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Thread: Word-Faith Movement: heretical? - Battle Royale V - Paul DeYonghe vs. famousGandalf7

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    Smile Faith is Still Standing in Round Four

    As to faith in my faith, etc. I have no faith in me, whatsoever. I know my shortcomings. I know where I messed up. I believe in my faith enough to know that the faith that is in me is from God, and not from myself. He gave unto each of us 'the measure of faith.' I believe that means no one gets short-changed on that transaction. I believe that those who never place their faith in God will have no excuse, as to why they never believed in Jesus. I believe what Jesse Duplantis quoted from David about the way in which he wrote the Psalms sums up the desires of my heart, I loaned the book to someone who did not return it or I would quote it precisely. It said something to the effect that he wished he had spoken less of his own troubles in the writings in Psalms, and expounded more of the character and goodness of the Lord. That is a strong thing to think about. I always believed that when I read Psalms, there was so much in there about God and His goodness; but I know that there is just so much more than we can even begin to imagine.

    I am one of the most teachable people I know. I can't be persuaded of something that God does not want me to believe. He is the One who gave us knowledge of Jesus being the Christ, and that, or rather, He (the Holy Spirit) is alive in me; and He witnesses to me with guidance and direction as to what to accept and what to reject. Often He does so, and I have no idea how Scriptural His leadings are, until during my study time He shows me. I am always reverent and thankful for His Presence, and delight in being corrected. I love conviction. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." -- Romans 8:14 Now, if someone believes EVERY word that any man says (save the Lord, who is not only ALL man but also ALL God) then he needs to look to what or who his faith is in. Mine is not in men, obviously, it is in God. My faith, in which I believe, even if you think I don't, and in which my God also believes: "Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith." -- Habakkuk 2:4 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." -- Heb. 11:6

    I have seen a few obscure remarks, over which I am sure these men have heard far more than we can imagine from both their enemies (many, it would seem within the Body of Christ) and from their proponents. I don't see that the foundation, the fundamental teachings, the beliefs or the precepts of the 'Word of Faith,' which by the way is not a movement or organization, but a 'catch-phrase' started by those in the media, trying to defame the good works of Spirit-Filled ministers all over the planet. As long as there are differences there will be strife. When the Body of Christ finally matures, she will stand as one, and not before. Read the fourth chapter of the Book of Ephesians for yourself, and see what we are to be.

    I think this guy did a pretty good job of sumarrizing it:
    "God rewards our faith by providing that which we believe Him for. So many times Jesus has made statements such as "according to thy faith be it unto thee" and "Thy faith has made thee whole." He has made answered prayer conditional upon faith (Mark 11:22-24; James 1:5-7; 5:14-16) and doing His works (John 14:12). God in His sovereignty has decided that He will only reward those who will believe Him. Anyone who does not believe makes God a liar and that person cannot expect to receive from God (1 John 5:10).

    The Bible is full of example of those who limit God from working in their lives due to unbelief (Num. 13-14; Matt. 13:58; 17:20; Heb. 3-4). It has nothing to do with God's sovereign will to bless or not bless.

    God, in His sovereignty, has decided to respond to FAITH and will do so because He is Holy. This does not make Him man's servant as the critics want to imply. He still requires our obedience (which is what faith is), our worship, and our reverence. Word-Faith, by no means, has delegated the Almighty One to the level of a servant. Instead, we have recognized Him as our Father with whom we obey. -- Brother Troy Edwards

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    DING DING DING

    That's it for round 4.

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    ANY AND ALL POSTS ON THIS THREAD WILL BE DELETED UNLESS THEY ARE POSTED BY: Me (Knight), Becky, Paul DeYonghe or famousGandalf7. You may discuss Battle Royale V here.
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    Round Five: The “Dozens”

    “Where’s the beef? Where’s the beef?” my opponent asks me
    He tsks me, he tasks me
    Attacks while I’m kickin’ back—see?
    Well I’ll up the steaks, I got his beef right here
    No B.S.’in’ here
    I won’t hand you a bum steer
    The “famous” is ripe for a choice prime ribbin’
    Tenderize his lies with knowledge I’ve been given
    And just when you think the joke’s been udderly played
    I milk it just a bit more, pass the mic off to J—

    But wait, but wait, these doctrines still assail
    I expect a decent fight, but fG7 seems to flail:
    “These doctrines are impurity—
    No, they’re immaturity—
    No, they’re from obscurity—
    Wait, these things are Pagan.”
    All the while streaming from the lips of Copeland-Hagin
    Well I’d rather snuff Skoal than be dippin’ from that tin
    Or listen to Benny Hinn
    And wind up in the Loony Binn
    Little gods who’ll perish like the frauds that they are
    Try to store their faith in words like fruit in a jar—what?
    Faith isn’t the Force, man, this ain’t no movie, it’s real life
    With all its joys and its sorrows, all its struggle and strife
    I know you’d rather walk streets of gold than dirt
    But for now you’ll have to put up with the pain and the hurt

    While I was taking time off, just exploring the board
    You pulled a sneak attack, you must be out of your gourd
    You shouldn’t have tried to cross this mad Berean,
    Now you’ve been caught just like the Chaldean
    Drinking his own urine and eating his dung
    You mess around with DeYonghe, you wind up getting stung
    And now that my rhyming skills have made you meek
    I’ll step down off the mic, provide the content you seek


    Well, judging from the last post, it looks like fG7 is willing to pull every other Word-Faith “apologetic” trick out of the bag except “touch not mine anointed.” Obfuscation, deflection, and camouflage are all evidenced here. He tries to cloud the issue of faith once again, claim obscurity for the heresies of the Faith teachers, attempts to deflect conversation away from the Movement by claiming it’s not a movement, then tries to pass off the Movement as a subset of charismaticism.

    fG7 would have one believe that the heresies I’ve listed above are not part of the foundational beliefs of the Movement. That’s only partly correct; some of them are, some aren’t. The “Incarnation” comment made by Hagin may not, in and of itself, be a core tenet of the Movement, but it aligns nicely with the “little gods” doctrine, which is. The “man created in equality with God” comment made by Hagin has been echoed by the other faith teachers enough to be considered core; Benny Hinn claimed Adam could fly and go to the moon. The confession of healing over one’s body, claiming health by divine right, is part-and-parcel of the Movement—I know of no Word-Faith teacher who doesn’t teach this. All of this dances around the true issue: fG7’s unwillingness to call a spade a spade. He’s done everything but own up to the fact that these men teach (or have taught) grave theological error. If these men have received so much feedback about these statements, why don’t they publicly retract them?

