ECT How is Paul's message different?

Nick M · Feb 5, 2016

tetelestai said:
Paul made it crystal clear that there were others "in Christ" before he was.

1 Timothy 1

16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

Paul was his enemy and a blasphemer. And yet he received life and was sealed by the Spirit. The circumcision was sealed. See Acts 5, but we have been over this so many times it doesn't really matter.

tetelestai · Feb 5, 2016

Nick M said:
Paul was his enemy and a blasphemer. And yet he received life and was sealed by the Spirit.

Ok, but that doesn't mean he was the first person in Christ.

The circumcision was sealed.

You better check with your MAD buddies on that one.

I don't think they have the circumcision being sealed with the Holy Spirit.

turbosixx · Feb 5, 2016

Clete said:
I don't think I understand the question. Are you suggesting that you don't believe that Paul's message (i.e. salvation by grace) is not based on Calvary? That certainly is not a distinctive of Acts 9 Dispensationalism and simple word search yields lost of verses where Paul talks about our having been crucified with Christ. Where else was Christ crucified besides at Calvary?

Romans 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
That single passage alone is the gospel of grace in a single sentence!

How does that not answer your question? (I think it might have taken me 10 seconds to find that verse, by the way. I'm not bragging, I'm just saying it wasn't hidden or difficult to find.)

There are many other passages like it...

1 Corinthians 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

1 Corinthians 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

2 Corinthians 13:4 For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?

Galatians 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”)

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Philippians 3:10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

I hope that answers your question.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I replied earlier in post #981 but I've been thinking about this and thought this might help you see from my viewpoint.

I've been told recently by a MADist that when Paul said "we are the circumcision" that he is not saying "we are the circumcision". Then I'm told our works don't count in grace because of Christ's "finished work". To my knowledge Paul never speaks of Christ's "work" other than us doing it, but he sure talks a lot about our works.

I guess I didn't get the MAD decoder ring.

Right Divider · Feb 5, 2016

turbosixx said:
I replied earlier in post #981 but I've been thinking about this and thought this might help you see from my viewpoint.

I've been told recently by a MADist that when Paul said "we are the circumcision" that he is not saying "we are the circumcision". Then I'm told our works don't count in grace because of Christ's "finished work". To my knowledge Paul never speaks of Christ's "work" other than us doing it, but he sure talks a lot about our works.

I guess I didn't get the MAD decoder ring.

The secret decoder ring is called understanding the use of language.

Php 3:2-3 KJV Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. (3) For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

You have to read carefully and not just gloss over language DETAILS. Paul often uses these types of CONTRASTS when he is trying to explain himself.

Paul is CONTRASTING the WE to THEM.

They are the DOGS and the EVIL WORKERS; we that worship God IN THE SPIRIT are not.

turbosixx · Feb 5, 2016

Right Divider said:
The secret decoder ring is called understanding the use of language.
Php 3:2-3 KJV Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. (3) For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

You have to read carefully and not just gloss over language DETAILS. Paul often uses these types of CONTRASTS when he is trying to explain himself.

Paul is CONTRASTING the WE to THEM.

They are the DOGS and the EVIL WORKERS; we that worship God IN THE SPIRIT are not.

11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

Right Divider · Feb 5, 2016

turbosixx said:
11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

Once again, Paul is using COMPARISONS and ANALOGIES.

You really have a hard time with this, don't you?

Col 2:11 KJV In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Do you understand that this "circumcision of Christ" is what we get when we trust that Christ died for our sins?

turbosixx · Feb 5, 2016

Right Divider said:
Once again, Paul is using COMPARISONS and ANALOGIES.

You really have a hard time with this, don't you.

Col 2:11 KJV In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Do you understand that this "circumcision of Christ" is what we get when we trust that Christ died for our sins?

What I understand it that Paul says, "you were also circumcised" and "we are the circumcision" but I'm told that is not what he is saying. I will stick with Paul.

