Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

the yoke of religion

the yoke of religion

Dear 1Way,

Instead of go on and on with your religiously crafted phariseeical babble - why not address Freaks scriptural evidence that he provides in post #160 & 170 ???? Its sad to see your posts which are a frantic attempt to prove Bobs and/or your views as somehow biblically superior when there are other scriptures that show that miracles contributed to the faith and testimony of Gods power in the midst of the people. Now why dont you give your pious heretic hunting mind a rest....and answer Freaks posts and his scriptural references. Bobs statement may have some truth....particularly in OT times...but as a whole...it cannot be said to be absolutely true. Much of this is pretty petty anyway...as those of us who do believe in Gods power and charismas of the Spirit are satisfied to have such faith...while non-believers can go ahead and babble all they want about how/why God no longer does miracles. Suit yourself - but address the scriptures Freak listed to be FAIR - can u handle that?


Tired of the vanity being spouted from those who limit their faith in God and are bound by their own dispensational prisons, entangeled in their own web of theology and narrow interpretations and claims of what is Gods Word. Your tone is rotten and I think the whitewash on your tomb needs a new paint job. This is sad.


*disclaimer - I usually do not and dont believe I have ever responded like this to anyone on TOL before.....but after reading enough of your postings....I felt such was due. It really might be time to expand your mind a little and stop holding onto your self-righteous ways and manners - also the air of superiority and pride is a sin and not the Spirit of our Lord Christ. God is Love...and those who are born of Him express their lives by LOVE!

Wake up.


paul

Re: the yoke of religion

Re: the yoke of religion

Originally posted by freelight

Dear 1Way,

Instead of go on and on with your religiously crafted phariseeical babble - why not address Freaks scriptural evidence that he provides in post #160 & 170 ???? Its sad to see your posts which are a frantic attempt to prove Bobs and/or your views as somehow biblically superior when there are other scriptures that show that miracles contributed to the faith and testimony of Gods power in the midst of the people. Now why dont you give your pious heretic hunting mind a rest....and answer Freaks posts and his scriptural references. Bobs statement may have some truth....particularly in OT times...but as a whole...it cannot be said to be absolutely true. Much of this is pretty petty anyway...as those of us who do believe in Gods power and charismas of the Spirit are satisfied to have such faith...while non-believers can go ahead and babble all they want about how/why God no longer does miracles. Suit yourself - but address the scriptures Freak listed to be FAIR - can u handle that?


Tired of the vanity being spouted from those who limit their faith in God and are bound by their own dispensational prisons, entangeled in their own web of theology and narrow interpretations and claims of what is Gods Word. Your tone is rotten and I think the whitewash on your tomb needs a new paint job. This is sad.


*disclaimer - I usually do not and dont believe I have ever responded like this to anyone on TOL before.....but after reading enough of your postings....I felt such was due. It really might be time to expand your mind a little and stop holding onto your self-righteous ways and manners - also the air of superiority and pride is a sin and not the Spirit of our Lord Christ. God is Love...and those who are born of Him express their lives by LOVE!

Wake up.


paul

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Excellent. :thumb:

Will someone make Freak understand the difference between disagreeing with a truth claim, and refuting the claims support argumentation?

This is not Freak's occasion for a monologue, he was supposed to counter Bob's teaching, which is more than just a claim, Bob's teachings all have, "support argumentation" and a contextually developed (consistent) line of reasoning. If you never 1) represent Bob's teaching accurately, then you can NEVER accurately oppose it, you can disagree with his conclusion, but so can anyone, even a three year old can do that, yet no refutation or resolution (typically) comes simply from a disagreement, usually resolution happens because of refutation such that the idea is established as wrong, BOB's idea is established as wrong, not the messed up subjective errant thinking about one of his claims.

