers yet, like Paul, when Christ died. Yet Paul said, he was crucified with Christ. So were the Corinthians. They were crucified with Christ, died with Christ. And so with us.

Arminians' Dilemma

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