The Late Great Urantia Revelation

transcending terms........

transcending terms........

Lon said:

Rather you couldn't. I'm merely redressing 'your' rants.

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My comment was addressing your statement that that was your last post - (I assumed your 'last post' as in leaving this discussion thread for some time, or for good) - it wasn't your last post, since your responded again to Caino. My previous posts to you were my appropriate responses. If you want to call them 'rants', that shows your mentality which appears somewhat 'middle school'.

In my angry youth, I'd have taken the bait. I've still the where-with-all but am somewhat tempered. Don't push it.

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Apparently still some childhood/adolescent issues, which may affect your 'responses' and posts here, but we all have a conditioned psychology more or less for growing up in the world. Whose 'baiting'? Glad to hear your 'tempered' somewhat, we are all works in progress. I'll continue to 'properly' respond to your criticisms where needed....since I'm upholding my end of maintaining a 'creative dialogue' here....its what 'freelight' does. How others 'contribute' is up to them, since I still have a 'response-ability' to address things accordingly....and enjoy doing it. Consider it an art.

Good day :surf:

No, rather was your graceless "don't let the door" farewell. It provides a contrast of what your religion is doing for you. You are yet a graceless fleshly man. I used to be just that way and would have pushed the issue.

Many of us have been raised to believe that the gospel means this: (found @ bible.org):

"When Christians refer to the “Gospel” they are referring to the “good news” that Jesus Christ died to pay the penalty for our sin so that we might become the children of God through faith alone in Christ alone. In short, “the Gospel” is the sum total of the saving truth as God has communicated it to lost humanity as it is revealed in the person of His Son and in the Holy Scriptures, the Bible."

But what did Jesus of the UB say about the gospel that he came to proclaim? Here are just a few passages where he explains it in Part IV of The Urantia Book:

"I admonish you ever to remember that your mission among men is to proclaim the gospel of the kingdom—the reality of the fatherhood of God and the truth of the sonship of man. Proclaim the whole truth of the good news, not just a part of the saving gospel. Your message is not changed by my resurrection experience. Sonship with God, by faith, is still the saving truth of the gospel of the kingdom. You are to go forth preaching the love of God and the service of man. That which the world needs most to know is: Men are the sons of God, and through faith they can actually realize, and daily experience, this ennobling truth. My bestowal should help all men to know that they are the children of God, but such knowledge will not suffice if they fail personally to faith-grasp the saving truth that they are the living spirit sons of the eternal Father. The gospel of the kingdom is concerned with the love of the Father and the service of his children on earth. ~ (193:0.4)



"Salvation is the gift of God, and righteousness is the natural fruit of the spirit-born life of sonship in the kingdom. You are not to be saved because you live a righteous life; rather is it that you live a righteous life because you have already been saved, have recognized sonship as the gift of God and service in the kingdom as the supreme delight of life on earth. When men believe this gospel, which is a revelation of the goodness of God, they will be led to voluntary repentance of all known sin. Realization of sonship is incompatible with the desire to sin. Kingdom believers hunger for righteousness and thirst for divine perfection." ~ (150:5.5)

About the sacredness of Scripture, Jesus said:

"A false fear of sacredness has prevented religion from being safeguarded by common sense. The fear of the authority of the sacred writings of the past effectively prevents the honest souls of today from accepting the new light of the gospel, the light which these very God-knowing men of another generation so intensely longed to see. ~ (159:4.9)

Caino,

Your first definition from bible.org is correct. Nobody cares what the ub teaches.

You really need to relax.......

You really need to relax.......

Lon said:

No, rather was your graceless "don't let the door" farewell.

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Too bad you failed to see the humor there.

It provides a contrast of what your religion is doing for you.

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freelight wrote:

"don't let the door hit your hindquarters on the way out"

If you're going to judge my 'religion' by your sensitive over-reaction to my comment above, it only shows you would resort to ad hominems for being overly sensitive and perhaps not very happy about my responses to your criticisms in this thread. I'll continue to hold my own,...and the humorous quote still holds,...perhaps you need to take yourself less seriously.

journey said:

Caino,

Your first definition from bible.org is correct.

