Hall of Fame inductees ~12-20-2003

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by Shimei
I know that Jesus is the only way and that He can save us and forgive us for our sins. But we all have a choice in the matter. We are not forced to love and choose God. Forced love is not love.
If we all have a choice in the matter, than those who choose Christ have bragging rights over those who reject.

And being saved by God is not forced love. He doesn't force anyone to serve Him, for when He saves a person, they gladly serve and worship Him with all their heart! Being saved is a wonderful thing, and those who are blessed to receive God's mercies and grace devote their lives to Him forever.
 

Servo

Formerly Shimei!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by Z Man
If we all have a choice in the matter, than those who choose Christ have bragging rights over those who reject.

And being saved by God is not forced love. He doesn't force anyone to serve Him, for when He saves a person, they gladly serve and worship Him with all their heart! Being saved is a wonderful thing, and those who are blessed to receive God's mercies and grace devote their lives to Him forever.

Is there a way for a Calvinist to not contradict themselves?

God doesn’t force anyone to serve Him, but we have no choice in the matter because God chooses some of us to serve Him.
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by Shimei
Is there a way for a Calvinist to not contradict themselves?

God doesn’t force anyone to serve Him, but we have no choice in the matter because God chooses some of us to serve Him.
There is no contridiction in what I've said. You've simply misquoted me, that's all.

Your choice of words are naive in understanding the grace of God. God doesn't force anyone to serve Him. He merely opens their eyes to the Truth, and they gladly follow. No man has a choice in the matter because no man desires salvation of thier own will. They want sin and only sin. Every man is born hating God. Our minds are carnal and we cannot please God. For us to willingly choose Christ, He must free our will from the bondage of sin. Then, and only then, can man choose Christ. And no one whom God saves will ever reject Him. Charles Spurgeon said it best:

No sooner is the soul quickened than it at once discovers its lost estate; its horrified threat! It looks for a refuge, and believing Christ to be a suitable one, flees to Him and reposes in Him.
 

Mateo

New member
B.B. suggested:

"let's close the churches and fire the Pastors."

Mateo's thinkin':

B.B. for President. If we can ditch these guys (and with the recent advent of P.C. culture, gals) everyone would then be forced to read God's word for themselves if they wanted to know what He said.

P.S. I nominate most everything Kronus, Behira, and Big Finn have posted.
 
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CryTears

BANNED
Banned
I don't think we are all born bad or wanting sin. I wasn't :D
no we are capable of sin.
I think we have free will.
I believe in some predistination.
God says he knows even the number of the hair on our head.

This confuses me because one time I read scripture I think, well why bother with anything everything is predestined.
The next time I read it I think God blesses some people to see things and know things that others do not know. He does this for a reason.
Then sometimes I think of it as a parent/child. We can predict what the child will do or what will happen. Such as a child keeps riding their bike in the street we tell them 'if you keep that up you will be ran over some day." One day the child is run over.
So God has figured out the traps of human beings and warned us and if we continue on with that behavior then expect the consequences He stated.
I get the message from scripture that some people are given the gift of right and wrong however it is applied in their life, then when they knowingly go against God they will be judged harsher than when they did not know.
I think there are bad seeds born and children of Satan on earth.
They thrive on evil.
One scripture I read gave me the impression that one can see a child from early on and recognize the child as evil.
 

Servo

Formerly Shimei!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by Z Man
There is no contridiction in what I've said. You've simply misquoted me, that's all.

Your choice of words are naive in understanding the grace of God. God doesn't force anyone to serve Him. He merely opens their eyes to the Truth, and they gladly follow. No man has a choice in the matter because no man desires salvation of thier own will. They want sin and only sin. Every man is born hating God. Our minds are carnal and we cannot please God. For us to willingly choose Christ, He must free our will from the bondage of sin. Then, and only then, can man choose Christ. And no one whom God saves will ever reject Him. Charles Spurgeon said it best:

No sooner is the soul quickened than it at once discovers its lost estate; its horrified threat! It looks for a refuge, and believing Christ to be a suitable one, flees to Him and reposes in Him.

