Just One Gospel?

godrulz

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Originally posted by Clete

If so then....

Where in the four gospels is Jesus ever recorded as having uttered the word grace?

Where in the four gospels did Jesus ever say anything remotely like, "...if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Where did Jesus ever say, "Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. ", or "if you become circumcised, I (Christ) will profit you nothing."

Where? Did anyone before Paul ever say such things in connection with the gospel? NO! I think not! Either the Gospel changed or else Paul is a fraud. Take your pick.!

Are you going to respond to the questions or continue to avoid the point?

Resting in Him,
Clete

John 1 reminds us that Jesus was full of grace. His message was mercy and grace.

His message was to trust and follow Him. This is the core of Paul's message. Paul talked about the resurrection after the fact. Jesus did not emphasize it because He had not risen yet.

Paul expanded on the heart of the message of Christ, but he did not contradict the essence of it: repentance from sin and faith in the person and work of Christ.
 

godrulz

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Originally posted by elected4ever

Although the content of the messages of Paul and the 12 were different it was still the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Matthew 24:14 _And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


The context of this verse is the Great Tribulation, not the age of Grace or the Church Age.
 

Clete

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Originally posted by godrulz

John 1 reminds us that Jesus was full of grace. His message was mercy and grace.

His message was to trust and follow Him. This is the core of Paul's message. Paul talked about the resurrection after the fact. Jesus did not emphasize it because He had not risen yet.

Paul expanded on the heart of the message of Christ, but he did not contradict the essence of it: repentance from sin and faith in the person and work of Christ.
Paul expanded nothing. He taught a gospel that he specifically said has been kept hidden until Jesus Himself revealed it to him.
Further, if what you say is so, why Paul? What was the point in bringing Paul into the picture? Weren't the twelve commanded to "go unto the whole world and preach the gospel"? Why did they disobey that command and minister to the circumcision (Israel) while Paul went to the gentiles? Was there something wrong with them?
Further still, Jesus explicitly commanded His disciples NOT to tell anyone about the fact that He was the Messiah or that He was to be crucified.

  • Luke 9:18 And it happened, as He was alone praying, that His disciples joined Him, and He asked them, saying, "Who do the crowds say that I am?"

    19 So they answered and said, "John the Baptist, but some say Elijah; and others say that one of the old prophets has risen again."

    20He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

    Peter answered and said, "The Christ of God."

    21 And He strictly warned and commanded them to tell this to no one, 22 saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day."

And yet in verse 6 of the very same chapter it says...

  • 6 So they departed and went through the towns, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.

So if they weren't preaching anything about the death or resurrection of Jesus, what were they preaching? Is it even remotely possible to preach the gospel today and leave out the death and resurrection of Jesus? Certainly not! I don't care what else you believe today, if you do not believe that Jesus died and was raised from the dead three days later, you are not saved, period. And yet Jesus and His disciples preached the gospel according to all four gospels. So either they were preaching a different gospel or the gospels are in error, one or the other.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

elected4ever

New member
Originally posted by Clete

What I am saying is that you are not answering the question.

Where in the four gospels is Jesus ever recorded as having uttered the word grace?

Where in the four gospels did Jesus ever say anything remotely like, "...if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Where did Jesus ever say, "Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. ", or "if you become circumcised, I (Christ) will profit you nothing."

Where? Did anyone before Paul ever say such things in connection with the gospel? NO! I think not! Either the Gospel changed or else Paul is a fraud. Take your pick.!


I want for you to answer these questions directly! Will you do it, or will you continue to ignore the argument? This is now the 3rd time (or 4th if you count the responses you've made to Turbo) that you have evaded answering the questions posed to you. Are you still confused about why someone might thing you were a bit cryptic or vague in communicating your beliefs? Stop playing games and just answer the questions. If your position is correct you should be able to do so without doing injury to your position. If that cannot be done then your case is beyond weak and you should desire to abandon your position for one that more closely adheres to the Biblical record.

Resting in Him,
Clete
Me thinks you are shooting skiters with an elephant gun.
 

Clete

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Originally posted by elected4ever

Me thinks you are shooting skiters with an elephant gun.
I am doing nothing but asking a simple question or two. Will you answer them or not?

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

ApologeticJedi

New member
godrulz said: Paul expanded on the heart of the message of Christ, but he did not contradict the essence of it: repentance from sin and faith in the person and work of Christ.