It is getting obvious that Freak doesn't even know what Bob teaches, I should never have had to offer my understanding for Freak to respond to, he should have accurately represented Bob's views in the first place so that he could then dismantle them for all to see. Instead, it's 180 posts later and Freak still has not presented one single counterpoint to ANY of Bob's "teachings", instead, he has only disagreed with one of his claims. If he has disagreed with more claims, I don't know for certain, I don't read his obfuscation because it is, obfuscation. Until Freak does what he said he was going to do, there is no point in going any further. He hasn't even dealt with Bob's definition for what a miracle is, so Freak has not even stepped up to square one of this so called refutation of Bob's teachings.

Originally posted by 1Way

It is getting obvious that Freak doesn't even know what Bob teaches,

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Lie. I quoted from him and provided my source.

Instead, it's 180 posts later and Freak still has not presented one single counterpoint to ANY of Bob's "teachings",

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Lie. I have pointed out the Scriptural evidence why the man is in error.

He hasn't even dealt with Bob's definition for what a miracle is, so Freak has not even stepped up to square one of this so called refutation of Bob's teachings.

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I have provided the Biblical view of a miracle and have provided ample Scriptural evidence for why I believe Bob is in error.

Others besides myself see you, 1Way, as being a arrogrant, prideful, fleshly man who is incapable of dealing with the truth...sad but quite true. :down:

Here's your homework...go back to post #170 and deal with my points.

If someone calls you a donkey you can dismiss it. If many people perceive that you are a donkey, it might be worth looking in the mirror to see if there is any resemblance. 1Way has been told by various people that his methods and character could use fine-tuning.

Moron: "foolish, a mentally retarded person with IQ ranging from 50-70, an adult with intelligence of 8-12 year old; an obsolescent term for retardation... a very foolish or stupid person" (Webster)

I have 12 years of honors schooling and 7 years of post-secondary honors education, including a B.Th. I have thousands of books and have studied theology for 25 years. I was in pre-med (boasting sarcastically like Paul did with his detractors...I have more to boast of...but consider this dung compared to knowing Christ).

There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom. Education does not ensure discernment or correctness, but it does help one think critically and weigh evidence.

Do I really fit the label "moron" which was started by a psychologist as a technical term?

I do think that Freak and I need to study "The Plot" to credibly deal with the gist of its teachings.

Originally posted by godrulz

If someone calls you a donkey you can dismiss it. If many people perceive that you are a donkey, it might be worth looking in the mirror to see if there is any resemblance. 1Way has been told by various people that his methods and character could use fine-tuning.

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Let's pray that 1 Way will see the error of his ways.

I do think that Freak and I need to study "The Plot" to credibly deal with the gist of its teachings.

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Look I'm not interested in exgeting The Plot. I know what the man basically believes and this is what we are discussing. Enyart teaches that the gift of miracles (and that miracles fosters unbelief) have ceased with the closing of the Canon of Scripture. This I know and this I know to be in error.

Freak you said

Enyart teaches that the gift of miracles (and that miracles fosters unbelief) have ceased with the closing of the Canon of Scripture. This I know and this I know to be in error.

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That is better stated, Enyart claims ... You are disagreeing with two of his claims. I submit that you do not understand why Bob teaches what he does. And it's not realy as much the closing of the cannon, altough that much is pretty accurate, it's also greatly having to do with the beginning of this dispensation and the ending of the last one.

A truth claim is not the entire teaching, it's just the result of a teaching, not the teaching itself. So does Bob's teachings stand without meaningful opposition, or are you going to pick up you mouse and copy and paste and refute away?

Freakinfraud,
You are basically too stupid and/or arrogant to debate with. You are nothing more than a fool to poke fun at.

I admire 1-Way's posts and he is doing a great job. I believe others will learn from his posts and all the more if they put you on "ignore". Meaning, people are better off reading a post where they might learn something instead of wasting time scanning your repeated dribble. We all know the verses that you will continually quote. Now if you only understood CONTEXT. 1-Way has been very patient with you and you do your usual dodge and turn technique.
1-Way seems determined to get an actual answer with you, but the best I think he can do is post some great teaching material from which others can learn. He will eventually realize that trying to have an actual conversation with you is a waste of time.

Originally posted by 1Way

Freak you said That is better stated, Enyart claims

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Finally some progress...

... You are disagreeing with two of his claims.

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That is correct.