Right Divider · Feb 5, 2016

turbosixx said:
What I understand it that Paul says, "you were also circumcised" and "we are the circumcision" but I'm told that is not what he is saying. I will stick with Paul.

Yes. I too stick with Paul.

You seem to think that this "circumcision without hands" makes you Israel or some such thing.

tetelestai · Feb 5, 2016

Right Divider said:
Yes. I too stick with Paul.

You seem to think that this "circumcision without hands" makes you Israel or some such thing.

(Gal 3:7) Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.

After reading Col 2:11, and the above verse, do you consider yourself a circumcised child of Abraham?

turbosixx · Feb 5, 2016

Right Divider said:
Yes. I too stick with Paul.

You seem to think that this "circumcision without hands" makes you Israel or some such thing.

you were also circumcised
we are the true circumcision
you are Abraham's descendants

turbosixx · Feb 5, 2016

tetelestai said:
(Gal 3:7) Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.

After reading Col 2:11, and the above verse, do you consider yourself a circumcised child of Abraham?

That is what Paul is telling us. I understand that in the OT physical Israel were the people of God and in the NT Christians are the people of God.

Clete · Feb 5, 2016

Jamie Gigliotti said:
There is no scriptural basis for Paul being the first in Christ.

Sure there is!

I Timothy 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

David was not washed by Calvary and reconciled to God and filled in the manner possible after Calvary.

Click to expand...

David was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Psalms 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

He chose Paul because:
"Because Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display His perfect patience..." 1 Timothy 1:15-16
This brought glory to God. The power to transform through His mercy, love, and presence.

Click to expand...

Do you have a crap translation or did you remove the part the defeated your argument on purpose?

Denying God's use of visions denies scripture. How ridiculous to flipantly dismiss countless reports. Paul met Jesus in a supernatural way, what would ever prevent Jesus from doing this again.

Click to expand...

It isn't flippant. There is no evidence for it and Billions of tons of evidence that they are 100% all lies. Not the least of which is my dead Father-in-law who died of the cancer Benny Hinn's god "cured" him of!

Theology is understanding God. It wasn't a new dispensation. Paul did not dismiss the royal law of love, from the law, and not wronging neighbors, only ceremonial practices that did not mean much, that Peter got confused about, for a time. Ironiclly Paul practiced ceremonial things at the Temple when he got arrested.

Click to expand...

This whole thread is plumb full of evidence to the contrary. I suggest you read it. It will not be a waste of your time.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Click to expand...

tetelestai · Feb 5, 2016

Clete said:
Do you have a crap translation or did you remove the part the defeated your argument on purpose?

We can use any translation you want. There isn't a translation out there that has Paul being the first person in the Body of Christ.

You do understand "the body of Christ" is just a metaphor, and that there are many other metaphors?

However, let's use the metaphor you obsess with:

(Acts 9:4 KJV) And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Using your "body" metaphor, it's crystal clear that when Jesus asked Saul why he was persecuting "me", it could only mean the people Saul was persecuting were part of His "body".

However, you will disagree with that because your belief system has to have Paul #1 in the "body" metaphor.

Acts 9:4 proves you wrong. Unless you can show us that Saul literally persecuted Christ Jesus Himself.

IOW, your MAD is a mess.

Clete · Feb 5, 2016

turbosixx said:
I replied earlier in post #981 but I've been thinking about this and thought this might help you see from my viewpoint.

I've been told recently by a MADist that when Paul said "we are the circumcision" that he is not saying "we are the circumcision". Then I'm told our works don't count in grace because of Christ's "finished work". To my knowledge Paul never speaks of Christ's "work" other than us doing it, but he sure talks a lot about our works.

I guess I didn't get the MAD decoder ring.

This post makes no sense to me!

Our works don't count? Who told you that? Who could believe such a thing? That is NOT Mid-Acts Dispensationalism. Whoever told you that was either very confused or you misunderstood him.

