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Thread: One on One: Sanctification (Elohiym vs. Chileice)

  1. #16
    Old Timer Chileice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    That does not answer my question. Let's try again. If you believe one can only be excluded by the Lord for unbelief as you perceive it, then your answer should be a firm yes. If your answer is no, then you concede that their specific sin excluded them. Please answer the question, and do not equivocate.

    Can they REMAIN serial killers after their conversion and have been saved had they only believed in Jesus? Yes or no.

    It can only be a yes or no answer based on your interpretation of Mat 7:21-23, so please don't make me ask again.
    I believe that YOU are just looking for a way not to answer my post. It seems that you are uncomfortable in doing so. Not all questions have a YES/NO answer. I believe that in repenting, the person would turn away from their evil. Obviously you have chosen the most vile sin we can think of. I notice you didn't choose drunkeness for example. IF the person had TRULY accepted Christ but then was somehow, I can't imagine how, seduced by Satan to carry out a contract killing because, if not, his former underworld buddies were going to kill all his family for example, and he succumbed to the temptation, I think he would still be saved. I think the power of the cross and the blood of Christ IS our righteousness and that, even if we fail to live up to our desire to walk in a holy life, the blood of Jesus covers us by faith, not by works.

    However, I do NOT believe he would just go on being a continuous serial killer because he would never have repented and turned away from his sin. I don't think just saying the sinners' prayer without belief is faith. That is why I did not answer just yes or no. It is NOT a yes/no question unless, as you believe, you are either perfect or unsaved.
    Blessings of Peace,Chileice
    "Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." Romans 15.13

  2. #17
    Over 5000 post club elohiym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chileice View Post
    I believe that YOU are just looking for a way not to answer my post. It seems that you are uncomfortable in doing so.
    I stated that I was going to answer your post, so I don't understand how you can believe that. I am confused why you think I should not expect an unequivocal answer from you that I can understand so I can address it. What you are saying is inconsistent with your position in this debate up to now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chileice View Post
    However, I do NOT believe he would just go on being a continuous serial killer because he would never have repented and turned away from his sin.
    Then you must concede that failure to "turn away from his sin" is evidence that he never believed. I don't see any other way to interpret your statement. Therefore, the works of iniquity that Jesus excludes are those who did not "turn away from" their sins, which is the evidence of their unbelief.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chileice View Post
    IF the person had TRULY accepted Christ but then was somehow, I can't imagine how, seduced by Satan to carry out a contract killing because, if not, his former underworld buddies were going to kill all his family for example, and he succumbed to the temptation, I think he would still be saved.
    What you just said is that a person can commit murder in spite of grace. That is impossible.

    I will respond to your previous post now that you have clarified your position.
    "It is easier to contend with evil at the first than at the last." - Leonardo da Vinci

  3. #18
    Over 5000 post club elohiym's Avatar
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    Dennis Rader is a serial killer who murdered at least 10 people in Kansas between 1974 and 1991. He was known as the BTK killer, which stands for Bind, Torture and Kill. He was also a member of Christ Lutheran Church. He had been a member for about 30 years and had been elected president of the Congregation Council. While discussing his religion on Dateline NBC, Rader stated, "you know, according to the bible and Christianity, you can do terrible things and be accepted, but you can’t keep doing it you know." (Source)

    Rader, shared my opponents belief in progressive sanctification. It was that faulty understanding that caused him to believe hat he was accepted while he did terrible things. Had someone actually shared the truth with him that we must turn from sin completely, and explained to him how that can be done, who knows how many of his murders could have been prevented. The difference between this serial killer and my opponent, is that the serial killer believed "you can’t keep doing it" and be saved. My opponent clearly believes that one can continue to murder and be saved, which makes his doctrine potentially more dangerous than Rader's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chileice View Post
    IF the person had TRULY accepted Christ but then was somehow, I can't imagine how, seduced by Satan to carry out a contract killing...I think he would still be saved.
    We can know with certainty that the BTK Killer was not born of God, and that my opponents position regarding the "contract killing" above is untenable based on God's word. The Apostle John wrote, "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him" (1Jo 3:15), and, "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now" (1Jo 2:9 see also 1Jo 2:11; and 1Jo 4:20). Therefore, we can see that one cannot truly accept Christ and continue to be a murderer, nor can they even continue to hate their brother, which God equates with murder.

    My opponent has asserted that I have "chosen the most vile sin" I can think of, as though that somehow bolsters his position. Paul wrote, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." Jesus will say "depart from me," to all those workers of iniquity, too. My opponent has asserted that they can continue to do those things and be saved as long as they "accept Christ," which is nothing more that a powerless cliché the way he uses the term.

    Later in this debate I will explain what true sanctification is, and how one can be completely free from sin without being under the law. Jesus said, "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light" (Mt 11:30). I hope to show how easy and light the truth is, and how someone can follow him to victory without sin.



    My response to your answers to my questions:
    --------------------------------------------------


    Question 6: Do you agree that we can and should completely stop sinning?

    Answer: No. I think we should strive for that but it was for our sins that Jesus died. If I can stop sinning, I have no need of Christ...



    It is such a belief that leads to modern churches having serial killers and child molesters in positions of authority and in the pews. Jesus died to free us from sin, not the guilt or penalty if we continue to sin. If one cannot stop sinning, then one will remain a servant of sin (John 8:34). One cannot serve two masters (Mat 6:24).


    Question 7: What is your standard of righteousness specifically?

    Answer: JESUS is my righteousness. I do NOT trust in my own righteousness...



    I don't know what you mean by your "own righteousness," since I wasn't aware that a person had their own righteousness according to the Bible. Naturally, you cannot trust in something that you do not believe exists. If Jesus is your standard of righteousness, then I am puzzled why you claim we can not meet his standard and be like him without sin. His standard was sinless perfection. It sounds like you are claiming that you can sin because Jesus gives you a license to.

    Question 8: What is your standard of sin, the mark you can miss that proves you sin?

    Let me be clear on this question so that you do not equivocate or answer with another cliché. You used the example of drunkenness as sin. How do you know drunkenness is a sin, and how drunk is too much. Where is the law, rule or standard you are following to make that determination, if it is not your subjective opinion.


    My answers to your questions:
    --------------------------------


    Question 15 a, b: What religious group do you affiliate yourself with? If you are not actually a “member” of a church, are you in sympathy with a particular movement or group such as Church of God, Anderson Indiana; The Salvation Army; Church of the Nazarene or some independent holiness movement?

    [a] I affiliate with no "church" or denomination, but have a home church with my family. [b] I am not in sympathy with any movement anywhere, only the Holy Spirit.

