The Absolute Foreknowledge of God - by Bob Hill

omni-gnosis

omni-gnosis

Hi Ant,

You wrote:

You say that we have free will, and God honours that. However, I don't think absolute foreknowledge necessarily violates free will. So therefore I think the moral objection for God knowing the future is invalid.


)============= An interesting assumption/point. This is a wonderful thing to look deeper into. Without getting to deep .......I have suggested in the past that there are certain dynamics at work within the 'field' wherein mans free will and Gods omniscience intersect/interact...in the playing out/unfolding of Life...in time and eternity. Perhaps we can explore these 'dynamics'....if we can figure what they are. :angel:

Of course generally most accept that Gods omniscience covers past, present and future dimensions of awareness....as He transcends time and is oustide of time in a sense....being Eternal...and Eternally aware - this state of Being includes knowledge of all that is, was and will be - our area of focus relative to this inquiry is the 'will be' aspect - its dimensional unfolding and the factors which determine outcomes and ultimately destiny.
It is assumed by certain logic...that if one truly has a degree of free will....then such a will may determine by its own liberty of choice.....its station...and ultimately its destiny. I dont think its so much a moral objection to God knowing the entirety and finality of our fate or destiny...as it is in understanding the dynamics which factor in its determination.


Peace,


paul

Peace freelight

It always mystifies me when someone states that God must act within the confines of His Being

when that Very Being is ETERNAL and FOREVER.

We my friend do not even have a single CLUE about His Being except for His Word (which is subject to some amount of mystery as well eh?) and His creation.

There is also the occaisional "revelation."

What God has prepared for those who love Him has not even ENTERED OUR IMAGINATIONS yet alone the "confines" of His Being.

I prefer to leave Him as He has presented. Eternal. Eternal has no BOUNDRIES and we cannot DEFINE Him or LIMIT Him in ANY WAY.

To do so is IDOLOTRY.

smaller

true to nature.........

true to nature.........

Hi smaller,

Indeed, there are wonders and glories that God has prepared for us that are beyond our present conception and ability to fathom - my thesis stands as already presented - God is true to His own nature/constitution....therefore he will not and cannot do that which is not in accord with His character.....because one cannot Be what He is not - therefore.......He wills and does only that which is consistent with His divine nature and within its powers.
God is true to His divine nature and acts accordingly to its laws. If you review my previous commentary this has been one aspect of God to consider. This is not imposing some kind of restriction on God(as if a mortal could)....but recognizing that God is lawful and true to His own Being.....and will not/and maybe cannot act in a way that is contrary to His Being...because He is always TRUE. God being eternal and never changing further emphasizes that these things will then be eternally true.

Summary: to say that God is unlimited, has no bounderies...and cannot be defined...may be relatively true(due to our limited knowledge)...but such statements would require qualification. Recognizing that God does work within the perimeters of the ethic and nature of His Being/divine nature....(such logically has certain bounderies in which to act in contrast to assumed possibilities that he can act in other ways)...and that certain features of God CAN be defined......is NOT idolatry.

In the unfolding of our recognition......we are learning more and more from the Spirit of truth about Truth.....and therefore more and more about Gods ways.....even if such continual revelation shows us more and more of his eternality, infinity, immortality.......still....He is what/who He IS by Nature/constitution as the Sole Source/Nucleus of all that IS/WAS/WILL BE.....and such issues of government thruout His Universe is sustained by certain laws relative to all things/beings.......in all dimensions - these laws/ways are learned by us in our ascent Godward...naturally. Therefore.....as we attain more God-consciousness (the mind of Christ)....we become more and more like God.....which grants us more divine knowledge. True,....there may be an infinity of the unknown in our adventure in God.....yet such will be the same God/divine nature unfolding itself to our ever blooming consciousness. In these higher states of being/mind/spirit.......we will be living more purely and attuned to Gods divine nature/laws.....and such will be the motivating power within us to Live in the Spirit ...according to the Spirit....in the Light....in the divine Love. We will be living within the lawful dimensions of this Love....and so will be true to it making the possibility for sin(any transgression of the law of love) less and less possible. This is another wondrous subject.......but hopefully my original thesis has been affirmed/expounded on.