Paul explicitly states that we are saved unto good works! The difference is being rewarded for works we choose to do vs. being saved because we both trust AND obey. If your works are the product of a "trust and obey" attitude then your works are of your flesh and will profit you little or nothing. If, on the other hand, you, secure in your salvation, do not produce fruit out of fear of losing that salvation but rather out of a loving gratitude toward the source of your salvation, then you will receive rewards such that the human mind cannot conceive.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Right Divider · Feb 5, 2016

tetelestai said:
(Gal 3:7) Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.

After reading Col 2:11, and the above verse, do you consider yourself a circumcised child of Abraham?

The dummy speaks again.....

Yes, we that have faith are the children of Abraham in his uncircumcision.

Rom 4:9-13 KJV Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. (10) How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. (11) And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: (12) And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. (13) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

The "circumcision without hands" and the "baptism into His death", are all about our relationship to God when we have faith in what Christ did for us on the cross.

You just have an impossible time understanding context and figures of speech.

Right Divider · Feb 5, 2016

turbosixx said:
you were also circumcised
we are the true circumcision
you are Abraham's descendants

Indeed, nothing about "becoming Israel".

Israel fell and will be restored again some day (Romans 11).

Nick M · Feb 5, 2016

turbosixx said:
To my knowledge Paul never speaks of Christ's "work" other than us doing it, but he sure talks a lot about our works.

Come again?

Romans 4

4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Romans 5

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Ephesians 2

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Danoh · Feb 5, 2016

Again; what is going on here in the various back and forth exchanges between people is that each sees himself right and the other wrong.

I hold to a Mid-Acts Perspective that I believe is sound.

It differs in some respects to the Mid-Acts that others on here hold.

We both believe our own beliefs in those areas we differ in understanding on is the sound one.

Likewise with others in their respective understandings.

I still enjoy reading of and or hearing out a view that differs from the one I hold as sound.

This has actually greatly increased my own understanding of the view I hold.

At times its even helped improve if, if not even alter it somewhat for the better.

Just as its made enemies of some, including even, some of my supposed own given the actual intolerance and bigotry towards anyone not holding their view that that is actually about within all schools of thought.

I sincerely doubt such are able to learn as rapidly and or as profoundly as is possible when one simply explores the views of another whether or not one agrees with them.

Turbosixx, you are a rare bird, bro. You have your view, and yet you actually bother to explore the views of others even in their hypocrisy (of some).

Thank God I do not belong to any one club. The issue in such is an odd loyalty to one another at the expense of what is right.

Legalism! The curse of mankind.

Seems we never learn no matter how much we claim we have...

patrick jane · Feb 5, 2016

turbosixx said:
I replied earlier in post #981 but I've been thinking about this and thought this might help you see from my viewpoint.

I've been told recently by a MADist that when Paul said "we are the circumcision" that he is not saying "we are the circumcision". Then I'm told our works don't count in grace because of Christ's "finished work". To my knowledge Paul never speaks of Christ's "work" other than us doing it, but he sure talks a lot about our works.

I guess I didn't get the MAD decoder ring.

Are you saying Jesus Christ never did works ?

Danoh · Feb 5, 2016

turbosixx said:
I replied earlier in post #981 but I've been thinking about this and thought this might help you see from my viewpoint.

I've been told recently by a MADist that when Paul said "we are the circumcision" that he is not saying "we are the circumcision". Then I'm told our works don't count in grace because of Christ's "finished work". To my knowledge Paul never speaks of Christ's "work" other than us doing it, but he sure talks a lot about our works.

I guess I didn't get the MAD decoder ring.

But, but Turbo, I, I gave you a manual to the decoder ring - the "The Mystery" by - by Pastor Joel Finck...

Speaking of knowing one is right, check this out :rotfl:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFYsJYPye94&app=desktop

ECT How is Paul's message different?

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