    Question 16: Then why would Jesus ask Peter to forgive a person 490 times and God would refuse to forgive us more than once?

    First, God is not a man (Num 23:19). Second, "to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little" (Luke 7:47). Therefore, whoever is forgiven much, loves much. It is not God that refuses to forgive, but the sinner who refuses to repent and rejects the forgiveness offered.

    Question 17a, b: What is your standard of sin? What does SIN mean to YOU?

    [a] Whatever is not faith is sin (Rom 14:23). [b] Sin means transgression of the law (1Jo 3:4).

    Question 18: When DID Peter convert?

    I don't know when Peter was converted. I only know that he was not converted when Jesus told him that he wasn't, just prior to the cross (Luke 22:32).
    "It is easier to contend with evil at the first than at the last." - Leonardo da Vinci

  4. #19
    Old Timer Chileice's Avatar
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    My opponent in this debate makes a very concerted effort to attempt to sway his readers by portraying me as some supporter of murderers and others who live in continuous sin. He, of course is trying to twist my position in order to further his own self-styled religion.
    By his own admission, he follows no one, has no religious affiliation and just has his own house church. I am not opposed to house churches. I think they can be a very effective way of spreading the Gospel. However, he seems to have no accountability to anyone other than to himself when it comes to making doctrine. His claims to perfection fly in the face of vast amounts of scripture and his view of sanctification has yet to be spelled out. He says he will do it later in the debate. Why not sooner than later? Could it be that he does not want me to have anything that I can scrutinize?
    I am willing to admit that I am a Baptist and I will recur to the writings of a fellow Baptist, R E O White, the former principal of Scottish Baptist College. I agree with what he has to say about sinless perfection, and so, instead of inventing my own thing, I will let you read what he wrote on this subject:

    Sinless Perfection
    How far does sanctification go? References to "perfection" (“teleiotes”, Col. 3:14); the call to "perfecting holiness" (2 Cor. 7:1); misunderstanding of "sanctification" in Hebrews; assurances like "our old self was crucified. . . that the sinful body might be destroyed," "no longer in bondage to sin," "sin will have no dominion over you," "set free from sin. . . slaves of righteousness," "no one who abides in him sins," "anyone born of God does not sin," "he cannot sin", such thoughts have ever kept alive the dream of sinlessness in this life
    To dilute the scriptural challenge seems disloyal to the absolute Christian standard, which is certainly not abated in the NT. Yet it must be said that the root “telei” - does not mean "sinless," "incapable of sinning," but "fulfilling its appointed end, complete, mature" (even "all inclusively complete," Matt. 5:48). Such all roundness and maturity are clearly part of the Christian's goal. Paul's denial that he is already "perfect," and his exhortations to ongoing sanctification, show that he does not think a final, completed sanctification can be claimed in this life. Though the Christian who has died with Christ is freed from the bondage of sin, and need not, ought not, and at his best, does not sin, yet he must continually reaffirm his death with Christ and his yielding to God (Rom. 6:11, 13, 16).
    John's warning that "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us," and his insistence on the continual forgiveness and advocacy of Christ available for all Christians (1 John 1:7 - 2:2), shows that he too does not think the Christian sinless. That is also implied in 3:3 - 10, where John details some fourteen reasons that the Christian ought not to continue to practice sin, as certain Gnostics claimed that the wise man may.
    So long as he is "in this body," the Christian continues to be tempted, continues sometimes to fall, growing more sensitive to sin as he lives nearer to God. But he will continue to repent, and to seek forgiveness, never acquiescing, never making excuses, never surrendering, but ever desiring to be further changed into Christ's image, stage by stage, as by the Lord, the Spirit.
    By R E O White - former Principal of Scottish Baptist College
    Source: http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/sanctifi.htm


    QUESTION 19: Will you now, in this next post please explain your view of sanctification, since that what this discussion is all about?

    QUESTION 20: If you have truly discovered the key to perfection without being under the law, why would you wait to reveal such Good News?

    The ramblings of a disturbed man like Dennis Rader should not force us to believe there are only two options: perfection or utter depravity. Real life tells us over and over that Christians sin. That does NOT mean we want to, or ought to, or condone it. It just means that our sanctification is not complete and that God will complete it at the day of His coming and we shall know as we are now known. We shall be all that we are already, in Christ. Yes, we are NOW justified fully. My standing before God is complete. I am his child. I am adopted into his family. But we cannot confuse justification with sanctification as it appears that my opponent does. I say appears because he has never fully shared his views of justification and sanctification.
    In a previous post my fellow-debater said:


    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    What you just said is that a person can commit murder in spite of grace. That is impossible.
    As much as I hate to say it, and I do hate to say it, it is NOT impossible. A Christian is capable of any sin a non-Christian is capable of. The New Testament is FULL of passages outlining the struggle and battle to remain pure in an impure world.
    Passages like Galatians 6 become totally irrelevant and non-sense if we accept that Christians are perfect:


    1Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

    Brothers, fellow believers, can be caught in transgressions and yet, even as we help restore such a person, we have to do it in a way as to not lead ourselves into temptation and eventual sin.


    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    Therefore, we can see that one cannot truly accept Christ and continue to be a murderer, nor can they even continue to hate their brother, which God equates with murder.

    My opponent has asserted that I have "chosen the most vile sin" I can think of, as though that somehow bolsters his position. Paul wrote, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." Jesus will say "depart from me," to all those workers of iniquity, too. My opponent has asserted that they can continue to do those things and be saved as long as they "accept Christ," which is nothing more that a powerless cliché the way he uses the term.
    I beg to differ with my debate partner. He knows that I do NOT claim that you just “accept Christ” in some cliché manner and go about sinning. That is a knowing caricature of my words which I would think would be sinful because it misses the mark of honesty in order to try to prove himself correct. I agree fully with what Paul says in Romans 6:

    1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
    5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
    12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. 13Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.


    The people of Paul’s day claimed that he was a libertine. But he was just a man who understood true grace. Grace will lead us out of lifestyles that bring shame on the name of Christ. But it will not allow me to become Christ Himself. That is blasphemy. I cannot become the perfect Son of God. Paul would not add verses 12-14 to verses 1-11 if he were promoting instantaneous Christian perfection. Sin will NOT have DOMINION over me, but that does not mean that I am INCAPABLE of sinning.

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    Later in this debate I will explain what true sanctification is, and how one can be completely free from sin without being under the law. Jesus said, "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light" (Mt 11:30). I hope to show how easy and light the truth is, and how someone can follow him to victory without sin.
    The world awaits your answer!

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    My response to your answers to my questions:
    --------------------------------------------------



    Question 7: What is your standard of righteousness specifically?