IN our spiritual life within God.....there is the known and the unknown.....the seeming limited and unlimited....the seeming bound and boundless - in our unfolding of consciousness...there will always be these two perhaps fluctuating aspects....ever evolving according to our station and souls growth in the Light.


paul

Your thesis is just another limit upon One who has no limits.

All things SERVE Him.

He Himself is NOT BOUND by anything.

It is the PRIDE of men that seek to say "THIS IS HOW GOD IS" with a limit in their mouths.

God is the God of ALL FLESH. AS such He is NOT THEIR SUBJECT, but VICE VERSA.

In this I see freewill as an IDOL of the highest order. It is Gods Word that is to REIGN at the TOP which is YOUR MIND AND HEART, not the supposed "freewill." Those who are His understand this order.

The man of "freewill" is a resistor and a limit and an idol worshipper.

You say God must bow to your ideas of LOGIC. So in this LOGIC is your God. You say, WELL God OPERATES through certain principles, therefore He is BOUND by them.

The FACT is ALL THINGS serve HIM. Whatever IS.

So there are those who understand that with God NOTHING is impossible and that ALL THINGS are POSSIBLE, just as Jesus SPOKE. God is also INVISIBLE.

Yet we find that IDOL WORSHIPPERS desire to see God BOUND. They say to God YOU MUST RESPOND in a certain fashion BECAUSE I said so.

God is AT THE TOP, ETERNAL, WITHOUT ENDING. There is NOTHING in the hands of His creation that will somehow CAPTURE THIS in His entirety.

So in the supposed LIGHT of freewill we find men that say GOD WILL BURN and TORTURE PEOPLE FOREVER, and as such they are resistors of Gods Will, who will have ALL to be saved.

Does God get His Will? Not according to MOST freewillers. You MAY be the exception. We have not dug far enough yet.

God used EVIL and LIES and made GOOD come about. Men EXCUSE God for committing "justifiable homicide" because they say HE CANNOT DO EVIL, but the FACT of the matter is

EVIL SERVES HIM just as ALL THINGS DO.

To say that EVIL cannot or does not serve God is to PLACE EVIL as a bigger and better POWER than God for GOD somehow cannot touch it.

I prefer that HE IS SO OVERWHELMING that He can do ANYTHING HE WANTS to and in that I TRUST.

You want to place LOGIC over trust? Rules and regulations?

How about we just acknowledge His Eternity and BOW to Him.

In this there is NO ARGUMENT or CONDEMNATION for we understand that He is in complete control of ALL THINGS...

and we ourselves do not desire to be BOUND either, except to THE ONE WITHOUT LIMITS.

enjoy!

smaller

Reminds me of the new farm extenstion agent who went up to an old farmer and started telling him about all the new things he learned in aggie school and how he was having classes . . . farmer said, "Not interested." New kid says, "I can teach you to farm twice as good as you are farming. Old Timer replies, "I already know how to farm twice as good as I am farming." If God has exhaustive foreknowledge and is omnipotent . . . .

While a brilliant Post, and long live Augustine via Plato..the problem is the immutability of the future. If the future is fixed, then by connection God must respond in certain ways to produce that future. Which means that God is limited by what he can do. In effect, God is boxed in by his own foreknowledge..and what diety would wish that on itself.

I cite...the argument with Abraham about the number of innoncent people in Sodom, the decision to destroy the earth by flood, his mercy concerning Ninevah...(which upset Jonah no end), and I bet there are others.

God does allow a certain amout of free will to flourish, and I am sure he cried during the Holocaust......but man's free will does exist.....and so does God's.

Or all free will...is an illusion.

Peace Emmaus Road

ALL of CREATION is indeed LIMITED. It is only God who is not. In the "scenario" of the "limited" God does indeed know and predict EXACTLY what He is doing, and yes

freewill is not only an illusion, but not even remotely true or possible.

enjoy!

smaller

:ha:

What did the calvinist say after he fell and broke his leg?

