Arminians' Dilemma

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Samie

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Arminians teach that Christ died for every one, but only those who, by faith, accept the gift of salvation can be in Christ. In other words, people are born NOT in Christ.

But Jesus told His disciples that apart from Him, they cannot bear fruit; apart from Him, they can do NOTHING (John 15:4, 5). And if anyone is able to bear fruit and do something while NOT in Christ, then he is better off than Christ's disciples.

It appears that the gospel Arminians teach goes against the statement of Christ, because for the Arminians, while NOT in Christ and hence apart from Christ, people can do SOMETHING – they can believe and accept the gift of salvation – to be in Christ.

But believing is exercising faith which is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22), and only those in Christ are able to bear fruit.

Will any Arminian please explain?

Your silence could mean indirect admission that indeed you are preaching a gospel that goes against what Jesus Himself said. And Scriptures warn against preaching another gospel (Gal 1:6-9).
 
jamie

jamie

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Salvation is initiated by The Father who leads people to Christ by his Spirit. The Father seeks those who will worship him in Spirit and in truth.
 
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Samie

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jamie said:
Salvation is initiated by The Father who leads people to Christ by his Spirit. The Father seeks those who will worship him in Spirit and in truth.
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Thanks for the response.

But if you are among the Arminians, your response does not seem to absolve their dilemma.
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

New member
Samie said:
Arminians teach that Christ died for every one, but only those who, by faith, accept the gift of salvation can be in Christ. In other words, people are born NOT in Christ.

But Jesus told His disciples that apart from Him, they cannot bear fruit; apart from Him, they can do NOTHING (John 15:4, 5). And if anyone is able to bear fruit and do something while NOT in Christ, then he is better off than Christ's disciples.

It appears that the gospel Arminians teach goes against the statement of Christ, because for the Arminians, while NOT in Christ and hence apart from Christ, people can do SOMETHING – they can believe and accept the gift of salvation – to be in Christ.

But believing is exercising faith which is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22), and only those in Christ are able to bear fruit.

Will any Arminian please explain?

Your silence could mean indirect admission that indeed you are preaching a gospel that goes against what Jesus Himself said. And Scriptures warn against preaching another gospel (Gal 1:6-9).
Click to expand...

The only dilemma is in your own mind because you took a fraction of a verse out of context and made it into a dogma.
I already explained that in another thread.

Try a real Arminian dilemma.
Even though I am not an Arminian, I will try to answer it.
 
S

Samie

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genuineoriginal said:
The only dilemma is in your own mind because you took a fraction of a verse out of context and made it into a dogma.
I already explained that in another thread.

Try a real Arminian dilemma.
Even though I am not an Arminian, I will try to answer it.
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The dilemma is given in the OP.

Ostrich defense does not eliminate the existence of the dilemma, brother. What you said as the explanation you gave in another thread is simply a DENIAL of the existence of the dilemma. No explanation was ever given.

Please address the OP SQUARELY, brother.
 
jamie

jamie

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Samie said:
Arminians teach that Christ died for every one, but only those who, by faith, accept the gift of salvation can be in Christ. In other words, people are born NOT in Christ.
Click to expand...

Was Paul an Arminian? Paul said, "The carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be."
(Romans 8:7)
 
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Samie

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jamie said:
Was Paul an Arminian? . . .
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I don't think, he was. Paul said all died when Christ died (2 Cor 5:14, 15) and were made alive TOGETHER with Him when He resurrected (Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13). The Arminians do not teach this, neither do the Calvinists.
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

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Samie said:
The dilemma is given in the OP.

Ostrich defense does not eliminate the existence of the dilemma, brother. What you said as the explanation you gave in another thread is simply a DENIAL of the existence of the dilemma. No explanation was ever given.

Please address the OP SQUARELY, brother.
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I have addressed your delusion squarely.

Your delusion is this:
Jesus told the disciples that they could bring forth no fruit unless they continued in Him.
You twist this to claim that nobody can do anything unless they are in Jesus.

Your problem is that you have no clue what it means to be in Jesus and you think Jesus was speaking to those that are not in Him.
 
S

Samie

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genuineoriginal said:
I have addressed your delusion squarely.

Your delusion is this:
Jesus told the disciples that they could bring forth no fruit unless they continued in Him.
You twist this to claim that nobody can do anything unless they are in Jesus.

Your problem is that you have no clue what it means to be in Jesus and you think Jesus was speaking to those that are not in Him.
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Is continuing in Him continuing being in Christ? If Yes, then you have just discovered your own dilemma.

If the disciples CONTINUE to be in Christ, then they bear fruit. If they don't, then they can't bear fruit. Why? Because they CEASE being in Him. You TWIST that to mean as applying ONLY to the disciples and NOT to any other human being. And that's your dilemma.

The disciples can't bear fruit unless they CONTINUE to be in Him, but you CLAIM you can bear fruit even if you are NOT in Christ. You are against my position that people can't bear fruit UNLESS they are in Christ, because it exposes the error of your theology.

You bury your head in the sand and pretend there is NO dilemma. Here, take a look at your dilemma. I bolded them in red so you can better see:

John 15:5-6 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

New member
Samie said:
You are against my position that people can't bear fruit UNLESS they are in Christ
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That is not the position I am against.

I am against the false doctrine that claims that nobody can accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior unless they are already in Christ.

The Bible states that the wicked who turn from their wickedness and do that which is lawful and right will live. (Ezekiel 18:27)
You are claiming that the wicked must be in Christ first before they can turn from their wickedness and live, based on your misunderstanding of a single verse in scripture.
 
S

Samie

New member
genuineoriginal said:
That is not the position I am against.