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According to a traditional-orthodox Christian point of view.

Nobody cares what the ub teaches.

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Those who have discovered what the UB actually teaches and have come to value such, DO. You don't have a monopoly on 'God'.

We are already all children of God, loved by God......whereby the good news is 'sonship with God',...by the revelation that God is our Father, and living in that reality by way of the new birth of the Spirit. A 'blood-atonement' is not necessary in this realization of the Fatherhood of God and Brotherhood of Man, since living this 'sonship' is all that is essential, and it is by the Spirit, of course.

See: Reconsidering the concept of blood-atonement

Freelight,

You're wasting your time trying to share your urantia UFO cult garbage with me. You will answer to God one day for pushing your false gospel and the garbage that goes with it.

journey said:

Freelight,

You're wasting your time trying to share your urantia UFO cult garbage with me. You will answer to God one day for pushing your false gospel and the garbage that goes with it.

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The papers expand the idea of the kingdom of heaven, and the concept of 'divine sonship' with the Father, while placing an emphasis on our motivation to do the will of God, and to make God's will our will.

141:2.1 The night before they left Pella, Jesus gave the apostles some further instruction with regard to the new kingdom. Said the Master: “You have been taught to look for the coming of the kingdom of God, and now I come announcing that this long-looked-for kingdom is near at hand, even that it is already here and in our midst. In every kingdom there must be a king seated upon his throne and decreeing the laws of the realm. And so have you developed a concept of the kingdom of heaven as a glorified rule of the Jewish people over all the peoples of the earth with Messiah sitting on David's throne and from this place of miraculous power promulgating the laws of all the world. But, my children, you see not with the eye of faith, and you hear not with the understanding of the spirit. I declare that the kingdom of heaven is the realization and acknowledgment of God's rule within the hearts of men. True, there is a King in this kingdom, and that King is my Father and your Father. We are indeed his loyal subjects, but far transcending that fact is the transforming truth that we are his sons. In my life this truth is to become manifest to all. Our Father also sits upon a throne, but not one made with hands. The throne of the Infinite is the eternal dwelling place of the Father in the heaven of heavens; he fills all things and proclaims his laws to universes upon universes. And the Father also rules within the hearts of his children on earth by the spirit which he has sent to live within the souls of mortal men.

141:2.2 “When you are the subjects of this kingdom, you indeed are made to hear the law of the Universe Ruler; but when, because of the gospel of the kingdom which I have come to declare, you faith-discover yourselves as sons, you henceforth look not upon yourselves as law-subject creatures of an all-powerful king but as privileged sons of a loving and divine Father. Verily, verily, I say to you, when the Father's will is your law, you are hardly in the kingdom. But when the Father's will becomes truly your will, then are you in very truth in the kingdom because the kingdom has thereby become an established experience in you. When God's will is your law, you are noble slave subjects; but when you believe in this new gospel of divine sonship, my Father's will becomes your will, and you are elevated to the high position of the free children of God, liberated sons of the kingdom.”

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- Paper 141


I don't feel threatened by your 'god', since I've come to trust in a 'God' that is perfectly just and merciful, and he hasn't limited the revelation of himself to any one book, religious tradition or cult,...since He is the Universal Father of all.

freelight said:

Too bad you failed to see the humor there.

freelight wrote:

"don't let the door hit your hindquarters on the way out"

If you're going to judge my 'religion' by your sensitive over-reaction to my comment above, it only shows you would resort to ad hominems for being overly sensitive and perhaps not very happy about my responses to your criticisms in this thread. I'll continue to hold my own,...and the humorous quote still holds,...perhaps you need to take yourself less seriously.

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Yeah, it is something I'm going to hold against you. Where I come from, it isn't funny. So much so, there are retorts and these are the last things said after an altercation.

"Too bad you don't see the humor." Hilarious in your neck of the woods is it? lain:

The Urantia revelation comes at a turbulent, transitional time in history. Science has destroyed many elements of superstition, the age of reason and enlightenment has liberated mankind from ecclesiastical tyranny and the substitution of the Christian religious institution for the original gospel of the kingdom of heaven has run it's coarse. Christ fostered the Christian church as far as it could be as it is the best exponent of his life's work on earth but the time has come to be frank with mankind at the down of this new era.

