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Thread: The evolution game is up!!!

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    Maximeee's Husband death2impiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUTG View Post
    No thanks. I have no interest in teaching remedial science.
    AKA - I have not the ability to present any evidence.

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    Give him a chance D2I. He can't even respond scientifically to the question of how knee joints evolved.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
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    Quote Originally Posted by death2impiety
    I have yet to read one rebuttal to IC that doesn't begin with a straw-man. Maybe you could present one here.
    Sure. The parts have other functions. Or there were supporting enzymes no longer present.

    Example:
    Our irreducibly complex cascade:
    Enzyme C (which performs function X) relies on enzyme B which relies on enzyme A. Without enzymes B and A, enzyme C cannot perform the function. Without enzyme C, enzyme B and A are useless.

    The evolution of the cascade:
    Enzyme D servers a completely unrelated function, but also happens to support enzyme C. Enzyme B evolves to augment enzyme C. Enzyme A evolves to augment enzyme B. Enzyme C then mutates and enzyme D no longer supports enzyme C. Now enzyme C is completely reliant upon enzyme B, which is completely reliant upon enzyme A.
    “There's nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view that I hold dear.” - Daniel Dennett

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    Maximeee's Husband death2impiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Sure. The parts have other functions. Or there were supporting enzymes no longer present.

    Example:
    Enzyme A relies on enzyme B which relies on enzyme C.

    Enzyme D servers a completely unrelated function, but also happens to support enzyme C. Enzyme B evolves to augment enzyme C. Enzyme A evolves to augment enzyme B. Enzyme C then mutates and enzyme D no longer supports enzyme C. Now enzyme C is completely reliant upon enzyme B, which is completely reliant upon enzyme A.
    So all these enzymes create organs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Sure. The parts have other functions. Or there were supporting enzymes no longer present.

    Example:
    Our irreducibly complex cascade:
    Enzyme C (which performs function X) relies on enzyme B which relies on enzyme A. Without enzymes B and A, enzyme C cannot perform the function. Without enzyme C, enzyme B and A are useless.

    The evolution of the cascade:
    Enzyme D servers a completely unrelated function, but also happens to support enzyme C. Enzyme B evolves to augment enzyme C. Enzyme A evolves to augment enzyme B. Enzyme C then mutates and enzyme D no longer supports enzyme C. Now enzyme C is completely reliant upon enzyme B, which is completely reliant upon enzyme A.

    I'd be interested in reading about an example of this situation in reality for context's sake. Not the maybe's and if's how a system may have evolved, just a current biological system that operates how you described. Would you mind providing one?

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    Over 500 post club SUTG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stipe View Post
    Give him a chance D2I. He can't even respond scientifically to the question of how knee joints evolved.
    Knee joints eveolved the same way everything else evolved. (see Darwin)

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    Quote Originally Posted by death2impiety
    So all these enzymes create organs?
    No. They are made up imaginary enzymes in an irreducibly complex cascade. An irreducibly complex system is an irreducibly complex system, whether we're talking about organs or enzymes. The argument lies not in the components, but in the inter-dependent relationships between the functions of the components.
    “There's nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view that I hold dear.” - Daniel Dennett

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    Quote Originally Posted by death2impiety
    I'd be interested in reading about an example of this situation in reality for context's sake. Not the maybe's and if's how a system may have evolved, just a current biological system that operates how you described. Would you mind providing one?
    Sure, after lunch.
    “There's nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view that I hold dear.” - Daniel Dennett

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    Quote Originally Posted by death2impiety View Post
    I'd be interested in reading about an example of this situation in reality for context's sake. Not the maybe's and if's how a system may have evolved, just a current biological system that operates how you described. Would you mind providing one?
    I suggest he do the bacterial flagellum. This should be easy because evolutionists already have done this one (supposely).
    Random changes are destructive to any carefully crafted piece of work, such as a computer program, a novel or the genome of a lifeform.
    Matt 23:24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damian View Post
    Who is espousing that there are random changes?
    Anybody who believes that God had no part in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Glenn R. Johnson and Jim C. Spain 2003. “Evolution of catabolic pathways for synthetic compounds: bacterial pathways for degradation of 2,4-dinitrotoluene and nitrobenzene.” Applied Microbiology and Biotechnology, 62(2-3), pp. 110-123

    Glenn R. Johnson, Rakesh K. Jain, and Jim C. Spain 2003. “Origins of the 2,4-Dinitrotoluene Pathway.” Journal of Bacteriology, 184(15), pp. 4219-4232
    I might wonder whether anyone has ever claimed that these are cases of irreducibly complex systems?

    But this does suggest what the evolutionary community has done to "refute" Behe: first claim that some system is "irreducibly complex", and then show that it isn't.

    That tactic reminds me of the logical technique the Greeks used when they assumed that God exists, defined what his attributes must be, and then proceeded to prove from these starting assumptions that God doesn't exist (this seems to prove only that they screwed up somewhere along the line).

    What the critics haven't done is to take a system which Behe claims is irreducibly complex (the bacterial flagellum) and refute that one.
    Random changes are destructive to any carefully crafted piece of work, such as a computer program, a novel or the genome of a lifeform.
    Matt 23:24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

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    Over 500 post club PlastikBuddha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob b View Post
    I might wonder whether anyone has ever claimed that these are cases of irreducibly complex systems?

    But this does suggest what the evolutionary community has done to "refute" Behe: first claim that some system is "irreducibly complex", and then show that it isn't.

    That tactic reminds me of the logical technique the Greeks used when they assumed that God exists, defined what his attributes must be, and then proceeded to prove from these starting assumptions that God doesn't exist (this seems to prove only that they screwed up somewhere along the line).

    What the critics haven't done is to take a system which Behe claims is irreducibly complex (the bacterial flagellum) and refute that one.
    http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/flagellum.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlastikBuddha View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Evoken View Post
    Where? In the Matzke paper written by a non-biologist(?) and which has not been published in any scientific journal nor has it passed the peer-review process?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SUTG View Post
    Knee joints eveolved the same way everything else evolved. (see Darwin)
    Darwin didn't explain how it evolved, but just said that it did evolve by using some fantasy stories. Now we know a lot more and I have a hard time believing that knee joints can evolve.
    The voiceless, the wasted...You soaked your hearts in gasoline. Now light it up and burn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by macguy View Post
    Now we know a lot more and I have a hard time believing that knee joints can evolve.
    Argument from incredulity (a.k.a. you don't have enough FAITH that it evolved).


    Evo

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