I am against the false doctrine that claims that nobody can accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior unless they are already in Christ.
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By that you are indirectly saying that Jesus preached a false doctrine. Jesus said that while NOT in Him man can do NOTHING. You insist man can do SOMETHING. If yours is the correct doctrine then Jesus' doctrine is false.

genuineoriginal said:
The Bible states that the wicked who turn from their wickedness and do that which is lawful and right will live. (Ezekiel 18:27)
You are claiming that the wicked must be in Christ first before they can turn from their wickedness and live, based on your misunderstanding of a single verse in scripture.
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You are the one NOT understanding it. You refuse to because it is against your genuinely original false theology.

The wicked are asked to turn from their wickedness, to repent of their evil deeds, and do that which is good instead. Why are they asked to do good IF they are not able to? Do you ask your baby girl to do the laundry? Attached to Him Who is their Strength for doing good, the wicked have His Power to do what is good. But instead of using His Power to do good, they use that Power to do evil. And if they persist in their wickedness then they are blotted out from the book of life when they die because only overcomers will not be blotted out from it.

You teach that even if NOT in Christ people can do good. That is unscriptural. That is a false doctrine. That is against the words of Christ: "Apart from Me, you can do NOTHING"!!! Why can't you believe in these words of our Savior? What prevents you from simply believing our Savior's plain statement?
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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Samie said:
You teach that even if NOT in Christ people can do good. That is unscriptural. That is a false doctrine. That is against the words of Christ: "Apart from Me, you can do NOTHING"!!! Why can't you believe in these words of our Savior? What prevents you from simply believing our Savior's plain statement?
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What KIND of good are you speaking of? Worldly/fleshly good or Spiritual good?
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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ALL of humanity is capable of choosing to do good or evil. Hitler, Manson, Mao, etc., chose to do excessive evil. Some choose to do lesser evil/bad. Some choose to serve their fellow man and do good. However, they're doing the kind of good that is of no Spiritual value. (Fleshly/worldly good.) The "True Believer" does Spiritual good that brings glory to God. The kind of Spiritual good that's created by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Unsaved man does worldly good and True Believers do Spiritual good. When the True Believer stands before Christ (The Bema Seat) they will receive rewards for those things done while in the flesh. Whereas, the unbeliever will stand before God the Father and be judged by their works and suffer eternal damnation in the Lake of Fire. Their goods works/deeds will be of no benefit to them.
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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Calvinism is, "Another gospel." Its "belief system" changes the character and intent of the God of the Bible. I don't know that god.
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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Hall of Fame
jamie said:
Was Paul an Arminian? Paul said, "The carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be."
(Romans 8:7)
Click to expand...

Until one hears the True Gospel" places their faith in Christ as Savior, is sealed, indwelt and baptized (not by water) into the Body of Christ, and receives the righteousness of Christ, that verse of Scripture stands true.
 
Jamie Gigliotti

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
Samie said:
Arminians teach that Christ died for every one, but only those who, by faith, accept the gift of salvation can be in Christ. In other words, people are born NOT in Christ.

But Jesus told His disciples that apart from Him, they cannot bear fruit; apart from Him, they can do NOTHING (John 15:4, 5). And if anyone is able to bear fruit and do something while NOT in Christ, then he is better off than Christ's disciples.

It appears that the gospel Arminians teach goes against the statement of Christ, because for the Arminians, while NOT in Christ and hence apart from Christ, people can do SOMETHING – they can believe and accept the gift of salvation – to be in Christ.

But believing is exercising faith which is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22), and only those in Christ are able to bear fruit.

Will any Arminian please explain?

Your silence could mean indirect admission that indeed you are preaching a gospel that goes against what Jesus Himself said. And Scriptures warn against preaching another gospel (Gal 1:6-9).
Click to expand...

Paul equates being in Christ in Romans 8:1-4 as walking according to the Spirit. Before a sinner repents and turns to God, God's Spirit convicts of sin. All is dependent upon Him because we need the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Apart from Him we can do nothing. But none the less Man can refuse the Spirit and with his free will given by God choose to follow the Spirit's leading or not.

It is by Grace and His soveriegnty as He allows us to have free will.
 
themuzicman

themuzicman

Well-known member
Samie said:
Arminians teach that Christ died for every one, but only those who, by faith, accept the gift of salvation can be in Christ. In other words, people are born NOT in Christ.

But Jesus told His disciples that apart from Him, they cannot bear fruit; apart from Him, they can do NOTHING (John 15:4, 5). And if anyone is able to bear fruit and do something while NOT in Christ, then he is better off than Christ's disciples.
Click to expand...

John 15-17:9 is about the 12 disciples specifically. Further, the context of John 15 is going out to do ministry, and not initial faith.

It appears that the gospel Arminians teach goes against the statement of Christ, because for the Arminians, while NOT in Christ and hence apart from Christ, people can do SOMETHING – they can believe and accept the gift of salvation – to be in Christ.
Click to expand...

That's only if you accept Calvinist eisegesis.

But believing is exercising faith which is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22), and only those in Christ are able to bear fruit.
Click to expand...

Again, poor exegesis. Galatians 5 is speaking of "faithfulness", and that only in those who are already saved. This isn't speaking of initial salvation.

Will any Arminian please explain?

Your silence could mean indirect admission that indeed you are preaching a gospel that goes against what Jesus Himself said. And Scriptures warn against preaching another gospel (Gal 1:6-9).
Click to expand...

It's called "proper exegesis." You can't go to the bible looking for Calvinism. You need to go to the bible looking to correct Calvinism.

So, by your own standard, Calvinism is violating Galatians 1
 
themuzicman

themuzicman

Well-known member
jamie said:
Was Paul an Arminian? Paul said, "The carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be."
(Romans 8:7)
Click to expand...

Technically, Paul was neither Arminian nor Calvinist. Both systematic theologies are man-made, and thus subject to error. Some more than others.
 
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