"I sure am glad that's over with!"

Originally posted by smaller
I prefer to leave Him as He has presented. Eternal. Eternal has no BOUNDRIES and we cannot DEFINE Him or LIMIT Him in ANY WAY.

To do so is IDOLOTRY.

smaller

Click to expand...

Really? Are you sure you don't wish to modify this statement somewhat?

Is God free to rape your mother?
Or would you say that crosses a boundry somewhere?

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I appologize to all those who don't agree with smaller for the offensive nature of my question. But I just wanted to take smallers foggy logic to it furthest logical conclusion to see if it would be enough to turn the lights on inside. :idea:

Who determines God's perfection, Plato or God?

Who determines God's perfection, Plato or God?

The Immutability of God

Plato

This syllogism reflects God's immutability from Plato's view. God is perfect. The perfect does not change. God does not change. Plato wrote in "A dialogue between Socrates and Adeimantus" in The Republic :

"First we will look at it from Plato’s viewpoint:"

"The perfect does not change.God is perfect.God does not change."

Not in His righteousness no.

However,Perhaps it's because of his perfection he changes in some ways. :think:

God is love. This is perfection and the best possible state and love will change it's mind;...It will grieve...hate..etc, as we see through out the scriptures..

He changes his mind. He changes from one emotion to the next..
That's not the evidence against perfection, but the definition of it.

It's just not Plato's defininition :chuckle:

Shadowx

*definition

Re: Who determines God's perfection, Plato or God?

Re: Who determines God's perfection, Plato or God?

Originally posted by Shadowx

The Immutability of God

Plato

This syllogism reflects God's immutability from Plato's view. God is perfect. The perfect does not change. God does not change. Plato wrote in "A dialogue between Socrates and Adeimantus" in The Republic :

"First we will look at it from Plato’s viewpoint:"

"The perfect does not change.God is perfect.God does not change."

Not in His righteousness no.

However,Perhaps it's because of his perfection he changes in some ways. :think:

God is love. This is perfection and the best possible state and love will change it's mind;...It will grieve...hate..etc, as we see through out the scriptures..

He changes his mind. He changes from one emotion to the next..
That's not the evidence against perfection, but the definition of it.

It's just not Plato's defininition :chuckle:

Shadowx

Click to expand...

:first: POTD

Thanks knight for the trophy..

Thanks knight for the trophy..

Wow, where to start..I had a speech all prepared..but I have forgotten it..

Lets see, I would like to thank the academy, MrsT (for her award winning frozen foods..) the Benny Hinnite 'I'm currently debating via email, for all the laughs he has brought into my life...and last but first, God, for continuing to refuse to take responsibility for the Israelites murdering their own children, no matter how hard some Calvinist try to impute it to Him doing all His pleasure...:nono:




Thanks,

Shadowx


Determinist: "You just don't like it that you are not in control"
Shadowx: "You just don't like being responsible"

Re: Thanks knight for the trophy..

Re: Thanks knight for the trophy..

Originally posted by Shadowx

Wow, where to start..I had a speech all prepared..but I have forgotten it..

Lets see, I would like to thank the academy, MrsT (for her award winning frozen foods..) the Benny Hinnite 'I'm currently debating via email, for all the laughs he has brought into my life...and last but first, God, for continuing to refuse to take responsibility for the Israelites murdering their own children, no matter how hard some Calvinist try to impute it to Him doing all His pleasure...:nono:

Thanks,

Shadowx


Determinist: "You just don't like it that you are not in control"
Shadowx: "You just don't like being responsible"

Click to expand...

ROTFL :darwinsm:

Your response to having been chosen for POTD is just as brilliant as the POTD itself! I love it! Very sharp! Keep em comming!

Clete

I don't have a problem with some friendly Calvinistic mocking, even if I were a Calvinist. It just so happens that I am a long stone's throw from being there.

But the problem of God taking (or not taking) "responsibility for the Israelites murdering their own children" won't be so easily brushed aside, even by open theists. OV-ers (sometimes) come across as rather smug on this point, when in fact, by solving (at least in their mind) one small problem, they open up a new set of problems, just as formidable to OVers as the former problem is to Calvinists.