I submit that you do not understand why Bob teaches what he does.

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Oh, but I do hence my problem with his teaching in this area as it doesn't line up with Scripture.

And it's not realy as much the closing of the cannon, altough that much is pretty accurate,

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Ah! Good. So you admit I'm "pretty accurate" in understanding Bob's view on this subject. Let's start there...

We are told in Holy Scripture that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. 1Way, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

1Way, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????

Homework for 1Way:

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesus’ miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldn’t they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Can’t we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?

it's also greatly having to do with the beginning of this dispensation and the ending of the last one.

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Under the New Covenant, the superior covenant, we are taught numerous times of the reality of spiritual gifts and miracles. In fact...

At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

So does Bob's teachings stand without meaningful opposition, or are you going to pick up you mouse and copy and paste and refute away?

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Already have.

Originally posted by Shimei

Freak my dear friend whom I support,

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:chuckle: Why don't you go off and play with some of your friends...I'm trying to show 1Way his error.

I just feel so bad to see good people put the cart before the horse. Freak has done it, DeeDee did it when we discussed her Preterism and many others. Kevin from a time ago did it as well. Sheesh, if our theological seminaries are putting out people to preach and reach the lost, you would think they would get it right.



But since I just got off work and read the thread somewhat, I will respond in a few.

And I'm glad to be back. Not that any of you even knew I had left.:chuckle:

Originally posted by drbrumley

I just feel so bad to see good people put the cart before the horse. Freak has done it, DeeDee did it when we discussed her Preterism and many others. Kevin from a time ago did it as well. Sheesh, if our theological seminaries are putting out people to preach and reach the lost, you would think they would get it right.

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This coming from a guy who denies the Holy Scriptures.

Originally posted by Freak

This coming from a guy who denies the Holy Scriptures.

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Excuse me!!!!!!!

Originally posted by drbrumley

Excuse me!!!!!!!

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Yes, you have denied the Holy Scriptures when it comes to understanding this subject of miracles & spiritual gifts. :down:

Originally posted by Freak

Yes, you have denied the Holy Scriptures when it comes to understanding this subject of miracles & spiritual gifts. :down:

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:nono: Your a :crackup: :freak:

Originally posted by drbrumley

:nono: Your a :crackup: :freak:

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You're a pathetic so-called believer. What about dealing with the truth. You said about a week or so ago that you would deal with my points. You haven't. I know why you haven't---because the truth of Scripture has spoken in my favor! Case close!

Originally posted by Freak

You're a pathetic so-called believer. What about dealing with the truth. You said about a week or so ago that you would deal with my points. You haven't. I know why you haven't---because the truth of Scripture has spoken in my favor! Case close!

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FYI, I said I was working on it on my word processer and I'll get to this. I said this on 1-11. Then I had some personnal issues I had to deal with and haven't been on hardly at all except for some driveby posts. Also, If I recall, you had said you were leaving for an extended time. So I didnt pay much attention to this thread. So now, you pathetic piece of humanity, I have lost any and all respect for you. Is this what you do at home? Attack?If not, don't do it here! I will respond to your assertions on miracles tonight. I promise. If that is not good enough for you, then you aren't worth talking to in the first place.

In Christ,
DRBrumley

What kind of miracles are you all talking about exactly?
I haven't read all 190+ posts nor do I have any intention of doing so but just from reading the last several posts I think it to be a safe assumption that the disagreement revolves around the occurrence of supernatural physical miracles.
If my assumption is correct, I think that the dispute can be settled more conclusively by the presentation of clear evidence. You guys could go on forever quibbling about which verses of Scripture should be paid closer attention to and how those Scriptures should be interpreted but you will never get any closer to resolving the issue because none of you are interesting in learning anything on this issue but instead want merely to try to present to everyone else how wrong they are.
So here's the challenge...

If supernatural physical miracles are happening today then there should be evidence to support that claim.
God has never done any miracles in a closet. Even the ones Jesus performed that He specifically said that He didn't want publicized had so many witnesses that they could not be kept secret.
So show me the evidence.
Not anecdotal evidence but real, undeniable, clearly documented evidence that I can independently verify through convention means.
The lack of such expository evidence would be proof that supernatural physical miracles do not happen today.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Freaks idea of miracles and Bob's idea of miralces are vastly different...