    Answer: JESUS is my righteousness. I do NOT trust in my own righteousness...



    If Jesus is your standard of righteousness, then I am puzzled why you claim we can not meet his standard and be like him without sin. His standard was sinless perfection. It sounds like you are claiming that you can sin because Jesus gives you a license to.
    Jesus is the ONE I trust because he is the only one who ever achieved the true standard. I am puzzled to think that you think you can be divine. I guess you should join the Mormons. At least they don’t think they will become gods until after death. Jesus gives me no license to sin. He gives me help and hope when I stumble and fall.

    Romans 14:
    12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.


    I am accountable. There are rewards for those who go on to sanctification. They will not suffer the loss of rewards that those who sin or cause others to sin will suffer.

    QUESTION 21: Will you please exegete the following chapter in light of YOUR understanding of salvation, justification and sanctification?


    1 Cor. 3:
    1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

    5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
    9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
    16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

    18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”; 20 and again, “The LORD knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” 21 Therefore let no one boast in men. For all things are yours: 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come—all are yours. 23 And you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.


    I will be glad to exegete it in my next post. I just want to see what your understanding of rewards is.

    QUESTION 22: Can you direct me to a website where your views are clearly spelled out for all to see and compare?



    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    You used the example of drunkenness as sin. How do you know drunkenness is a sin, and how drunk is too much. Where is the law, rule or standard you are following to make that determination, if it is not your subjective opinion.
    Ephesians 5:18: And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit.

    [QUOTE=elohiym;1446429] My answers to your questions:
    --------------------------------


    Question 15 a, b: What religious group do you affiliate yourself with? If you are not actually a “member” of a church, are you in sympathy with a particular movement or group such as Church of God, Anderson Indiana; The Salvation Army; Church of the Nazarene or some independent holiness movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    [a] I affiliate with no "church" or denomination, but have a home church with my family. [b] I am not in sympathy with any movement anywhere, only the Holy Spirit.
    Question 16: Then why would Jesus ask Peter to forgive a person 490 times and God would refuse to forgive us more than once?

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    First, God is not a man (Num 23:19). Second, "to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little" (Luke 7:47). Therefore, whoever is forgiven much, loves much. It is not God that refuses to forgive, but the sinner who refuses to repent and rejects the forgiveness offered.
    This repudiates virtually everything else you have said. You said a person had to be sanctified BEFORE they can be converted. How can they accept forgiveness if they can't get perfect? It sounds like some kind of vicious circle where God APPEARS to be merciful and forgiving, but only if you get perfect first. If I am misundertanding you, will you please clear it up? It also sounds like... I said sounds like, God can onlty forgive you once. You accept it once, get forgiven once, but if you screw up, there is no second chance.

    QUESTION 23: Have I understood you correctly? I do not want to misrepresent your view. If I have not, please help me understand what I failed to see.



    Question 17a, b: What is your standard of sin? What does SIN mean to YOU?
    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    [a] Whatever is not faith is sin (Rom 14:23). [b] Sin means transgression of the law (1Jo 3:4).
    QUESTION 23: Which "law" do YOU mean? The Mosaic law?

    Question 18: When DID Peter convert?

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    I don't know when Peter was converted. I only know that he was not converted when Jesus told him that he wasn't, just prior to the cross (Luke 22:32).
    It still amazes me that you can believe he was unconverted when he preached at Pentecost. Wow! What can I say?

    I look forward to hearing your thoughts, especially your real view on how easy it is to be pervect apart from the law. I am honestly looking forward to seeing what you have to say. Blessings!
    Blessings of Peace,Chileice
    "Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." Romans 15.13

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    Over 5000 post club elohiym's Avatar
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    Again, we have to pause the debate because you will not answer a question. I asked:

    Question 8: What is your standard of sin, the mark you can miss that proves you sin?

    Let me be clear on this question so that you do not equivocate or answer with another cliché. You used the example of drunkenness as sin. How do you know drunkenness is a sin, and how drunk is too much. Where is the law, rule or standard you are following to make that determination, if it is not your subjective opinion.

    You gave Ephesians 5:18 as your answer. While that may be the scripture you are using as A LAW over yourself to determine that drunkenness is a sin, it doesn't help me to determine what your standard of sin is. How does that verse tell you if murder is a sin, or adultery, or any of the other things you believe are sins. State clearly what your standard is so that a child could know right from wrong if you gave her that standard.
    "It is easier to contend with evil at the first than at the last." - Leonardo da Vinci

  6. #21
    Old Timer Chileice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    Again, we have to pause the debate because you will not answer a question. I asked:

    Question 8: What is your standard of sin, the mark you can miss that proves you sin?

    Let me be clear on this question so that you do not equivocate or answer with another cliché. You used the example of drunkenness as sin. How do you know drunkenness is a sin, and how drunk is too much. Where is the law, rule or standard you are following to make that determination, if it is not your subjective opinion.

    You gave Ephesians 5:18 as your answer. While that may be the scripture you are using as A LAW over yourself to determine that drunkenness is a sin, it doesn't help me to determine what your standard of sin is. How does that verse tell you if murder is a sin, or adultery, or any of the other things you believe are sins. State clearly what your standard is so that a child could know right from wrong if you gave her that standard.
    First of all, let me say that your question was vague. You asked how I knew drunkeness was a sin. I thought you might realize that the Bible said it was. So I gave you a verse. I told you earlier that whatever is not from faith is sin, which by the way is half of the standard you gave me as well in your answer. I believe that sin is being less than what God desires as HIS best, as others have said, missing His mark. That mark is both objective; clear injunctions of scripture, as well as subjective; for example, if I know that I am to go and visit my neighbour but I chose to type on TOL instead. While that is not a clear injunction of Scripture, I know in MY heart what God wants me to do and I fail to do it. Therefore I fell short of the "glory" of God. I fell short of being all that he desired me to be for my benefit as well as for my neighbour's. NOW, you can not tell me that is vague.

    As I asked in my post, I am interested in YOUR standard, what "law" are you talking about?

    Now I look forward to your next post, especially your exegesis of 1 Corinthians 3.
    Blessings of Peace,Chileice
    "Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." Romans 15.13

  7. #22
    Over 5000 post club elohiym's Avatar
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    My opponent claims that “sanctification is the process of becoming more like Christ in our conduct and character.” This implies that our flesh becomes more obedient over time to whatever standard one perceives that he must meet, which is not possible (Rom 8:7). He has also stated at least twice in this debate that the first century church described in the New Testament believed in a progressive sanctification. However, not one verse in the entire Bible shows that sanctification is a progressive process, but all verses in the Old and New Testaments implicitly and explicitly show that sanctification is instantaneous. Therefore, his position is untenable.

