ECT Church organizations really governments biblically

J

jonathanbChristian

New member
So there is a list in First Corinthians of what I believe biblically are ministries. Some call them gifts which some of them are gift related but not all of them. Believing they are all gifts does not fit the whole of Scripture as the gifts of the Spirit are listed and with context we can conclude it was a complete list with the nine gifts. My true arguement is that denoms or Church organizations are actually "governments" or administrations. Looking for administration in the New Testiment we find only pastor and deacon are voted or chosen by church members, good reason only they have qualifications listed in the Bible. In short only they have qualifications cause they are the only ones voted on. You could not vote for someone to have a prophetic gift for example, God either really gave it to them or not. This is ofcourse not where a church organization wants to fall in line, the second to last ministry. They currently play the whole Church trying to put all ministries under their umbrella. I believe every ministry in the list is a complete ministry working together with the others on a limited bases. For example there is a prophetic ministry but the New Testiment limits prophetic messages to two or three in the meeting or administration meeting.
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
jonathanbChristian said:
So there is a list in First Corinthians of what I believe biblically are ministries. Some call them gifts which some of them are gift related but not all of them. Believing they are all gifts does not fit the whole of Scripture as the gifts of the Spirit are listed and with context we can conclude it was a complete list with the nine gifts. My true arguement is that denoms or Church organizations are actually "governments" or administrations. Looking for administration in the New Testiment we find only pastor and deacon are voted or chosen by church members, good reason only they have qualifications listed in the Bible. In short only they have qualifications cause they are the only ones voted on. You could not vote for someone to have a prophetic gift for example, God either really gave it to them or not. This is ofcourse not where a church organization wants to fall in line, the second to last ministry. They currently play the whole Church trying to put all ministries under their umbrella. I believe every ministry in the list is a complete ministry working together with the others on a limited bases. For example there is a prophetic ministry but the New Testiment limits prophetic messages to two or three in the meeting or administration meeting.
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What gifts? What are the need for these gifts if that which is perfect has come? What is the need for a "prophetic message" when we have all scripture?
 
J

jonathanbChristian

New member
I post alot of Charismatic topics. I don't intend to argue the continuation of gifts every post. If you wanna debate me on that please start another thread and then I'll share on that. My intent was not converting cessationist, but to discuse a charismatic topic. At the least you could take it as a study of the early Church. You dont have to club my whole post in the head.
 
S

Squeaky

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The gifts change when one comes to the revelations of Jesus Christ. All nine gifts are in each revelation.
 
oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
heir said:
What gifts? What are the need for these gifts if that which is perfect has come? What is the need for a "prophetic message" when we have all scripture?
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He who is perfect is not come back yet.

When we see him face to face then we will not need the spiritual abilities that God expects us to use.

I John 3:2
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
heir said:
What gifts? What are the need for these gifts if that which is perfect has come?
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Paul wrote about that "perfect" to the Ephesian church. And in the context of spiritual gifts, too....

He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Ephesians 4:10-16

I have a hard time believing that the church is there yet...but even so, the perfect here does not refer to scripture, but verse 12 makes it clearly about those who are in Christ. Not about His Word.

And as far as I can tell, that "perfect" in Ephesians 4 is the same as the "perfect" in I Cor 13. Perfection or maturity. Not of the revelation, but of Christ's church itself.

heir said:
What is the need for a "prophetic message" when we have all scripture?
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If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
I Corinthians 14:23-25
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
Totton Linnet said:
If the perfect has come it sure passed you by.
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How nice of you to say.

That which is perfect is come. Paul was given the dispensation of God, to fulfil the word of God (Colossians 1:25 KJV). We have all scripture (2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV). That's how the Bible believer can confidently say, that which in part has been done away (1 Corinthians 13:10 KJV).
 
oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
heir said:
It says "that which is perfect" (1 Corinthians 13:10 KJV). So not only do you deny the Lord Jesus Christ is God, but you call Him a "that". What a mess.
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Wow! you really have missed a lot when you read.

Matthew 1:20

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Do you object to the angel referring to Jesus Christ as a "that"?

Matthew 6:4

That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Is the thy Father a who or a which?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Romans 1:3

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Is His son Jesus Christ a who or a which?

Revelation 1:12

And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

John turned to see a who? or a that? that was speaking to him.

Matthew 2:6

And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

Is Jesus Christ a that? or a who? who is it that shall rule God's people?

Matthew 6:9 ....Our Father, which art in heaven....

Is our Father a who or a which?

Your emotional knee jerk responses are amusing but not worthy of a serious Biblical student
 
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oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
jonathanbChristian said:
So there is a list in First Corinthians of what I believe biblically are ministries. Some call them gifts which some of them are gift related but not all of them. Believing they are all gifts does not fit the whole of Scripture as the gifts of the Spirit are listed and with context we can conclude it was a complete list with the nine gifts. My true arguement is that denoms or Church organizations are actually "governments" or administrations. Looking for administration in the New Testiment we find only pastor and deacon are voted or chosen by church members, good reason only they have qualifications listed in the Bible. In short only they have qualifications cause they are the only ones voted on. You could not vote for someone to have a prophetic gift for example, God either really gave it to them or not. This is ofcourse not where a church organization wants to fall in line, the second to last ministry. They currently play the whole Church trying to put all ministries under their umbrella. I believe every ministry in the list is a complete ministry working together with the others on a limited bases. For example there is a prophetic ministry but the New Testiment limits prophetic messages to two or three in the meeting or administration meeting.
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I Corinthians 12:28

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

From Young's we learn that governments is translated from kuber or , which means a steering, piloting, directing

Bullinger says it is kubernesis which means guidance

This refers to the person who temporarily commands a ship entering or leaving a particular harbor. The actual captain lets this "harbormaster?" take over the ship because this person knows the waters of the harbor expertly, whereas the captain may enter many harbors but does not know each one intimately like the kuber would.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
heir said:
It says "that which is perfect" (1 Corinthians 13:10 KJV). So not only do you deny the Lord Jesus Christ is God, but you call Him a "that". What a mess.
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Meaning that which will be summed up in Jesus Christ as being the full substance and understanding of the Godhead in Divine Human Flesh.
 
Totton Linnet

Totton Linnet

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Silver Subscriber
heir said:
How nice of you to say.

That which is perfect is come. Paul was given the dispensation of God, to fulfil the word of God (Colossians 1:25 KJV). We have all scripture (2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV). That's how the Bible believer can confidently say, that which in part has been done away (1 Corinthians 13:10 KJV).
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It is Paul's "perfect" scripture which we are following. "Earnestly desire the greater gifts but especially that you may prophesy"

Paul only describes the body of Christ in terms of gifts and administrations of the Holy Spirit.

If the perfect has come then knowledge has been done away....the perfect will be the kingdom of which the gifts are signs.

You deny Paul's "perfect" scriptures
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
Totton Linnet said:
It is Paul's "perfect" scripture which we are following. "Earnestly desire the greater gifts but especially that you may prophesy"
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Passed me by? Nah. Just look at you missing it, again!

1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
 
Totton Linnet

Totton Linnet

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Silver Subscriber
heir said:
Passed me by? Nah. Just look at you missing it, again!

1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
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Your usual stupidity, Paul does not say do NOT covet earnestly the best gifts for I will show you a more excellent way, he says covet earnestly.....and you have not found the love way...

This is the perfect revelation according to you, Paul's letters...why do you not follow them? why do you not speak in tongues? Paul says "I would that ye did all speak with tongues"
 
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