Even backing off the issue that far shows that you couldn't find a true similarity. For Paul stresses the belief in the work of Christ, but actually Jesus just stressed the belief in the person of Christ.

They are different. For instance, Christ tells people they should not eat flesh sacrificed to idols. Paul says that it is okay. Christ tells poeple that they should follow the ordinances that the Pharisees give when they teach from the seat of Moses. Paul says that we should not follow the law.

I understand the point of view that says they are close enough that if we step far enough back, and look with squinted eyes, they bear some small resemblances toward one another. However any look at basic structure of the two gospels will show that they are not the same.

The message Jesus and His apostles taught had nothing to do with His death! As it was pointed out, Jesus told his apostles not to tell anyone that He said He would die. And not only were they told not to say anything, but they didn't believe Him themselves. These apostles then went out and taught a kingdom gospel that didn't speak of Jesus' death (his work) only that he was Messiah (his person).

Would that work today? I submit that the gospel cannot today be rightly told without the knowledge that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. That is what we place our faith in, is it not? Yet, it could not have been what the disciples placed their faith in. They placed their faith in Jesus as the Messhiah.

Yes, both are placing their faith in Jesus, so if we back far enough away it looks like similar blurs on the horizon. But when you can stand where you can see both clearly for what they are, it is evident they are not the same.
 

Clete

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Originally posted by elected4ever

When you answer mine

Your what?

You've asked me nothing except in response to my having asked you these questions.

If you can't answer them just say so.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
Last edited:

Turbo

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It was split from another thread in another forum. (I added a note at the beginning of the thread.)
 

MercyBreeze

New member
Yep... I saw that. :)

Two GREAT arguments (points) that were shared I'd like to highlight again...

Clete:
Further, if what you say is so, why Paul? What was the point in bringing Paul into the picture? Weren't the twelve commanded to "go unto the whole world and preach the gospel"? Why did they disobey that command and minister to the circumcision (Israel) while Paul went to the gentiles? Was there something wrong with them?
Further still, Jesus explicitly commanded His disciples NOT to tell anyone about the fact that He was the Messiah or that He was to be crucified.

Phenomenal questions that are actually more vital to answer than the other three or four that keep being repeated to no avail.
;)

ApologeticJedi:
Yes, both are placing their faith in Jesus, so if we back far enough away it looks like similar blurs on the horizon. But when you can stand where you can see both clearly for what they are, it is evident they are not the same.

No doubt it seems so elementary, but AJ, your statement here was so refreshingly unique to me that I had to say it. Great way to word it, sir. :)

In Christ Alone,

Mercy
 

elected4ever

New member
Originally posted by MercyBreeze

Yep... I saw that. :)

Two GREAT arguments (points) that were shared I'd like to highlight again...

Clete:


Phenomenal questions that are actually more vital to answer than the other three or four that keep being repeated to no avail.
;)

ApologeticJedi:


No doubt it seems so elementary, but AJ, your statement here was so refreshingly unique to me that I had to say it. Great way to word it, sir. :)

In Christ Alone,

Mercy
But they are the same. If I were speaking of myself then the speech I us will be totally different than the speech you might use to describe me. So it is with Paul and Jesus. That does not make it a different gospel but a continuation of the same Gospel.
 

Sozo

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e4e, Clete, Turbo, whoever... What kinds of things do you think that the disciples were saying when they preached the gospel of the kingdom?
 

MercyBreeze

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Sozo,

I, being dispensational, believe that the disciples taught Jesus as the Messiah, crucified and risen. They did not, however, teach grace in the terms that we now are saved, for they included a preaching of the Mosaic Law as customary for those who believed. Paul was given revelation of two very distinct things (one of which Peter came to understand in Acts 10)...

1. That this Crucified and Risen Lord was not only salvation for the Jews, but now also for the Gentiles as one unit... not seperate entities.

2. That the Mosaic Law was no longer the instruction to those who are considered the children of God, for "we are not under law, but under grace."

The Disciples taught Jesus crucified and risen, yes. But along side of that teaching were instructions to continue honoring the Law of Moses. Something that you and I don't do today.... at least not all 616 of them. :)

Mercy
 

Poly

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Originally posted by Sozo

e4e, Clete, Turbo, whoever... What kinds of things do you think that the disciples were saying when they preached the gospel of the kingdom?

The same thing that John the Baptist was preaching. Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.
 
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