This explains why the OT has multiple edits and reworked histories that liberated people of common sense can see.


SACRED AND PROFANE HISTORY



97:8.1 "The custom of looking upon the record of the experiences of the Hebrews as sacred history and upon the transactions of the rest of the world as profane history is responsible for much of the confusion existing in the human mind as to the interpretation of history. And this difficulty arises because there is no secular history of the Jews. After the priests of the Babylonians exile had prepared their new record of God's supposedly miraculous dealings with the Hebrews, the sacred history of Israel as portrayed in the Old Testament, they carefully and completely destroyed the existing records of Hebrew affairs—such books as "The Doings of the Kings of Israel" and "The Doings of the Kings of Judah," together with several other more or less accurate records of Hebrew history.

97:8.2 In order to understand how the devastating pressure and the inescapable coercion of secular history so terrorized the captive and alien-ruled Jews that they attempted the complete rewriting and recasting of their history, we should briefly survey the record of their perplexing national experience. It must be remembered that the Jews failed to evolve an adequate nontheologic philosophy of life. They struggled with their original and Egyptian concept of divine rewards for righteousness coupled with dire punishments for sin. The drama of Job was something of a protest against this erroneous philosophy. The frank pessimism of Ecclesiastes was a worldly wise reaction to these overoptimistic beliefs in Providence.

97:8.3 But five hundred years of the overlordship of alien rulers was too much for even the patient and long-suffering Jews. The prophets and priests began to cry: "How long, O Lord, how long?" As the honest Jew searched the Scriptures, his confusion became worse confounded. An olden seer promised that God would protect and deliver his "chosen people." Amos had threatened that God would abandon Israel unless they re-established their standards of national righteousness. The scribe of Deuteronomy had portrayed the Great Choice—as between the good and the evil, the blessing and the curse. Isaiah the first had preached a beneficent king-deliverer. Jeremiah had proclaimed an era of inner righteousness—the covenant written on the tablets of the heart. The second Isaiah talked about salvation by sacrifice and redemption. Ezekiel proclaimed deliverance through the service of devotion, and Ezra promised prosperity by adherence to the law. But in spite of all this they lingered on in bondage, and deliverance was deferred. Then Daniel presented the drama of the impending "crisis"—the smiting of the great image and the immediate establishment of the everlasting reign of righteousness, the Messianic kingdom.

97:8.4 And all of this false hope led to such a degree of racial disappointment and frustration that the leaders of the Jews were so confused they failed to recognize and accept the mission and ministry of a divine Son of Paradise when he presently came to them in the likeness of mortal flesh—incarnated as the Son of Man.

97:8.5 All modern religions have seriously blundered in the attempt to put a miraculous interpretation on certain epochs of human history. While it is true that God has many times thrust a Father's hand of providential intervention into the stream of human affairs, it is a mistake to regard theologic dogmas and religious superstition as a supernatural sedimentation appearing by miraculous action in this stream of human history. The fact that the "Most Highs rule in the kingdoms of men" does not convert secular history into so-called sacred history.

97:8.6 New Testament authors and later Christian writers further complicated the distortion of Hebrew history by their well-meant attempts to transcendentalize the Jewish prophets. Thus has Hebrew history been disastrously exploited by both Jewish and Christian writers. Secular Hebrew history has been thoroughly dogmatized. It has been converted into a fiction of sacred history and has become inextricably bound up with the moral concepts and religious teachings of the so-called Christian nations.

97:8.7 A brief recital of the high points in Hebrew history will illustrate how the facts of the record were so altered in Babylon by the Jewish priests as to turn the everyday secular history of their people into a fictitious and sacred history."

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV 1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Galatians 1:8-10 KJV But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. 10. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

journey said:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV 1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Galatians 1:8-10 KJV But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. 10. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

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The above is only Paul's version of the 'gospel', which he describes as 'my gospel', since he knew it was different than the original apostles teaching, being a syncretism of various schools and his own personal revelations, visions, etc. Merely quoting the same passages above does nothing to discredit or demean any religious truths, principles or values described in the UB, since they speak for themselves.