    As to the Movement not being a movement, that’s absurd. The Movement holds at least two big conventions here yearly: Hagin’s Campmeeting and Victory’s Word Explosion. (I used to go to the latter, until one year some Word Shrapnel hit me in the eye.) These conventions gather like-minded teachers: the Copelands, Hinns, Cerullos, and Hickeys of the world. If the Movement isn’t distinct, why not have a John MacArthur or a Max Lucado, one of your more mainline evangelicals, give a message? And the “word of Faith” catchphrase being media-invented? I’ve seen no evidence of this, but I do know that Hagin’s periodical is called The Word of Faith.

    As to trying to disguise the Movement as a grouping of “Spirit-Filled” believers, I take offense on behalf of charismatics everywhere, even though I’m not one. Many of the Movements most vocal opponents have come from within charismaticism, including Charles Farah, D.R. McConnell, Walter Martin, and yes, Hank Hanegraaf.
    "To deny Calvinism is to deny the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Charles Spurgeon

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    Fluff and Sacrilege

    I find most of what you said could be compared to the current trend on +OL to display cartoons instead of theology-type comment. There is revelry where there should be consecration and fluff imposing itself as content. The Lord is not glorified by these things.

    I will respond to the one thing which I feel is sacreligeous in your remarks...
    The confession of healing over one’s body, claiming health by divine right, is part-and-parcel of the Movement—I know of no Word-Faith teacher who doesn’t teach this.
    OK, now we're getting real. This is the faith stuff. Does the 'Word of Faith Movement,' as you are so fond of calling this group of preachers you have chosen to single out, teach heresy in regards to health and healing. Well, do you believe that God, in the Bible, called Himself Jehovah Rophe, meaning, "I Am the God that healeth thee?" (Exodus 15:26) I do. By the way, I don't believe that God operates on coincedence, and I believe that the word Rophe is placed in the middle of the word 'prophet' for a very profound reason. It is to let us know what the office of the prophet is designed for: HEALING.

    My Bible also teaches me that I am to choose whom I serve. (Joshua 24:15) I am to keep in mind that I have the power of life and death in my tongue. (Proverbs 18:21) The Lord Himself set the precedent we have for operating in faith and 'positive confession,' as you call it. (Genesis 1:3) I believe that He could have done what you think would have been right in that situation, when the darkness covered the face of the deep: He could have confessed the circumstances, by saying, "Wow. It sure is dark." But what good does that do? None. He spoke the solution. There never was light, there was no light and He said, "Let there BE LIGHT." Light came into being because He spoke in faith, knowing that what He said would come to pass. It did not happen by chance. It did not happen because time passed and eventually, sooner or later, some molecules of nothingness bumped into one another and accidentally created light. He made the light, by faith. When Jesus told the woman with the issue of blood that her faith had made her whole, He was not joking. Her faith was the force behind the healing overtaking her body. She brought it to pass by her positive confession and stout belief in her God. (Matthew 9:19-22) When we reject the examples set before us in the Gospels, and deny the knowledge of how to put them to use and appropriate from God the things that we need, we reject Him. I don't believe that the teachings of any person or group of people ought to keep us from seeking sound medical attention.

    I believe that there are many miracles that so-called 'people of faith,' miss out on because they are not using common sense. Too many people, such as my poor deluded cousin I spoke about earlier, who died of a simple stomach tumor that was overlooked and became a huge masticized mess in her belly, because she was a Christian Science 'believer' who thought that she didn't need a doctor. Well, she will have to answer to God as to why she didn't avail herself of the many health-care opportunities that God provided for her healing. Her belief was based on repetition of poetry which makes far less sense (if you can believe this) than your poem in the first half of this very round. I know, because I used to recite them. I was raised Christian Science, and found NONE of God anywhere in that religion. I sought out God, found Him, and have dedicated my life to seeking more of Him.

    I also believe that many people, such as yourself, and me sometimes too, destroy the work of God in this earth when we attack the tenets of faith in others, simply because we do not understand or do not investigate whether or not they are operating on God's behalf. I know of one woman, who was my pastor for a good while, who was a very profound Prophettess, who married a catholic, who drank like a fish. She met him in a nightclub, years ago, when her girlfriends talked her into going out with them. She took one look at this 'lounge-lizard,' (her words, not mine) and saw everything she hated about this type of place. He was slick, well-dressed and half-lit. He flirted with her, and when she was about to reject him, the Holy Ghost spoke to her heart and said, "This is the man you are going to marry, and stay married to." She was flabbergasted, and told Him, "Never." He replied, "He is one of My Catholic Believers." She later married him, and was instructed to anoint his beer bottles with oil and lay hands on them and pray. Less than two weeks after she started doing this, he found that he could no longer get drunk and no longer had a taste for liquor. Today, he is a well-established pastor in his own right.

    Now, I am not saying that we need to accept the WOF movement or embrace heresy of any kind; but when the dogma of modern Christianity doesn't get the job we were sent here to do (evangelizing the world) we need to look for the Truth to be revealed and for the religious spirits to be exposed. The one that says, "Those WOF'ers, they are heretics," is the very one that we are against. Not against him personally, but against the religious spirit which dominated the Dark Ages, such that the Spirit of God was nearly snuffed out in the earth. Not that this can happen, but the Holy Spirit was limited the same way that Jesus was in His own home town, He could do only some few healings and that was all. Well, the Lord is saving the best wine (wine being a symbol of the Holy Spirit's anointing) for last. I believe we are in the last days, and that we are going to see an outpouring of the Spirit of the Lord which will more thoroughly fulfill the prophesy given by Joel than the original outpouring did. I believe in miracles and I don't believe they happen by themselves. The Lord moves on those who are close to Him, they respond in faith and step out in that faith and STAND on that faith. This is the type of people that God is looking for in these last days, people who will take Him at His Word, believe His Word, stand on His Word and defend His Word against all enemies, outside AND inside the Church, the Body of Christ.