    When God came to dwell with Israel in the wilderness, he told them, “the tabernacle shall be sanctified by my glory.” What that meant was that it was his presence that would sanctify the tabernacle. This is important to recognize because Paul tells us, “...your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you...” Therefore, we are sanctified by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Paul claimed that he was “sanctified by the Holy Ghost” (Rom 15:16), and claimed the readers of his epistles “are sanctified” (1Cor 1:2; 1Cor 6:11). It is not by “becoming more like Christ in our conduct and character” progressively that we are sanctified, but “we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Heb 10:10).

    The word sanctify means to make holy, to consecrate something or someone. It means that God sets us apart for a sacred purpose. The almighty creator of heaven and earth does not need to gradually make a person or an object holy over time; he can declare it it sanctified with a word. Jesus said, “now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you” (John 15:3 ). God can sanctify a person in the womb. It is written of Jeremiah, “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations” (Jer 1:5; See also Luke 1:15). Therefore, it is evident that sanctification is an act of God achieved by the indwelling of his Holy Spirit.

    My opponent, and other adherents to the doctrine of progressive sanctification, like the Seventh-day Adventist “prophet” Ellen White, have made a faulty assumption as to the definition of sanctification. They assumed that it meant the gradual transformation of the carnal mind and behavior modification. In reality, sanctification simply meant the you belong to God and are set apart by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Only those who are sanctified can be made perfect. It is written: For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified” (Heb 10:14). What that perfection means in terms of sinlessness, I hope to show you in my next post.

    Now to address some statements in your post that need addressing:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chileice
    It still amazes me that you can believe he was unconverted when he preached at Pentecost. Wow! What can I say?
    I never said that Peter was not converted when he preached at Pentecost, just that I don’t know when he was converted because the Bible does not say. You are assuming. I will not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chileice
    I am puzzled to think that you think you can be divine. I guess you should join the Mormons.
    I never stated that I think I can become divine, whatever that means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chileice
    Sin will NOT have DOMINION over me, but that does not mean that I am INCAPABLE of sinning.
    Jesus said, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin” (John 8:34). Therefore, if one commits sin, one serves sin, and it has dominion. Walk in the spirit and sin will not have dominion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chileice
    He knows that I do NOT claim that you just “accept Christ” in some cliché manner and go about sinning. That is a knowing caricature of my words which I would think would be sinful because it misses the mark of honesty in order to try to prove himself correct.
    No. You appear to me to be using the expression “accept Christ” as a cliché based on your assertion that a murderer can continue to murder and be saved. The verse you quote of Paul’s supports my position, not your position. The murderer has clearly not presented his members as instruments of righteousness, and I have already proven that a murderer does not have eternal life abiding in him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chileice
    Passages like Galatians 6 become totally irrelevant and non-sense if we accept that Christians are perfect: 1Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression...
    First, the word translated as transgression is not the same word used for sin throughout most the NT, and in the KJV it is translated as fault–-it requires a word study. Second, the Galatians were seeking perfection in their flesh (progressive sanctification) and were called foolish by Paul (Gal 3:3). Like any church, there were Christians at different stages of understanding. Third, I have not said that people in churches can’t sin, only that they shouldn’t and can stop completely, and must stop or perish. Therefore, your use of Galatians 6 is pointless. You cannot point to a group of Christians who are being carnal and say, “see, that means Christians will always be carnal.” That’s not reasonable.




    My response to your answers to my questions:
    -------------------------------------------------------



    Question 8: What is your standard of sin, the mark you can miss that proves you sin?

    Answer: I believe that sin is being less than what God desires as HIS best, as others have said, missing His mark. That mark is both objective; clear injunctions of scripture, as well as subjective...



    What you have described as a standard is a moving target, verses you pick and choose from the entire Bible based on your interpretation or that of your denomination. You claim drunkenness is a sin, but that is subjective based on how drunk one assumes is drunkenness.

    Since you brought them up, Seventh-day Adventists believe drinking any alcohol is a sin, and they, like you, pick and choose Bible verses and apply subjective reasoning to prove their position. They also believe that Saturday is the sabbath like some Baptists, but other Baptists claim Sunday. Therefore, by using the standard you have, you can never meet the mark, which is why you believe a born again person will commit sin until he dies. A child could never be obedient to your standard.

    You also gave the example of typing on TOL when you know God wants you to do something else as being sin, and I agree. It is willful sin because one who knows to do good but doesn’t do it is willfully sinning against God, and that is rejecting the Holy Spirit, the unpardonable sin (Heb 10:26-19). However, a person who is born of God does not willfully sin, but always does what pleases the Father.

    Finally, you said whatever is not faith is sin, which is true. Therefore it doesn’t matter what you do or what scripture you attempt to follow as a rule, because if it is not done in faith, it is still sin. A person cannot please God without faith. God’s specific commandments are the ONLY measure of sin, and they are not subjective at all; but those commandments can only be kept by faith. And in faith, they can NEVER be broken. Faith precludes willful sin.



    My answers to your questions:
    ------------------------------------


    QUESTION 19: Will you now, in this next post please explain your view of sanctification, since that what this discussion is all about?

    Yes. See above.

    QUESTION 20: If you have truly discovered the key to perfection without being under the law, why would you wait to reveal such Good News?

    I reveal it every chance I get.

    QUESTION 21: Will you please exegete the following chapter in light of YOUR understanding of salvation, justification and sanctification? [ I just want to see what your understanding of rewards is.]

    The reward is what Jesus calls our treasure in heaven. Those who we as fishers of men have established or built on the foundation of Christ will survive God’s fire and will remain. My reward is to see the people that I have led to Christ with me in heaven. There is nothing else God could give me.

    QUESTION 22: Can you direct me to a website where your views are clearly spelled out for all to see and compare?

    No. I don’t have one, nor do I know of one.

    QUESTION 23: Have I understood you correctly? I do not want to misrepresent your view. If I have not, please help me understand what I failed to see.

    No. You don’t understand my position. After I explain perfection you might.

    QUESTION 23: Which "law" do YOU mean? The Mosaic law?

    The same law Paul and John meant. The ten commandments.
    "It is easier to contend with evil at the first than at the last." - Leonardo da Vinci

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    QUESTION 21: Will you please exegete the following chapter in light of YOUR understanding of salvation, justification and sanctification?

    The reward is what Jesus calls our treasure in heaven. Those who we as fishers of men have established or built on the foundation of Christ will survive God’s fire and will remain. My reward is to see the people that I have led to Christ with me in heaven. There is nothing else God could give me.