101:0.1 RELIGION, AS A human experience, ranges from the primitive fear slavery of the evolving savage up to the sublime and magnificent faith liberty of those civilized mortals who are superbly conscious of sonship with the eternal God.

101:0.2 Religion is the ancestor of the advanced ethics and morals of progressive social evolution. But religion, as such, is not merely a moral movement, albeit the outward and social manifestations of religion are mightily influenced by the ethical and moral momentum of human society. Always is religion the inspiration of man's evolving nature, but it is not the secret of that evolution.

101:0.3 Religion, the conviction-faith of the personality, can always triumph over the superficially contradictory logic of despair born in the unbelieving material mind. There really is a true and genuine inner voice, that "true light which lights every man who comes into the world." And this spirit leading is distinct from the ethical prompting of human conscience. The feeling of religious assurance is more than an emotional feeling. The assurance of religion transcends the reason of the mind, even the logic of philosophy. Religion is faith, trust, and assurance.

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Freelight,

I don't see the ub as a viable source since it's a work of fiction. In other words, I don't care what the stance of the ub is. The urantia UFO cult may respect the ub, but I don't.

....."Religion is primarily a pursuit of values"


103:1.3 While your religion is a matter of personal experience, it is most important that you should be exposed to the knowledge of a vast number of other religious experiences (the diverse interpretations of other and diverse mortals) to the end that you may prevent your religious life from becoming egocentric—circumscribed, selfish, and unsocial.

103:1.4 Rationalism is wrong when it assumes that religion is at first a primitive belief in something which is then followed by the pursuit of values. Religion is primarily a pursuit of values, and then there formulates a system of interpretative beliefs. It is much easier for men to agree on religious values—goals—than on beliefs—interpretations. And this explains how religion can agree on values and goals while exhibiting the confusing phenomenon of maintaining a belief in hundreds of conflicting beliefs—creeds. This also explains why a given person can maintain his religious experience in the face of giving up or changing many of his religious beliefs. Religion persists in spite of revolutionary changes in religious beliefs. Theology does not produce religion; it is religion that produces theologic philosophy.

103:1.5 That religionists have believed so much that was false does not invalidate religion because religion is founded on the recognition of values and is validated by the faith of personal religious experience. Religion, then, is based on experience and religious thought; theology, the philosophy of religion, is an honest attempt to interpret that experience. Such interpretative beliefs may be right or wrong, or a mixture of truth and error.

103:1.6 The realization of the recognition of spiritual values is an experience which is superideational. There is no word in any human language which can be employed to designate this "sense," "feeling," "intuition," or "experience" which we have elected to call God-consciousness. The spirit of God that dwells in man is not personal—the Adjuster is prepersonal—but this Monitor presents a value, exudes a flavor of divinity, which is personal in the highest and infinite sense. If God were not at least personal, he could not be conscious, and if not conscious, then would he be infrahuman." UB 1955

Caino said:

....."Religion is primarily a pursuit of values"


103:1.3 While your religion is a matter of personal experience, it is most important that you should be exposed to the knowledge of a vast number of other religious experiences (the diverse interpretations of other and diverse mortals) to the end that you may prevent your religious life from becoming egocentric—circumscribed, selfish, and unsocial.

103:1.4 Rationalism is wrong when it assumes that religion is at first a primitive belief in something which is then followed by the pursuit of values. Religion is primarily a pursuit of values, and then there formulates a system of interpretative beliefs. It is much easier for men to agree on religious values—goals—than on beliefs—interpretations. And this explains how religion can agree on values and goals while exhibiting the confusing phenomenon of maintaining a belief in hundreds of conflicting beliefs—creeds. This also explains why a given person can maintain his religious experience in the face of giving up or changing many of his religious beliefs. Religion persists in spite of revolutionary changes in religious beliefs. Theology does not produce religion; it is religion that produces theologic philosophy.