    Sorry, I did not have room to respond to all of your points, but I feel that the basic tenets of faith in God and in His Christ and in the Holy Spirit were attacked, and I am His Ambassodor in this earth, and speak on His behalf. On behalf of the part of me that is human, and if you find any error in my post, I apologize, but we are not perfect, yet. When that which is perfect is come, then and only then, will prophecying cease. To God be the victory, glory, honor and power; in Heaven and in the earth. Let all things praise Him.

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    DING DING DING

    That's the end of round #5

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  8. #23
    Over 750 post club Brother Vinny's Avatar
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    famousGandalf7, you said:

    I will respond to the one thing which I feel is sacreligeous in your remarks...

    The confession of healing over one’s body, claiming health by divine right, is part-and-parcel of the Movement—I know of no Word-Faith teacher who doesn’t teach this.
    OK, now we're getting real. This is the faith stuff. Does the 'Word of Faith Movement,' as you are so fond of calling this group of preachers you have chosen to single out, teach heresy in regards to health and healing.
    Get real. I have not "chosen" to single the Word-Faith Movement out any less than you've "chosen" to defend them (or actually, not defend them, as the case has been for the bulk of this debate). You accepted the challenge of this Battle with the full knowledge that this is what we'd be discussing. In Round One, you presented Kenneth Hagin as "no better figurehead for this movement." You've wrenched Scripture out of its context to bolster the Movement's "little gods" doctrine in round three. You've agreed with me, in that same round, that the list I began this Battle with was heresy. Then, in Round Four, after having been shown that the heresies I listed came from Ken Hagin and Kenneth Copeland, you began to distance yourself from the remarks by claiming their obscurity and even denied the existence of the "Word-Faith Movement." (How can Hagin be "no better figurehead" for a movement that doesn't exist?) Now you're asking, "Does the 'Word of Faith Movement'. . . teach heresy in regards to faith and healing(?)"

    The answer is a resounding "YES!" Above and apart from the question of whether God is performing healings in our time (a topic I'll explore in a bit), there is an entitlement mentality in the movement not dissimilar to the prodigal son's attitude at the start of the parable ("I'll be having my inheritance now, please." Or sometimes, not even a "please"). "Divine health is my covenant right!," as Ken Hagin puts it. Such a mentality is insult to God, as He is not "entitled" to give us anything, but gives to us freely out of His love for us.

    Well, do you believe that God, in the Bible, called Himself Jehovah Rophe, meaning, "I Am the God that healeth thee?" (Exodus 15:26) I do. By the way, I don't believe that God operates on coincedence, and I believe that the word Rophe is placed in the middle of the word 'prophet' for a very profound reason. It is to let us know what the office of the prophet is designed for: HEALING.
    This is all fine and good. I believe there is room within Christianity for a genuine discussion between believers as to whether healing (and, for that matter, the office of prophet) is being granted in our time. There's room in Christianity for the Charismatics, who believe that God is quite definitely still healing today, and the Cessationalists, who believe that healings have passed. I myself fall somewhere in between. I don't deny that God can still heal today, and I believe that it's His prerogative to do so if He wishes. Having said that, I also believe that we are members of the Body of Christ, and as such have a special calling toward suffering (Rom 8:18; 2 Cor 1:5-7; Phi 3:10; Col 1:24). I believe the Body of Christ finds its example in the Apostle Paul, who enjoins us to imitate him as he imitates Christ (1 Cor 11:1). Paul warned early on that there would be a time when prophecies would fail (1 Cor 13:8; I believe the perfection which was to come was the Word of God Paul said he was to complete, Col 1:25), and by the end of his ministry, he left one friend sick (2 Ti 4:20) and prescribed wine for another friend's stomachache (1 Ti 5:23).

    There's no denial by me of God's covenant name (one of several signifying His covenant with Israel), Jehovah-Rophe. I even believe we in the Body of Christ will one day experience this healing (Rom 8:23). For now, though, I'm content to know I've been given every spiritual blessing (Eph 1:3). I do not necessarily expect every physical blessing in this life, and it shocks me to think anyone would consider themselves entitled to God's healing.

    Moving on. . . .

    My Bible also teaches me that I am to choose whom I serve. (Joshua 24:15)
    A hearty "Amen!" there.

    I am to keep in mind that I have the power of life and death in my tongue. (Proverbs 18:21)
    Ah, now we get somewhere; in fact, we get to one of the verses twisted out of context by the Word-Faith Movement to support its wacky teachings. All one has to remember to place this passage in its proper context is who wrote it, and to whom. King Solomon wrote it to his son; the present king of Israel to the future king. The king indeed has the power of life and death within his tongue; his command often decides whether a nation will go to war or remain at peace. There may be application for the believer in how he should speak to those within his sphere of influence, but there's no need to give this passage some sort of mystical meaning.

    The Lord Himself set the precedent we have for operating in faith and 'positive confession,' as you call it. (Genesis 1:3) I believe that He could have done what you think would have been right in that situation, when the darkness covered the face of the deep: He could have confessed the circumstances, by saying, "Wow. It sure is dark." But what good does that do? None. He spoke the solution. There never was light, there was no light and He said, "Let there BE LIGHT." Light came into being because He spoke in faith, knowing that what He said would come to pass. It did not happen by chance. It did not happen because time passed and eventually, sooner or later, some molecules of nothingness bumped into one another and accidentally created light. He made the light, by faith.
    We finally get to some core heresy, here, and also find that fG7 does indeed espouse it. How sad.

    Tell me, fG7, what "higher power" did God place His faith in? How can God be said to have faith at all? Faith is evidence of our humanity. We are incomplete, so we place our faith in something or someone who we think will make us complete. Most people place their faith in material things, or upon themselves. A few choose God (the right choice, as it happens). To say God has faith in anything is a denial of His character, His completeness unto Himself. God created the universe, and light soon after, not by faith but by His own power. The cause-and-effect realationship of God speaking and light becoming can hardly be called faith; God didn't create the light to overcome some sort of incompleteness within Himself, but to complete the universe. He knew it would come to pass because He said it; He didn't say it because He knew it would come to pass. Sure knowledge of one's own power is not faith.

    I think this is enough to condemn the Word-Faith Movement of antibiblical heresy. Webster's 1828 Dictionary defines faith as, "the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence." Who is this "another" that declared the truth unto God? I wish to meet him.