I'm looking forward to the big debate. I'd like to see a well-versed Calvinist step up to the plate. What about Hilston? He leans that way.

Hello Lightstorm,

But the problem of God taking (or not taking) "responsibility for the Israelites murdering their own children" won't be so easily brushed aside, even by open theists. OV-ers (sometimes) come across as rather smug on this point, when in fact, by solving (at least in their mind) one small problem, they open up a new set of problems, just as formidable to OVers as the former problem is to Calvinists.

Care to elaborate?
I think I know what you mean, but I don't want to be presumptuous..well, I do, but I will suppress it..

You do realize this is not the only instance where God distances himself from the actions occurring, right?
The Bible has many examples of God saying, basically, I didn't command this..

I think you may find that I'm perhaps not the type of OVer that others are...
I believe God can control another person whenever he wants to. If fallen angels have this ability, God must also have it. But God is not about the business of behaving like fallen angles..
He is righteous..and I believe we can know what that means...

I believe God can't make people he wants to "freely" choose him freely choose him..
What kind of freedom am I talking about? Being able to do contrary to what God wants...
God shows us we can indeed do just that.
He made us this way, because he wants us to love him..and be able to love others..

Just a few verses..

Ac 13:22"And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all my will...'

Really?..Did God will David to murder Uriah and steal his wife? DId God want David to seduce a good mans wife and have him murdered? Then God got mad about it...?

Hmm..A man after God's own heart..Is God's heart prone to seducing other men's wives and then having them murdered?

1ki 15:5 because David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life[B/], EXCEPT in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

Nope, God's heart nor his ways are always ours..(He says this in Isaiah 55:8) if he controls all things, they would be..

He did all God commanded, except..that which God didn't command..and was anger about.

Ps 50:17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.
Ps 50:18 When thou sawest a thief, then thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers.
Ps 50:19 Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit.
Ps 50:20 Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother's son.
Ps 50:21These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.

You resisted what I wanted, Now I'm going to show you the contrast between YOU and ME. You thought I was like you??

It's ok if God allows men to resist him isn't?

Jeremiah 29: 23. Because they have committed villany in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbours' wives, and have spoken lying words in my name, which I have not commanded them; even I know, and am a witness, saith the Lord.

God is not a witness against himself of this wrong doing by Israel.
Some Calvinist have this witness though..(Against God)

I have a few Calvinist friends, one of them has been like a father to me...(70 year old somewhat retired pastor) We have had some really good fellowship..and I have learned a lot from him..(I have also learned a lot from Enyart and Hill..)
He is not as Calvinistic though as he once was.


I also administrate a chat..and I chose a Presbyterian as a co admin :chuckle:
He is also not as Calvinistic as he once was and he doesn't feel comfortable anymore with the idea that God makes all our choices for us..

So, I may come across as smug at times..with regards to some things, but that's only because I am..:chuckle:

Just kidding with you man..


Godbless,
Shadowx

P.S. A debate on the Open View between Hilston and Enyart would rock..I would pay 200.00 bucks just for a ticket in..

Your response to having been chosen for POTD is just as brilliant as the POTD itself! I love it! Very sharp! Keep em comming!

Clete

Thank you Clete.

Originally posted by Shadowx
P.S. A debate on the Open View between Hilston and Enyart would rock..I would pay 200.00 bucks just for a ticket in..

Click to expand...

I considered Hilston... but I am afraid he is stuck in the Matrix, i.e., obfuscation would be thick.

Well, if Hilston is out..how about..Brian Schwertley lol..
I would give around 30 bucks to see that one..
Wait...I already did...


Bye the way, *lightson* I didn't mean to call you lightstorm.
We have a web we are working on called, lightstorm ministries..


Shadowx

Originally posted by Shadowx

Well, if Hilston is out..how about..Brian Schwertley lol..
I would give around 30 bucks to see that one..
Wait...I already did...



Shadowx

Click to expand...

So did I and it was well worth the money!!