    This certainly does NOT qualify as an exegesis of the chapter, in my mind or other readers minds. Look at the verse, quote the verses, see what they meant to the original audience, what they mean to us and how we can apply them in our life. After you are willing to actually do some work on this chapter, I will be glad to answer your questions.
    Blessings of Peace,Chileice
    "Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." Romans 15.13

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    Over 5000 post club elohiym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chileice View Post
    QUESTION 21: Will you please exegete the following chapter in light of YOUR understanding of salvation, justification and sanctification?

    The reward is what Jesus calls our treasure in heaven. Those who we as fishers of men have established or built on the foundation of Christ will survive God’s fire and will remain. My reward is to see the people that I have led to Christ with me in heaven. There is nothing else God could give me.

    This certainly does NOT qualify as an exegesis of the chapter, in my mind or other readers minds. Look at the verse, quote the verses, see what they meant to the original audience, what they mean to us and how we can apply them in our life. After you are willing to actually do some work on this chapter, I will be glad to answer your questions.
    You stated, "I just want to see what your understanding of rewards is." Therefore I have answered your question. I cannot state any clearer what my understanding of reward is. I am also not here to exegete entire chapters of the Bible, but debate the points. If you have a different understanding of reward in the context of that chapter feel free to exegete it or state what it is.

    Be advised that your posts are needlessly long, and you are doing an injustice to the reader, in my opinion. I doubt at this point people are even reading this debate. They are probably clicking through, seeing the long meandering posts, and leaving the thread. I wish we had agreed to a post length before we started.

    Also, I have not asked you anymore questions, so your statement that you will not answer my questions until I exegete an entire chapter of the Bible makes no sense.
    "It is easier to contend with evil at the first than at the last." - Leonardo da Vinci

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    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    You stated, "I just want to see what your understanding of rewards is." Therefore I have answered your question. I cannot state any clearer what my understanding of reward is. I am also not here to exegete entire chapters of the Bible, but debate the points. If you have a different understanding of reward in the context of that chapter feel free to exegete it or state what it is.

    Be advised that your posts are needlessly long, and you are doing an injustice to the reader, in my opinion. I doubt at this point people are even reading this debate. They are probably clicking through, seeing the long meandering posts, and leaving the thread. I wish we had agreed to a post length before we started.

    Also, I have not asked you anymore questions, so your statement that you will not answer my questions until I exegete an entire chapter of the Bible makes no sense.
    The problem my friend, is this: you have made up your own theology and so there is no homework to do. You quote no one, you do not take scripture in its entire context. So, yes, my posts are longer, and frankly they take a long time to write. Yours seem to be shot off the cuff. Also, you have centuries of church history to see where I am coming from and yet you have still failed to even give us your definition of perfection. You told us in the post before last that your next post would tell us how to be perfect, without the law. It did not. It is hard to "Debate" against someone who has failed to put all of his argument on the table. So I am forced to try to guess at what your real doctrine is and try to anticipate it and then you come back and tell me that I am too vague, if I don't answer your questions to YOUR satisfaction. You may be perfect to yourself, but your perfection has failed to give me a full understanding of what you believe or what you expect.

    The reason I want you to exegete 1 Corinthians 3 is to show how you view rewards in relation to salvation, justification and santification. The word "just" in my final aside was a POOR choice of words. I tend to use "just" often in my own conversation when I don't really mean "ONLY". It's a bad habit. I added the aside just so that you would include your view of rewards in your overall exegesis. However, my main focus on the question is to truly find out what you mean by salvation, justification and sanctification.

    Any reasonable view of the passage will also show that sanctification IS aprocess. And if you do not see a process in that passage, I would sure like to know how you reason it away.
    Blessings of Peace,Chileice
    "Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." Romans 15.13

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    Over 5000 post club elohiym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chileice View Post
    The problem my friend, is this: you have made up your own theology and so there is no homework to do. You quote no one, you do not take scripture in its entire context...
    Look, you are breaking the rules we agreed on. I don't need to quote anything but the Bible, and I leave it to the reader to make up their own mind. I also do not have to lay out my argument on your time-table, and I never said I was going to explain everything two posts ago. So quit it with these subtle accusations.

    We agreed to answer each other's questions. You have decided to make one of your questions a homework assignment for me, but that is not a question. If you want to exegete a chapter of Bible to make your point, go for it. I am only obligated to answer questions, and I have done so in this debate without equivocation.

    Make your arguments. Ask your questions. Keep your opinions about me to yourself. Refute my arguments, if you can. Let the reader decide.

    I await your next post.
    "It is easier to contend with evil at the first than at the last." - Leonardo da Vinci

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    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    Look, you are breaking the rules we agreed on. I don't need to quote anything but the Bible, and I leave it to the reader to make up their own mind. I also do not have to lay out my argument on your time-table, and I never said I was going to explain everything two posts ago. So quit it with these subtle accusations.
    HERE is our entire communication on the debate so that others can judge whether I have broken the rules. You accuse me of something and no one could even know whether it is true or not. Here are the full texts of our pre-debate conversation:

    Originally Posted by Chileice
    I propose a 1 on 1 debate where we discuss the issue of sanctification: is it instantaneous at salvation, or is it a process? Can a born-again Christian sin, and if so, why? And if not, why not?

    I propose that we try to stick to the Bible as the basis for our debate. That is not to say that you can bring in quotes from other authors, etc. You certainly can. You can also appeal to history to back up your claims.

    I also propose that neither of us discuss who is winning the debate nor make claims that we have won. We will leave that up to those who read our posts.

    I also commit to no name-calling and expect the same treatment from you. I believe each of us should put up a post laying out our general ideas related to sanctification without questions posed to the other person. Then, based on what has been said by the other in his initial post, we will begin to ask and answer each other's questions and broaden the discussion of the topic at hand.

    Does that sound reasonable?

    Again, if you answer more than 20 minutes from now, you probably won't hear anything until this evening. Thanks for the patience!



    Originally Posted by elohiym
    Quote:
    I accept your terms. Shall I start the thread and go first?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Chileice
    Sure, go ahead and start and I will try to answer this evening. Thanks!


    Originally Posted by elohiym
    Quote:
    Will do.

    Those ar the rules. I don't believe asking you to exegete a Bible passage is against the rules. As a matter of fact, that would be sticking to the Bible. I never said you HAD to quote anyone, but we agreed that we could if it were helpful. I will let the readers decide if your claim that I broke the rules is true or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    We agreed to answer each other's questions. You have decided to make one of your questions a homework assignment for me, but that is not a question. If you want to exegete a chapter of Bible to make your point, go for it. I am only obligated to answer questions, and I have done so in this debate without equivocation.

    Make your arguments. Ask your questions. Keep your opinions about me to yourself. Refute my arguments, if you can. Let the reader decide.