Freaks idea of miracles and Bob's idea of miralces are vastly different...

Shimei - Bless your soul, you blessed mine. Thank you and I fully agree. It is a riot about Freaks so called challenge against Bob's teachings. Even though I had to present Bob's teachings in a vein hope of getting Freak to respond to them, it's been 200 posts and Freak has not made one single argument against his teachings. He has argued why he disagrees with some of Bob's claims, but hasn't even addressed what he actually teaches. To Freaks credit, it is possible to make a general reference to someone's teaching and refute it in a logical and appropriate way, but Freak doesn't even use the same definition for what a miracle is AND he has not established which is right by doing a point, counter-point refutation.

Freaks argumentation boils down to name it and claim it. He does not show a practical working knowledge of the difference between such tremendously complex and sophisticated ideas as

a truth claim -vrs- an entire teaching including support reasoning
a disagreement with a truth claim -vrs- and a refutation of a teaching

With Freaks style of refutation, the JW's are right because they say we are wrong, and they can show reasons why they are right all day long. I will not entertain obfuscation as a replacement for Freak doing what he said he would do. Well, perhaps sometime I will, since Freak probably will never actually do what he said he would do. I'm sure that Freak understands part of what Bob teaches, especially if he read the online material, I would have no problem advancing if Freak would just first demonstrate an accurate working knowledge of what he is going to say is wrong. If you do not know what you are opposing, then you are just an ignorant person, spouting off what you think is right making any sort of sound refutation impossible.

Also, as to the teachings that Bob has given via my presentation, no one has remotely dented them in the least. Freak is a coward, and is willfully blind. But, such things are pretty evident. Thank you kindly for standing up for the truth. Maybe we will have to change the subject of this thread to something like

Freak disagrees w/Bob on miracles, but he can not represent his teachings beyond simple claims

subtitle
It's just an excuse for Freak to monologue what he thinks is right in his own eyes, so the challenge (refutation) against Bob's teachings was a complete lie. What I don't understand is, how can anyone live with themselves acting the way he does. For him, he can lie right to your face a hundred times in a row :freak: :sozo2: :readthis: , and at the same time, put on the biggest display of religious trumplery possible.

Wouldn't it be like inconceivable for him to stop all this bologna and actually do what he said he would do?

Clete - I thik we mostly agree, but you may have overstated the futility factor of the efforts given. At least on the issue of miracles tending to generate faith or not. By Bob's teaching about faith, that it's about things not seen, and things hoped for, miracles require or excercize exactly zero amount of faith to affirm a miracle. Also, Jesus's teachings on the topic are purely against his side so the bible does have conclusive things to say on this issue. The futility enters not in Bob or myself or Jesus arguing these points, it's in Freaks total aversion to the truth of the matter.

Your idea sounds great though, unsubstantiated claims (compared to the biblical results of most recorded miracles) is a solid argument that miracles have ceased for about 2,000 years. Good luck getting any different results from the Freak. You will need it.

Clete: There are books, biographies, autobiographies, ministries, medical files, etc. that document God's miracles (I have listed some previously). You need to flow in Pentecostal circles or look harder. The evidence is out there (I hope if you saw it you would not attribute it to the devil?!).

1Way: I do not remember if you answered my recent query about divine healing? I pointed out non-Pentecostal/charismatic denominations who pray for the sick and see God heal their members or the lost. Does your church pray for the sick and see people healed? If so, is healing a miracle category? If not, then maybe your doctrine needs changing to impact your praxis.

Is obfuscation your favorite word?
Should you get so discombolutated (my showy word of the day) when your brothers and sisters in Christ do not buy into every detail of your church's theology and practice? The Holy Spirit seems to have more tolerance as He uses and blesses the Body of Christ across all denominations. There are few things worse than a 'Christian Pharisee'. Diversity within unity, not cultic uniformity (not at the expense of essential truth).