  9. #24
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    "Divine health is my covenant right!," as Ken Hagin puts it. Such a mentality is insult to God, as He is not "entitled" to give us anything, but gives to us freely out of His love for us.
    I believe that I have rights under this New and Better Covenant (than the Abrahamic Covenant). If you don't, that is up to you. We appropriate all of God that we have the faith for. The only limit God has in the life of a believer is their faith and the amount and type of prayer they attend to. If there was any thing else which limited Him, it was defeated at the cross. I have found out how to appropriate the things My Father has in store for me, such as the ability to know and walk in the plan He has for my life and to make available to His Body the ministry gifts He has chosen to bless my life with.
    I believe there is room within Christianity for a genuine discussion between believers as to whether healing (and, for that matter, the office of prophet) is being granted in our time. There's room in Christianity for the Charismatics, who believe that God is quite definitely still healing today, and the Cessationalists, who believe that healings have passed. I myself fall somewhere in between. I don't deny that God can still heal today, and I believe that it's His prerogative to do so if He wishes. Having said that, I also believe that we are members of the Body of Christ, and as such have a special calling toward suffering (Rom 8:18; 2 Cor 1:5-7; Phi 3:10; Col 1:24).
    If you truly believe that, then don't go to a doctor the next time you get sick, and don't even think about praying about it. But whatever you do, don't try to deny the Truth from Scripture, just because you don't believe the portions that someone else does.
    I believe the Body of Christ finds its example in the Apostle Paul, who enjoins us to imitate him as he imitates Christ (1 Cor 11:1). Paul warned early on that there would be a time when prophecies would fail (1 Cor 13:8; I believe the perfection which was to come was the Word of God Paul said he was to complete, Col 1:25), and by the end of his ministry, he left one friend sick (2 Ti 4:20) and prescribed wine for another friend's stomachache (1 Ti 5:23)
    I am not a 'Paulian,' or of Peter, James, John or any other. I am a Christian. If I see Paul following Christ in a way which is closer to Christ than I do, I'd better take heed. I am sure that he too was one to lay hands on the sick, and got to see them recover; but as far as following someone besides the Holy Spirit of Christ, I can not be turned. I am also sure that he would agree.
    There's no denial by me of God's covenant name (one of several signifying His covenant with Israel), Jehovah-Rophe. I even believe we in the Body of Christ will one day experience this healing (Rom 8:23). For now, though, I'm content to know I've been given every spiritual blessing (Eph 1:3). I do not necessarily expect every physical blessing in this life, and it shocks me to think anyone would consider themselves entitled to God's healing.
    It shocks me to think there is someone who calls himself Christian and doesn't believe that God is willing and able to heal ALL who call upon Him to do so. If you were able to do so for one of your earthly children, would you say, "No, you are better off suffering?" I don't think so. Your Heavenly Father is certainly a better role-model than you. Again, I choose to believe the Word, which you seem to have neglected the study of on this, one of the most important of subjects. How can you say that we have a New and Better Covenant with Him than Israel had, under Abraham? Their healing was provided for. The only thing one had to do when bitten by a snake when they were in the wilderness was to look up at the snake on a stick, which is what we (in charismatic circles) consider ourselves to be doing when we speak of our healing, we are looking to Jesus. The healing of His stripes belongs to us. If you don't believe that, then don't pray when you get sick.
    The king indeed has the power of life and death within his tongue; his command often decides whether a nation will go to war or remain at peace. There may be application for the believer in how he should speak to those within his sphere of influence, but there's no need to give this passage some sort of mystical meaning.
    I did not give any 'mystical' or spooky-spiritual meaning to the truth expressed here. We allow the devil to use our lips when we call someone a name or tell a lie. We also allow the Truth to be expressed by the same lips. How can we expect the fountain, which is corrupt to bring forth sweet waters, when we are so bitter on our insides? The power of the Scriptures is a mystery, and to those that perish it is foolishness. The Truth of a believer (or even a non-believer) giving license to the forces of good or evil in his life by allowing his mouth to express his faith (or lack of it) brings these things into this realm. When we take the authority that Jesus gave us over the devil and keep him in his place; which, by the way, is under our feet; and give expression to the Word of God over our lives, we can have the victory. It is not possible any other way. With the heart man believes and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. It is the same way with everything in our lives. The enemy has a field day with someone who does not corral him and break his power over their lives. If we focus on Satan and our problems and our circumstances and speak the truth about what we see, we are walking by sight and are no better off than someone who is lost. If we focus on Christ, pray for deliverance, and speak the solution, and believe that we have what we ask Him for, it will be done even as we have asked. Jesus said, "Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. -- Mark 11:24 Do you think that He was lying? Or did I take that out of context too?
    Tell me, fG7, what "higher power" did God place His faith in?
    Himself.
    How can God be said to have faith at all?
    He believes in you, and from over here, I believe that is a FAAAAAR stretch.
    To say God has faith in anything is a denial of His character, His completeness unto Himself.
    No, it shows that He is faithful and He displays this faith everyday. This is the highest expression of character, the ability to believe the promises of another, such as yourself.
    God created the universe, and light soon after, not by faith but by His own power.
    If there were no faith in His Words, the light never would have been. He is love, and that love has faith.[QUOTE]The cause-and-effect realationship of God speaking and light becoming can hardly be called faith; God didn't create the light to overcome some sort of incompleteness within Himself, but to complete the universe. He knew it would come to pass because He said it; He didn't say it because He knew it would come to pass. Sure knowledge of one's own power is not faith.[QUOTE]I did not say that He had no knowledge of His ability, but He displayed His faith by speaking. He could have just 'zapped' everything, with the amount of power He has, it would have been possible. He didn't. He chose to demonstrate for us the principles of faith, by speaking.
    I think this is enough to condemn the Word-Faith Movement of antibiblical heresy. Webster's 1828 Dictionary defines faith as, "the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence." Who is this "another" that declared the truth unto God? I wish to meet him.
    I don't think you have proved your case. I can't say that one person I have seen you present evidence on needs to be convicted of heresy. I see far more evidence that the Word-Faith Movement is Biblical than I do of any other denomination, group or single church. I have been to many, many different types of churches, all over this country, and have heard far more heretical statements in Catholic and Protestant mainline churches. As far as heretical teaching, I still think that there is no preponderance of evidence, no wide-ranging anti-Biblical or anti-Christ doctrine going on, in front of or behind the scenes. They just aren't agreeing and teaching huge Biblical error, as you seem to think that you have proven.