    I await your next post.
    If having to actually take more than two minutes with a scripture passage is homework for you, I am sorry you feel that way. I will try to simplify things for you. I think we may be near the end of this "debate" as you are unwilling to truly lay out your positions. But I will respond to your last post even if you are unwilling to answer my questions about 1 Corinthians 3.
    Blessings of Peace,Chileice
    "Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." Romans 15.13

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    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    He has also stated at least twice in this debate that the first century church described in the New Testament believed in a progressive sanctification. However, not one verse in the entire Bible shows that sanctification is a progressive process, but all verses in the Old and New Testaments implicitly and explicitly show that sanctification is instantaneous. Therefore, his position is untenable.
    This may seem a bit arduous, but I am going to list a few of the verses that support the long-standing view of the Christian church, held by almost everyone for all generations, that we as Christians are a work in progress. And as an addition, I will throw in some OT verses as well sice it seems that my opponent is unaware that they exist.
    Hosea 6:3; Psalm 119:5-7 (actually, all of Psalm 119 is about learning more of God's precepts so that the psalmist could increase in righteousness. It certainly teaches and implies progression). Another from the OT that I want to print out for the readers to see:

    14But I will hope continually
    and will praise you yet more and more.
    15My mouth will tell of your righteous acts,
    of your deeds of salvation all the day,
    for their number is past my knowledge.
    16With the mighty deeds of the Lord GOD I will come;
    I will remind them of your righteousness, yours alone.

    17O God, from my youth you have taught me,
    and I still proclaim your wondrous deeds.
    18So even to old age and gray hairs,
    O God, do not forsake me,
    until I proclaim your might to another generation,
    your power to all those to come.
    19Your righteousness, O God,
    reaches the high heavens.
    You who have done great things,
    O God, who is like you?
    20You who have made me see many troubles and calamities
    will revive me again;
    from the depths of the earth
    you will bring me up again.
    21You will increase my greatness
    and comfort me again.

    This is the psalm of a man who is now advanced in years and sees how from youth to old age, he has grown in the knowledge of the Lord. Why would he need to grow if he were perfect? Can perfect become more perfect? Mature can become more mature, but if one has reached perfection, this psalm would be senseless.

    Now let me move to the NT for the sake of time, not for lack of verses to show this idea IS Biblical and why it has been accepted for centuries as the doctrine of the churches of Jesus.

    Mt. 5.23,24; Mt. 6.7-15; (Why would Jesus teach us to pray as he did unless he only wanted us to pray once in our lives. But it says "When you pray" we should ask forgiveness, ask not to be led into temptation, etc. Perfect people wouldn't have to pray like that.) Mt. 7.1-5; (we are told not to judge because we might have a log in our own eyes while we are trying to get the speck out of the other guy's eye. Perfect people would not have logs in their eyes. 1 Thes. 5:12-25; Luke 9.23; 2 Thes. 1.3; 1 Tim. 1.12-17; Read the entire book of 2nd Timothy and tell me in all honesty, that our sanctification has led to instant perfection. It is so clear that it has not.


    Matthew 9:10And as Jesus reclined at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were reclining with Jesus and his disciples. 11And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?" 12But when he heard it, he said, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."


    It seems that only those who admit their own sinfulness stand able to be saved. Because if one thinks they are perfect and have no need, as did the pharisees, Jesus can't do anything for them. Yet, Matthew and his buddies knew their need.





    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    The almighty creator of heaven and earth does not need to gradually make a person or an object holy over time; he can declare it it sanctified with a word.
    He does not NEED to, but he chooses to. Why? I do not know, other than to make our lives full of purpose. In Mt. 9 Jesus sees the multitudes, has compassion on them, but does nothing other than tell his disciples to pray. Thare was NOTHING instantaneous about Jesus' solution:

    35And Jesus went throughout all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction. 36When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. 37Then he said to his disciples, "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; 38therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest."

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    Therefore, it is evident that sanctification is an act of God achieved by the indwelling of his Holy Spirit.
    I will agree that it is an act of the Holy Spirit but it is one that requires our cooperation. Read 1 Thes. 5:12-25:

    12We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, 13and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves. 14And we urge you, brothers, admonish the idle, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all. 15See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone. 16Rejoice always, 17pray without ceasing, 18give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. 19Do not quench the Spirit. 20Do not despise prophecies, 21but test everything; hold fast what is good. 22Abstain from every form of evil.

    23Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.

    25Brothers, pray for us.


    Verse 23 teaches that this sanctification is NOT yet complete. And he teaches in verse 19 that we can quench the Spirit, which is not the same as blaspheme against him. We can toss water on Him when he is trying to grow us and shape us and sanctify us. Paul does NOT want that to be the norm for his readers and neither do I. I want us to press on to grow in the graces Paul talks about here.

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    What that perfection means in terms of sinlessness, I hope to show you in my next post.
    PLEASE DO!

    [QUOTE=elohiym;1447032]Now to address some statements in your post that need addressing:
    I never said that Peter was not converted when he preached at Pentecost, just that I don’t know when he was converted because the Bible does not say. You are assuming. I will not.
    Let's check out what you said in post #11:
    Question 10: Is hypocrisy a sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    Yes.
    Question 11: When Peter sinned, did he lose his salvation, or was he never truly converted in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    Salvation cannot be lost, as I have already stated, and you agreed. Whoever is born of God (converted) does not and cannot sin (1Jo 3:6; 1Jo 3:9; 1Jo 5:18); therefore, Peter was not yet converted if he sinned.
    You certainly implied it because Peter preached at Pentecost in Chapter 2 of Acts and Paul was not even a believer yet. Still, Peter, who was clearly called a hypocrite in Galatians 2 while Paul was ther HAS to be after the Pentecost preaching. So he either got unconverted before the Galatians 2 experience or he preached the sermon unconverted.

    QUESTION 24: Which is it, he became unconverted after preaching at Pentecost or he was not yet converted when he preached at Pentecost?



    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    Jesus said, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin” (John 8:34). Therefore, if one commits sin, one serves sin, and it has dominion. Walk in the spirit and sin will not have dominion.
    That is a leap of false logic. Allowing a person to babysit my kid one day, does not mean I have given that person dominion over my child. If I just dump my kid with the babysitter and walk away, then I have given her dominion. I direct the readers back to my earlier posts regarding John 8 where I gave a CLEAR exegesis on this WHOLE passage (POST#7).