103:1.5 That religionists have believed so much that was false does not invalidate religion because religion is founded on the recognition of values and is validated by the faith of personal religious experience. Religion, then, is based on experience and religious thought; theology, the philosophy of religion, is an honest attempt to interpret that experience. Such interpretative beliefs may be right or wrong, or a mixture of truth and error.

103:1.6 The realization of the recognition of spiritual values is an experience which is superideational. There is no word in any human language which can be employed to designate this "sense," "feeling," "intuition," or "experience" which we have elected to call God-consciousness. The spirit of God that dwells in man is not personal—the Adjuster is prepersonal—but this Monitor presents a value, exudes a flavor of divinity, which is personal in the highest and infinite sense. If God were not at least personal, he could not be conscious, and if not conscious, then would he be infrahuman." UB 1955

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You should be exposed to the Bible

True Religion: Happy Resurrection Day

True Religion: Happy Resurrection Day

"Religion" is the effort of man to reach God. So yes, the UB is the same as every man's feeble effort to reach God.

Christianity, completely different, is "God's Way" of reaching man in his lostness:

John 15:13, "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."
John 10:11, "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep."
Romans 5:10, "For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
1 Corinthians 15:3, "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures."
2 Corinthians 5:21, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
1Pe 2:22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.
1Pe 2:23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly.
1Pe 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
1Pe 2:25 For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

2 Corinthians 5:20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

Lon said:

"Religion" is the effort of man to reach God. So yes, the UB is the same as every man's feeble effort to reach God.

Christianity, completely different, is "God's Way" of reaching man in his lostness:

John 15:13, "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."
John 10:11, "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep."
Romans 5:10, "For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
1 Corinthians 15:3, "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures."
2 Corinthians 5:21, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
1Pe 2:22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.
1Pe 2:23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly.
1Pe 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
1Pe 2:25 For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

2 Corinthians 5:20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

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Christianity is largely a religion about Jesus and according to Paul of Tarsus. The Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven is the religion of Jesus which he taught, preached and lived among the Jews. Jesus had hoped the Jews would have accepted him and his gospel, it was their calling. Abraham was glad to see his day. But tragically the Jews were Lon-like. They were proud, tradition enslaved and revered the writings of their holy men (wherein they were the apple of Gods eye of coarse). Today the Jews remain marooned by their own arrogance and the false expectations of a Jewish Messiah.

Lon said:

"Religion" is the effort of man to reach God. So yes, the UB is the same as every man's feeble effort to reach God.

Christianity, completely different, is "God's Way" of reaching man in his lostness:

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I guess you'd have to read all the UB's discourses on 'religion' to understand it. In any case, I still think your bringing your own presuppositional assumptions into the equation here, since 'religion' includes and encompasses the whole of man's relationship to God and man, to the whole universe,...the ethics, morals, principles, philosophy and theology that that all includes, and more. Man certainly has within his own God-given potential and ability to respond to and worship 'God', since its built into his very being, and his very faculties, not to mention there is an actual fragment of 'God' as 'pure spirit' that indwells the mind of man (as the 'thought-adjuster').

TulipBee said:

You should be exposed to the Bible

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Show me anywhere in that discourse you responded to.... that is antithetical or antagonistic to anything in the 'Bible'. We're talking about Religion being 'primarily a pursuit of values' - this is a fair and honest evaluation of what 'religion' includes, the recognition and striving towards spiritual values. Do you find something wrong with that?

freelight said:

I guess you'd have to read all the UB's discourses on 'religion' to understand it. In any case, I still think your bringing your own presuppositional assumptions into the equation here, since 'religion' includes and encompasses the whole of man's relationship to God and man, to the whole universe,...the ethics, morals, principles, philosophy and theology that that all includes, and more. Man certainly has within his own God-given potential and ability to respond to and worship 'God', since its built into his very being, and his very faculties, not to mention there is an actual fragment of 'God' as 'pure spirit' that indwells the mind of man (as the 'thought-adjuster').

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In essence the claim is that Jesus wasted 3 years preaching his gospel to the Jews when the Father had planed on his rejection and murder all along, a new gospel, revealed to Paul while on his 3 year vacation in Arabia, the pathway by which the Father could finally forgive.