    I agree that there have been some indescrepancies by some men, who I have never considered to be perfect. I only know one Preacher who is Perfect.
    "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." -- Amos 3:7

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    ANY AND ALL POSTS ON THIS THREAD WILL BE DELETED UNLESS THEY ARE POSTED BY: Me (Knight), Becky, Paul DeYonghe or famousGandalf7. You may discuss Battle Royale V here.
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    Over 750 post club Brother Vinny's Avatar
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    Round Seven!

    fG7, you said,

    I believe that I have rights under this New and Better Covenant (than the Abrahamic Covenant). If you don't, that is up to you. We appropriate all of God that we have the faith for. The only limit God has in the life of a believer is their faith and the amount and type of prayer they attend to.
    I would be hard-pressed to call the blessings God has chosen to bestow as "rights" or "entitlements"; this language again hearkens back to the prodigal son. How can one say one is entitled to grace, for example?

    Also, you seem to neglect one limit God has in the life of the believer: that of His own desire. If He desires that the Body of Christ be called to suffering (as I've cited earlier) and for the divine healing of that Body to be concurrent with the redemption of the earth (as I've also cited earlier), then that is His prerogative.

    You said,

    If you truly believe that, then don't go to a doctor the next time you get sick, and don't even think about praying about it. But whatever you do, don't try to deny the Truth from Scripture, just because you don't believe the portions that someone else does.
    That doesn't follow. Just because we're denied divine physical healing (His grace is sufficient) doesn't mean that we can't fight sickness with natural means. Indeed, Paul enjoined Timothy to do so.

    You said,

    I am not a 'Paulian,' or of Peter, James, John or any other. I am a Christian. If I see Paul following Christ in a way which is closer to Christ than I do, I'd better take heed. I am sure that he too was one to lay hands on the sick, and got to see them recover; but as far as following someone besides the Holy Spirit of Christ, I can not be turned. I am also sure that he would agree.
    I have to question the holiness of a spirit that would lead one to embrace the doctrines of the Word-Faith Movement.

    Furthermore, I question any spirit that leads one to deny the Holy Spirit-inspired words of Paul. I'm not a "Paulian," either, but a member of the Body of Christ. One can not make a claim to be a member of the Body of Christ, however, without invoking Paul's legacy. Paul (through the Holy Spirit) referred to himself as "the apostle to the Gentiles" and magnified his office (Rom 11:13). The Holy Spirit tells the Body of Christ to be followers of Paul as He is of Christ (cited earlier), and that Paul is to be the pattern for those who would believe after him (1 Tim 1:16). If Paul was led by the Holy Spirit to place so much emphasis upon himself like this (and I believe he was), why do you de-emphasize his role?

    It shocks me to think there is someone who calls himself Christian and doesn't believe that God is willing and able to heal ALL who call upon Him to do so.
    Then be shocked. God is, of course, able to heal any who call upon Him. That leaves "willing." God discloses His will through the Bible, and His specific will for the Body of Christ through Paul's letters. If God sees wisdom in allowing members of the Body of Christ to suffer as the world suffers, so be it. Who are you to question God's will?

    If you were able to do so for one of your earthly children, would you say, "No, you are better off suffering?" I don't think so.
    This bears the subtle implication that I have God's wisdom and omniscience. I don't. And it may not be me who is "better off" for my suffering. It may be that my suffering, and the grace demonstrated through me by enduring said suffering, is instrumental in God's plan to save individuals who witness my suffering. Surely the salvation of a lost soul is more important than my physical needs.

    Your Heavenly Father is certainly a better role-model than you. Again, I choose to believe the Word, which you seem to have neglected the study of on this, one of the most important of subjects. How can you say that we have a New and Better Covenant with Him than Israel had, under Abraham?
    I can say that, in the Body of Christ, I am a minister of the new covenant according to the spirit (2 Cr 3:6), and because of this all spiritual blessings are mine (Eph 1:3). I can say our covenant is "new and better" because it isn't reliant upon circumcision or adherence to the law; that we're justified without any works (Rom 4:5). These points alone make it "new and better."

    The only thing one had to do when bitten by a snake when they were in the wilderness was to look up at the snake on a stick, which is what we (in charismatic circles) consider ourselves to be doing when we speak of our healing, we are looking to Jesus. The healing of His stripes belongs to us. If you don't believe that, then don't pray when you get sick.
    Other than a prayer for the Holy Spirit's comfort and grace to endure the situation, I don't. I know God's grace is sufficient for me. To ask for anything more when I know His calling for the Body is, quite frankly, an insult.

    As to the rest, it's hard to have a discussion, as we can't even seem to agree upon meanings of words. You say God had faith in Himself. I say that faith is so inherently tied to our weakness as humans that it is meaningless to speak of our all-powerful God as having faith. So, obviously, there are different definitions of faith at work.

    I don't believe God has faith in me, as you have implied. (I see a difference between mere belief and biblical faith, as we've discussed earlier; of course God believes I exist.) He may have hopes as to what I may become, which I'm sure are dashed time and again just as His hopes for Israel to produce fresh fruit were.

    No, it shows that He is faithful and He displays this faith everyday. This is the highest expression of character, the ability to believe the promises of another, such as yourself.
    I think it's quite a leap to imply from the adjective "faithful," as it applies to God, means that He has faith. More apt a definition would be "worthy of one's faith" or "trustworthy," as God surely is.

    If there were no faith in His Words, the light never would have been. He is love, and that love has faith.
    Again, I believe this stretches the word "faith" beyond its intended meaning. God's sure knowlegde of His own abilities and His intent should not be confused with faith. It's not faith for a person to believe the sun will come up in the east. This is a belief based upon empirical evidence; the sun has always come up in the east. This places this belief in the realm of sure knowledge. Faith comes into play in regard to things that are not empirically verified. Some people, for instance, believe in the existence of vampires. But it has never been shown that vampires, at least the supernatural kind, exist, so this would be faith.