    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    First, the word translated as transgression is not the same word used for sin throughout most the NT, and in the KJV it is translated as fault–-it requires a word study.
    My fellow debater seems to have a bunch of time to post long posts on other threads trying to counter-jab whatever appears to be against his self-developed theology. Yet he has no time to give us the word study nor to exegete one chapter of the Bible. I find that somewhat curious. This debate forum would be an excellent place for him to present in a well-thought-out and easily expressed way the basic virtues of this new doctrine he is teaching. I would be glad to see his word study, if it is important for undersatnding his stance.

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    Second, the Galatians were seeking perfection in their flesh (progressive sanctification) and were called foolish by Paul (Gal 3:3). Like any church, there were Christians at different stages of understanding. Third, I have not said that people in churches can’t sin, only that they shouldn’t and can stop completely, and must stop or perish. Therefore, your use of Galatians 6 is pointless. You cannot point to a group of Christians who are being carnal and say, “see, that means Christians will always be carnal.” That’s not reasonable.
    I will allow our readers to read Galkatians and see that the Galatians were being influenced by judaizers who were trying to take them away from the freedom offered in Christ. Their problem had NOTHING to do with "progressive" or "instantaneous" sanctification. They were no longer trusting the grace of Christ and were instead being lured into trusting in Jewish rituals. I will let the readers of Galatians judge as to whether my argument from Galatians 6 stands. It is VERY reasonable.


    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    My response to your answers to my questions:
    -------------------------------------------------------


    [box]Question 8: What is your standard of sin, the mark you can miss that proves you sin?

    You claim drunkenness is a sin, but that is subjective based on how drunk one assumes is drunkenness.
    QUESTION 25: Do you believe drunkeness is NOT a sin? If it is NOT a sin, why not? If it is, what is your standard?

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    Finally, you said whatever is not faith is sin, which is true. Therefore it doesn’t matter what you do or what scripture you attempt to follow as a rule, because if it is not done in faith, it is still sin. A person cannot please God without faith. God’s specific commandments are the ONLY measure of sin, and they are not subjective at all; but those commandments can only be kept by faith. And in faith, they can NEVER be broken. Faith precludes willful sin.
    I guess this is the crux of getting to your belief
    QUESTION 26: HOW does faith preclude willful sin?


    [QUOTE=elohiym;1447032]
    My answers to your questions:
    ------------------------------------
    QUESTION 20: If you have truly discovered the key to perfection without being under the law, why would you wait to reveal such Good News?

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    I reveal it every chance I get.
    You haven't revealed it in this debate, which would have been a very logical place to reveal it.

    I am still sorry to see that you find it too difficult to answer question 21. It would be helpful, but if you refuse, I will not beg.





    QUESTION 22: Can you direct me to a website where your views are clearly spelled out for all to see and compare?

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    No. I don’t have one, nor do I know of one.
    It would make me a bit uncomfortable to think that I was the only one who held my doctrines and that no one else had ever written about them before. That is how cults begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    No. You don’t understand my position. After I explain perfection you might.
    Again, I wish you would as do the other readers of this thread and of the other thread as well.

    QUESTION 23: Which "law" do YOU mean? The Mosaic law?

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    The same law Paul and John meant. The ten commandments.
    QUESTION 27a,b: Are you saying that the Ten Commandments are the only law? If I keep those 10, I am perfect?

    I hope the readers can see how difficult this is for me. I have to invent the questions, try to guess what my opponent believes and try to maintain some kind of interesting debate while he just says: "I am only obligated to answer questions, and I have done so in this debate without equivocation." I feel like I am playing 20 questions. But, I still hope that something on this thread has been helpful to you, the readers and hopefully to elohiym as well. If nothing else, I have enjoyed going back over this wonderful doctrine of the Christian faith. Blessings,
    Chileice
    Blessings of Peace,Chileice
    "Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." Romans 15.13

  14. #29
    Over 5000 post club elohiym's Avatar
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    My opponent continues to complain and make subtle accusations about me with every post. Combined with his long meandering arguments which have failed to address many of my points, and his superfluous and mostly pointless questions, his annoying debating style has become more than I care to tolerate. Therefore, I will finish my argument with this post, allow my opponent to respond, and then in my final post I will summarize my points and conclude. The reader can decide who made the convincing argument.

    Being set apart by God through the instant sanctification of the Holy Spirit, as I proved in my last post, we are able to be made perfect. But how? It is written: "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb 10:14). God has perfected us by abolishing the old covenant by the cross (Eph 2:15), taking away the Mosaic ordinances that condemned the infirmities of our flesh (Col 2:14), and by writing his law on our hearts (Heb 10:16), which is the new covenant. (See also Jer 31:33; Rom 2:14-15)

    What does it mean when God writes his law on our hearts? It means that through his Holy Spirit we fulfill the law always. "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" (Gal 5:14 See also Rom 13:9; and James 2:8). Therefore, our standard of righteousness is love. "And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him" (1Jo 4:16). One who is born of God, converted, always meets that standard. "He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him" (1Jo 2:10).

    My opponent wants you to believe that you can stumble in Christ, that you are not perfect yet, but must conform your behavior to a subjective standard based on picking and choosing Bible verses to follow like laws. The truth is, if you love your neighbor as yourself, you fulfill all the law and you are perfect. The carnal mind is not capable of love (Rom 8:7), so progressive sanctification is a myth. It is no more real than progressive love. Love is love always, and can be nothing less than love. One may express love in a variety of ways, and there is no rule that states how love must look. It is unique and personal for each of us, and only God knows the true intent of the heart.

    You can grab verses out of the Bible and create a list of "do and do not" to attempt to live by if you want to fail, or you can simply be perfect as the good Samaritan was perfect and have eternal life. The good Samaritan wasn't a Jew or Christian, and he didn't profess a belief in Jesus, but he had a perfect heart and a perfect spirit. Your perfection, should you decide to accept it, is nothing more than perfection of heart and spirit that you either have or you don't. You cannot strive to attain this love by works, and having this love will not make your flesh perfect. You will still make mistakes, but those are not sins. Only an unconverted heart, filled with hate and idolatry can sin. God supposedly gave you a new heart. Did you get it?


    My answers to your questions:
    --------------------------------

    QUESTION 24: Which is it, he became unconverted after preaching at Pentecost or he was not yet converted when he preached at Pentecost?

    I don't know. The Bible doesn't tell us when Peter was converted. As I have already shown, Jesus stated that Peter was not converted prior to the cross. See my previous posts. Many unconverted people preach and perform miracles.

    QUESTION 25: Do you believe drunkeness is NOT a sin? If it is NOT a sin, why not? If it is, what is your standard?

    Drunkenness is a form of idolatry. It is a sin. It does not have to involve alcohol, but can involve false doctrines like progressive sanctification. Re 18:3 "For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication..." Jesus drank wine, and unless he was immune to the effects of alcohol, he got drunk to some extent, but did not sin. My standard of sin is the law, as was Jesus'.

    QUESTION 26: HOW does faith preclude willful sin?

    Because what ever is not faith is sin, and conversely whatever is faith is not sin. As Paul said, "walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh" (Gal 5:16). The spirit is God, and God is love. So walk in love, and you will not sin. You can only do that by faith, not a subjective standard you assume by picking and choosing Bible verses to follow.

    QUESTION 27a,b: Are you saying that the Ten Commandments are the only law? If I keep those 10, I am perfect?

    [a] No. [b] No. If you fulfill the entire law, you are perfect and keep the entire law. "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" (Gal 5:14). It is so simple that a child can understand it.

    Now, you may respond, after which I will make my final post. Then, as a courtesy, I will allow you to make the last post and have the last word in the debate.
    "It is easier to contend with evil at the first than at the last." - Leonardo da Vinci

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    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    (H)is annoying debating style has become more than I care to tolerate. Therefore, I will finish my argument with this post, allow my opponent to respond, and then in my final post I will summarize my points and conclude. The reader can decide who made the convincing argument.
    While I disagree with your assessment of the debate and the substance, I agree that it is time to wrap this up. I have also had trouble with your "debating" style.

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    Being set apart by God through the instant sanctification of the Holy Spirit, as I ¿proved? in my last post, we are able to be made perfect.
    I must have missed SOMETHING. I certainly saw nothing like a PROOF of your argument, other than to say you said it and so that's the way it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    But how? It is written: "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb 10:14). God has perfected us by abolishing the old covenant by the cross (Eph 2:15), taking away the Mosaic ordinances that condemned the infirmities of our flesh (Col 2:14), and by writing his law on our hearts (Heb 10:16), which is the new covenant. (See also Jer 31:33; Rom 2:14-15)
    Again the entire context would add to the readers' understanding Hebrews 10:

    8When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law), 9then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He abolishes the first in order to establish the second. 10And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    11And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.


    This passage is a comparison of the old sacrificial system and the perfect sacrifice of Christ. And NOTE that he says. "who are BEING (ongoing process) sanctified." His sacrifice is complete and our sanctification will be perfect. But we are still in that process.

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    What does it mean when God writes his law on our hearts? It means that through his Holy Spirit we fulfill the law always. "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" (Gal 5:14 See also Rom 13:9; and James 2:8). Therefore, our standard of righteousness is love. "And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him" (1Jo 4:16). One who is born of God, converted, always meets that standard. "He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him" (1Jo 2:10).
    While I agree that the standard is love, I think many of the readers of this debate might question whether or not all of the posts were written in love. I don't believe you or I are perfect. I am trying to grow in that love and you need to as well. Again saying we all meet the standard is a leap of logic that does not follow from what you said. Just because the standard is love, that does NOT mean we always live up to it. I am sure your children do not always live up to your standards or desires, yet I imagine that they love you.


    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    You can grab verses out of the Bible and create a list of "do and do not" to attempt to live by if you want to fail, or you can simply be perfect as the good Samaritan was perfect and have eternal life. The good Samaritan wasn't a Jew or Christian, and he didn't profess a belief in Jesus, but he had a perfect heart and a perfect spirit. Your perfection, should you decide to accept it, is nothing more than perfection of heart and spirit that you either have or you don't. You cannot strive to attain this love by works, and having this love will not make your flesh perfect. You will still make mistakes, but those are not sins. Only an unconverted heart, filled with hate and idolatry can sin. God supposedly gave you a new heart. Did you get it?
    This is rather disturbing. According to what I read, one does not have to be a Christian to be saved, just perfect. That would make Christ's sacrifice worthless and this statement false teaching. It appears that my opponent depends more on his own perfection than on trusting Christ. I put my faith and my trust in Him. I trust Christ alone for my salvation and make no claim that my own perfection has anything to do with being saved, justified, sanctified or glorified. I guess the readers will have to decide with whom they stand.


    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    My answers to your questions:
    --------------------------------

    QUESTION 25: Do you believe drunkeness is NOT a sin? If it is NOT a sin, why not? If it is, what is your standard?

    Drunkenness is a form of idolatry. It is a sin. It does not have to involve alcohol, but can involve false doctrines like progressive sanctification. Re 18:3 "For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication..." Jesus drank wine, and unless he was immune to the effects of alcohol, he got drunk to some extent, but did not sin. My standard of sin is the law, as was Jesus'.
    QUESTION 28a,b:So what is that limit? How do you know what is sin in regard to drunkeness?


    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    QUESTION 26: HOW does faith preclude willful sin?

    Because what ever is not faith is sin, and conversely whatever is faith is not sin. As Paul said, "walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh" (Gal 5:16). The spirit is God, and God is love. So walk in love, and you will not sin. You can only do that by faith, not a subjective standard you assume by picking and choosing Bible verses to follow.
    At least I let the Bible guide me to know what love is. Read 1 Cor. 13 and see if you TRULY love like that all the time. I have my doubts. I agree that we should walk in love, but when we sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. 1 John 2:1.

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    QUESTION 27a,b: Are you saying that the Ten Commandments are the only law? If I keep those 10, I am perfect?

    [a] No. [b] No. If you fulfill the entire law, you are perfect and keep the entire law. "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" (Gal 5:14). It is so simple that a child can understand it.

    Now, you may respond, after which I will make my final post. Then, as a courtesy, I will allow you to make the last post and have the last word in the debate.
    I agree that we should love our neighbour as ourselves. But what you say is far more subjective than using the Bible as my source for what is sin. If YOU alone decide if you are loving, you could do just about anything and say you weren't sinning. I have seen how you have responded to Glenda and the Called-out and to others and by almost anyone's standard other than your own, you did not treat them with love. So if love is the standard, you have not kept it. But, you, of course will say that you have because you have set up your own subjective standard as to what constitues love. So, in many ways, sanctification has no ultimate goal, it is not a goal for you, it is an accomplished fact. Therefore, you are able to justify your actions and attitudes by convincing yourself that you are perfect when, at least by any credible measure of other people, you are not living up to the standard of love.

    I at least admit that I have failed to do so, not because I don't want to but because i still have a sinful nature. I am much more mature than I was before and I have a lot of maturing to go. I hope some day you will see the benefits of allowing God to continue to work on your character.

    I appreciate that you took the time to do this debate. And in spite of the fact that we remain poles apart, I appreciate that you at least tried to get your view out there and it allowed the readers to see two very different views and to make their decisions. Blessings, Chileice.
    Blessings of Peace,Chileice
    "Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." Romans 15.13

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