    Now, I believe the Christian faith to be infitinitely more reasonable that a belief in the existence of vampires. I even have evidence through the witness of Scripture and through the Holy Spirit testifying with my own that I am His. But I can't call this empirical evidence because I can't force a nonbeliever to see the Scriptures as I see them, and I can't show him my "spiritual status." This qualifies my belief as faith.

    I did not say that He had no knowledge of His ability, but He displayed His faith by speaking. He could have just 'zapped' everything, with the amount of power He has, it would have been possible. He didn't. He chose to demonstrate for us the principles of faith, by speaking.
    Implying that God does anything by faith denies His sure knowledge of His ability, though, as I've shown above. And I believe He chose speaking as the method to create the universe not to demonstrate the principles of faith, but as a reminder of how infinitely more powerful He is than we are.

    I don't think you have proved your case. I can't say that one person I have seen you present evidence on needs to be convicted of heresy.
    So, are you now rescinding your earlier statements in regards to the list I'd started with?

    Even so, I've provided more than enough evidence to show the Movement to be antibiblical. Do you want more? Or would you treat it with the same disregard and contempt you've shown the evidence that's been presented so far?

    There's no convincing someone who will not be convinced.

    I see far more evidence that the Word-Faith Movement is Biblical than I do of any other denomination, group or single church.
    Of course you do. The church in the New Testament is replete with examples of being slain in the spirit, holy laughter, and preachers with designer suits and expensive chariots. And everyone in the Body of Christ received divine healing.

    But we at least agree that it is a Movement, now, right?

  13. #28
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    Re: Round Seven!

    Also, you seem to neglect one limit God has in the life of the believer: that of His own desire. If He desires that the Body of Christ be called to suffering (as I've cited earlier) and for the divine healing of that Body to be concurrent with the redemption of the earth (as I've also cited earlier), then that is His prerogative.
    If that were the case, I am sure that you would be able to give me several Scriptures which clearly show that suffering is His will for His Children. I believe that He wouold demonstrate otherwise. For instance, in Matthew 10:1: "And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease," you should note, He didn't say that there were some who did not deserve or need healing, or that need to suffer. We have a right to receive what the Lord has commanded we should have. Jesus bought and paid for our forgiveness, at the cross. We have eternal life when we believe in Him, as Lord and Savior. There were no such requirements given for healing. I don't ask someone the status of their salvation before I lay hands on them and pray for their healing, unless the Holy Spirit leads me to (He did once), I pray for anyone who requests prayer. Healing was given for anyone who is ill or injured.
    I have to question the holiness of a spirit that would lead one to embrace the doctrines of the Word-Faith Movement.
    If you were a partaker of this Spirit, you would not. He, alone, is Holy.
    Furthermore, I question any spirit that leads one to deny the Holy Spirit-inspired words of Paul. I'm not a "Paulian," either, but a member of the Body of Christ. One can not make a claim to be a member of the Body of Christ, however, without invoking Paul's legacy.
    I'm sorry, I missed the Scripture reference here... exactly which Scriptures (I need at least two, please) proclaim that we have to pray to Paul or bow to him or 'invoke Paul's legacy' to be saved. I am NOT a member of Paul. He is dead. Jesus is ALIVE. I believe in Him. I never said that Paul's writings were not a part of the New Testament. I believe that Paul was a great Apostle, even though He was not one of the original twelve.
    Paul (through the Holy Spirit) referred to himself as "the apostle to the Gentiles" and magnified his office (Rom 11:13). The Holy Spirit tells the Body of Christ to be followers of Paul as He is of Christ (cited earlier), and that Paul is to be the pattern for those who would believe after him (1 Tim 1:16). If Paul was led by the Holy Spirit to place so much emphasis upon himself like this (and I believe he was), why do you de-emphasize his role?
    I believe that by being filled with the Holy Spirit and praying continually, praying in tongues, more than just about anyone else I know, that I am following Paul's teachings. I am not de-emphasizing his role as an apostle. He is a man. I want to follow the Holy Spirit. That, my Bible tells me, is what I ought to be doing, if I expect to be called a son of God.
    God is, of course, able to heal any who call upon Him. That leaves "willing." God discloses His will through the Bible, and His specific will for the Body of Christ through Paul's letters. If God sees wisdom in allowing members of the Body of Christ to suffer as the world suffers, so be it. Who are you to question God's will?
    I don't question His Will, when He expresses it. Who are you to question what He has so clearly laid out in the Scriptures? Do you believe God makes injuries and sicknesses? As I said, next time you are hurt or sick, don't pray and don't go to a doctor. That would be foolishness. We see in the Bible that healing is made available, that God called Himself the 'God that healeth thee,' and gave the five-fold ministry to the church so that these things could be done; and yet you want to sit over in your 'religious' corner and put down someone because they believe they are filled with the Holy Spirit and that He told them to lay hands upon someone so that they could receive their healing, and then they do get healed, and you would say, "The devil must have done that?" Get real.
    I can say that, in the Body of Christ, I am a minister of the new covenant according to the spirit (2 Cr 3:6), and because of this all spiritual blessings are mine (Eph 1:3). I can say our covenant is "new and better" because it isn't reliant upon circumcision or adherence to the law; that we're justified without any works (Rom 4:5). These points alone make it "new and better."
    It seems you have set your sights way too low. You missed the healing boat, the Holy Spirit baptism boat and the gifts and ministries boat altogether. Those are some pretty good reasons to believe in this being the Best Possible Covenant available anywhere. I'd say it is fantastic, but you would probably tell me that is unscriptural and that I should hold still and be quiet while you preach your stumblingblocks to the blind you have gathered before you.
    Other than a prayer for the Holy Spirit's comfort and grace to endure the situation, I don't. I know God's grace is sufficient for me. To ask for anything more when I know His calling for the Body is, quite frankly, an insult.
    Sorry, I did not mean to insult you. I am, however going to continue to pray for the sick, and (with God doing the healing as He wills) I am also going to see them healed. "Personally, I couldn't heal a flea with a headache." Kenneth E. Hagin said that, many, many times. Jesus always gets the glory.
    I don't believe God has faith in me, as you have implied.
    You have started to turn me on this point, too.
    (I see a difference between mere belief and biblical faith, as we've discussed earlier; of course God believes I exist.) He may have hopes as to what I may become, which I'm sure are dashed time and again just as His hopes for Israel to produce fresh fruit were.
    He is never disappointed, only believing the best of all of us. We are to believe all things, as I am sure He does. No, that is not to say that God does not know when someone is lying, but He does have faith in us in ways that we need to learn from. This is an interesting Bible study; looking through the Bible for places where God expresses His faith in us. I have studied several subjects like this, and found more expressed in there than I ever suspected.
    Now, I believe the Christian faith to be infitinitely more reasonable that a belief in the existence of vampires. I even have evidence through the witness of Scripture and through the Holy Spirit testifying with my own that I am His. But I can't call this empirical evidence because I can't force a nonbeliever to see the Scriptures as I see them, and I can't show him my "spiritual status." This qualifies my belief as faith.
    Now you know how I feel trying to show someone on +OL that Holy Spirit baptism is real.
    Implying that God does anything by faith denies His sure knowledge of His ability, though, as I've shown above. And I believe He chose speaking as the method to create the universe not to demonstrate the principles of faith, but as a reminder of how infinitely more powerful He is than we are.
    No, if He wanted to do that, He would have made us first, so that we could watch... or maybe He would have made a video and shown us. NO, WRONG!!! He made everything there is for one reason, so we could tell one another about Jesus. If He wanted us to worship Him for His Power, He could have done some really big demonstrations when He walked the earth. He didn't. He wants us to come to Him because of His Love for us, and in doing so we prove our reverence for Him and for His Children, and then He is able to trust us with His Power. Neither does He give us power so that we can love Him. He loves us, and we respond in kind to that love, and then we are entrusted with His power.

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    DING DING DING

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    Over 750 post club Brother Vinny's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Round Eight!

    I’d like to start out by apologizing to readers, charismatic and non-charismatic alike, for allowing this discussion to venture from that which is essential (and, in the case of the Word-Faith Movement, essentially wrong) to matters which are open for debate. I refer, of course, to the debate over the role of physical miracles in the Body of Christ. I don’t apologize for what I believe in this matter; we tend to defend against heresy in light of the doctrines we believe, and I’m no different in that regard. Miracles are central to the Word-Faith Movement; they are the tools it uses to sheer its flock of burdensome lucre. Any discussion of the movement will therefore include a discussion of miracles. If famousGandalf7 (or anyone else, for that matter) wishes to discuss the existence of present-day physical miracles further, I’ll be open to debating it in open forum once this battle has concluded.

    fG7 said,

    If that were the case, I am sure that you would be able to give me several Scriptures which clearly show that suffering is His will for His Children.
    I have already cited several places where the Body of Christ is called to suffering. As a courtesy, I will quote them fully below:

    • And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. --Romans 5:3-5
    • Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. --Ephesians 3:13
    • And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. --2 Cor 12:9


    Then, you said:

    For instance, in Matthew 10:1: "And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease," you should note, He didn't say that there were some who did not deserve or need healing, or that need to suffer.

    Yes, I believe Jesus said this. Jesus was also on a mission to save Israel (Matt 15:24) and then the world through Israel (Zech 8:22-23, Acts 1:8). Close study of Scripture should show you that, at some point, God temporarily abandoned that plan to work through the Body of Christ, in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile. We know this because, among other reasons, God doesn’t require us to circumcise. Indeed, we are explicitly required not to circumcise for religious reasons (Gal 5:2-4 -- although we’re free to circumcise for social considerations, Acts 16:1-3). You won’t find any commands from Jesus’ earthly ministry to not circumcise; Jesus taught adherence to the Mosaic Law, both before and after His death and resurrection (Matt 5:19, 28:20). Ignorance of the disparity between God’s plan for Israel and His plan for the Body of Christ forms much of the foundation for your way of thinking. You find God’s command to not circumcise only in Paul’s writings, a gospel revealed directly to him by Jesus Christ (Gal 1:12).

    Healing was given for anyone who is ill or injured.
    Go see Joni Erickson Tada, then. See if she’ll let you pray for her. If she gets up from her wheelchair, I’ll eat my words.

    Your view, as presented here, doesn’t comport with the reality we see around us, even within the Movement you defend. People within the Movement have died while waiting for the Word-Faith God to fulfill his part of the “covenant.” Meanwhile, “miracles” are reserved for those whose diseases are largely psychosomatic to begin with, or for those whose diseases have a history of spontaneous remission. No blindness is cured, no limbs regrown, no paraplegics suddenly walking.

    Benny Hinn is perhaps the most well known Word-Faith “healer” on earth. This is in spite of the fact the people have been killed at his speaking engagements! Even putting this atrocious fact aside, what real good is any of Hinn’s “healing” really doing? The Christian Research Institute attempted to find out, and acquired from Hinn three testimonies of healing, with doctors’ records and documentation. Presumably, these are the cream of the crop; one would want to present the best evidence one has when one’s ministry is called into question. What did the CRI find? Case 1 was colon cancer. It was discovered that, in this specific instance, the cancer had been surgically removed. Case 2 was lupus, which is well-known to spontaneously remit in patients. The third case was a spinal tumor, which had begun shrinking three months prior to attending Hinn’s meeting, and was still present months after it had been allegedly healed.

    If you were a partaker of this Spirit, you would not. He, alone, is Holy.
    I am sure the spirit you follow attests to its own holiness while at the same time leads you to embrace a counterfeit gospel. I once partook of this same spirit. It took the patience and prayers of friends within mainline Christianity (my wife among them, for one) and the works of brilliant Christian thinkers like Hank Hanegraff (Christianity in Crisis), Dave Hunt (Occult Invasion), John MacArthur (Charismatic Chaos), and Walter Martin (The Agony of Deceit) to shed light for me upon the antibiblical practices of the Word-Faith movement.

    I'm sorry, I missed the Scripture reference here... exactly which Scriptures (I need at least two, please) proclaim that we have to pray to Paul or bow to him or 'invoke Paul's legacy' to be saved.
    You twist my words. This shouldn’t surprise me; one who has no qualms about following teachers that twist Scripture to fit their doctrines would have no trouble at all making my words mean what they did not intend. By “invoke Paul’s legacy,” I did not mean that we pray or bow to Paul. The Body of Christ was a special revelation to the Apostle Paul, a mystery never before revealed (Rom 16:25-26; Eph 3:4-6; Col 1:26-27). Every time we claim to be members of Christ’s Body, we pay respect to this mystery. This mystery isn’t so much “Paul’s legacy”—an unfortunate choice of words in retrospect—but God’s legacy through Paul.

    I believe that Paul was a great Apostle, even though He was not one of the original twelve.
    You got that right, although I bet you never gave much thought as to why God called an Apostle apart from the Twelve. I’ll give you a hint. Twelve is a number indicative of Israel: twelve tribes, twelve prophets, twelve-times-twelve hours (144 hours, or six days) in which Israel was allowed to work, and so on. One is indicative of the Body of Christ: one Lord, one faith, one baptism, etc. (see Ephesians 4:4-6).

    I don't question His Will, when He expresses it. Who are you to question what He has so clearly laid out in the Scriptures?
    He has clearly expressed a call to suffering for the Body of Christ (as evidenced in the Scriptures I quoted above) and has given us His promise that our bodies would be redeemed in the future (Romans 8:23). Your question is thus turned back upon you: Who are you, fG7, to question what God has so clearly laid out in the Scriptures?

    Do you believe God makes injuries and sicknesses?
    “Makes” as in “creates?” No. He can cause these things to happen, though, and often uses them to achieve His purposes. For example, He can use a “messenger of Satan” as a “thorn in [Paul’s] flesh,” to keep the apostle from getting puffed up about the revelations he’d received (2 Cor 12:7).

    As I said, next time you are hurt or sick, don't pray and don't go to a doctor. That would be foolishness.
    We’ve already discussed this. I pray, not for healing, but for comfort. And I go to the doctor because seeking natural help for ailments is encouraged in this dispensation.

    We see in the Bible that healing is made available
    Where then is Paul’s healing (2 Cor 12:7-9)? Where then is Timothy’s healing for his stomach (1 Tim 5:23)? Where is the healing for Paul’s sick friend in Miletum (2 Tim 4:20)? If so much healing is available, why aren’t these godly men healed?

    yet you want to sit over in your 'religious' corner and put down someone because they believe they are filled with the Holy Spirit and that He told them to lay hands upon someone so that they could receive their healing, and then they do get healed, and you would say, "The devil must have done that?" Get real.
    I don’t attribute any healings to the devil; I don’t even see any true healings performed. What I see are hoaxes being perpetrated, and I chalk those up to wicked (or foolish) men preying upon the gullibility of people in desperate need.

    It seems you have set your sights way too low. You missed the healing boat, the Holy Spirit baptism boat and the gifts and ministries boat altogether. Those are some pretty good reasons to believe in this being the Best Possible Covenant available anywhere. I'd say it is fantastic, but you would probably tell me that is unscriptural and that I should hold still and be quiet while you preach your stumblingblocks to the blind you have gathered before you.
    I don’t feel I’ve missed any “boat.” I once boarded the “miracles-on-demand” luxury cruise liner, then abandoned ship when I realized it was sinking beneath the weight of unfulfilled promises in the lives of those I observed on board. If you wish to stay on board, that is your concern. It’s only fair to inform you that your empty claims and insults regarding the “blind I have gathered before [me]” are tantamount to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

    Sorry, I did not mean to insult you.
    The insult I referred to was not toward me, but toward God. I imagine following in a Movement that regularly insults God has left you somewhat callous to the grief such insults cause the Holy Spirit, so your confusion is to be expected. It is an insult to God to expect supernatural healing when one is called to suffering.

    "Personally, I couldn't heal a flea with a headache." Kenneth E. Hagin said that, many, many times. Jesus always gets the glory.
    I guess it depends on what day you ask Dad Hagin. He has also had at least one instance where “God” told him that he (“God”) was unable to do anything without Hagin’s intervention. Go figure.

    You have started to turn me on this point, too.
    Ooh! Another zinger! You’re getting good at this—insulting rather than answering valid points, that is.

    He is never disappointed, only believing the best of all of us.
    fG7, you’ve really stepped in it this time. You don’t think God is ever disappointed with us? Allow me to quote for you just a few times where God has expressed disappointment with us humans:

    • And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. --Gen 6:6-7
    • And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard. What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? --Isa 5:3-4
    • O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! --Matt 23:36


    We are to believe all things, as I am sure He does.

    Since God “believes all things,” does God then believe that both of us are correct in what we believe on this issue? The passage regarding love in 1 Corinthians 13 can be taken too far. It describes a “more excellent way” (see v. 12:31), a path to be followed by us and sought more earnestly than spiritual gifts. God doesn’t need to seek this path; He is the path. This should not be taken as license to ascribe to an all-powerful God an attribute characteristic of human weakness.

    (It should also be noted from this passage, “love seeks not its own.” Quite a difference, I’d say, from “demanding one’s covenant rights” and “name it and claim it.” Wouldn’t you agree, fG7?)

    No, that is not to say that God does not know when someone is lying, but He does have faith in us in ways that we need to learn from. This is an interesting Bible study; looking through the Bible for places where God expresses His faith in us. I have studied several subjects like this, and found more expressed in there than I ever suspected.

    I’d very much like to see this “Bible study.”

    No, if He wanted to do that, He would have made us first, so that we could watch... or maybe He would have made a video and shown us. NO, WRONG!!! He made everything there is for one reason, so we could tell one another about Jesus. If He wanted us to worship Him for His Power, He could have done some really big demonstrations when He walked the earth. He didn't. He wants us to come to Him because of His Love for us, and in doing so we prove our reverence for Him and for His Children, and then He is able to trust us with His Power. Neither does He give us power so that we can love Him. He loves us, and we respond in kind to that love, and then we are entrusted with His power.

    You confuse the issue, and I’m not sure it is by accident (although I’m willing to believe it is ). God’s words are a grand demonstration of His power. His words do not return to him void (Isa 55:11); man’s often do. Now, maybe God’s plan for Israel included signs and wonders, including imbuing man’s words with His power (one possible interpretation of Mark 11:23). But the body of Christ isn’t Israel, and we are to make our requests known to God (Phil 4:6), the result of which being not that the request is necessarily granted, but that we receive the peace of God that passes all understanding.

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