But can you still admit that God chooses some and rejects others? It is all predestined, correct?

Are you going to say it is mans fault that God rejects them? How can it be a certain man's fault if that man rejects God but he does so because God predestined it to be so?
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by Shimei
But can you still admit that God chooses some and rejects others? It is all predestined, correct?

Are you going to say it is mans fault that God rejects them? How can it be a certain man's fault if that man rejects God but he does so because God predestined it to be so?
It is man's fault for his own damnation! No one is innocent! Everybody on this planet deserves to go to hell! It's not that God predestines people to hell, but rather predestines people to salvation. Those whom He has not chosen simply receive what we all should receive!

Those who are saved by the grace of God are blessed with an amazing gift! Knowing this humbles me more greatly than any other knowledge or experience that I have obtained. All I can do is be amazed and thank God continually for His saving grace and mercies upon me. Who am I that God is mindful of me? I've done nothing different from anyone else, yet God loved me anyways and it pleases Him to save me. It blows my mind...
 

Sozo

New member
Originally posted by Z Man

Why is it everytime that I post on a thread, no matter what the subject is, somebody always wants to debate with me about predestination? What gives? Aren't there other "calvinists" you guys can pester?

God has chosen us to pester you!
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by Z Man
It is man's fault for his own damnation! No one is innocent! Everybody on this planet deserves to go to hell! It's not that God predestines people to hell, but rather predestines people to salvation. Those whom He has not chosen simply receive what we all should receive!
I laugh every time I read that.

Certainly you are smart enough to figure out what your own words mean... right?

If God only predestines SOME to salvation then any of the "others" who are NOT predestined to salvation are indeed predestined to damnation. You cannot have your cake and eat it to.
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by Sozo
God has chosen us to pester you!
In that case, I am grateful and humbled that God has found favor in me to instruct you all in the path of righteousness.

:chuckle:
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by Knight
I laugh every time I read that.

Certainly you are smart enough to figure out what your own words mean... right?

If God only predestines SOME to salvation then any of the "others" who are NOT predestined to salvation are indeed predestined to damnation. You cannot have your cake and eat it to.
Either way, no man goes to hell innocent.
 

Servo

Formerly Shimei!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by Z Man
In that case, I am grateful and humbled that God has found favor in me to instruct you all in the path of righteousness.

:chuckle:

How can you be grateful and humbled? You had nothing to do with it if God already predestined it.

Are you saying you are happy that God set up a plan for you to feel grateful and humbled because God made you post some posts on TOL and God made all of us read your predestined posts and God predestined us to think and respond a certain way as to make you feel grateful and humbled?

God also predestined me to believe in free will and post this response. Now I feel grateful and SORT OF humble! AHHH!!!!!

Why is God doing (already did) this????

God will now (I mean already did) make Z-man respond with a few sentences that contradict each other. Or will HE???? :shocked:
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by Shimei
How can you be grateful and humbled? You had nothing to do with it if God already predestined it.

Are you saying you are happy that God set up a plan for you to feel grateful and humbled because God made you post some posts on TOL and God made all of us read your predestined posts and God predestined us to think and respond a certain way as to make you feel grateful and humbled?

God also predestined me to believe in free will and post this response. Now I feel grateful and SORT OF humble! AHHH!!!!!

Why is God doing (already did) this????

God will now (I mean already did) make Z-man respond with a few sentences that contradict each other. Or will HE???? :shocked:
LOL! Chill out dude, it was just a joke! :chuckle:
 

Bob Enyart

Deceased
Staff member
Administrator
Contrast

Contrast

Hey Z Man, we both posted follow ups to your original chiding of Knight: "BTW, I hope you're not as biased in picking out these threads as you are with the POTD. It seems that I can't achieve the great POTD title because I believe in predestination. Is that true mister? "

Let’s contrast our two posts. Mine is true from YOUR perspective, whereas your rebuttal is true only if YOUR perspective is true, which of course is what we were sparring about.

I wrote to you that:
If predestination is true, then you're complaining to the wrong administrator.
If predestination is not true, then your complaining is wrong.
Any questions?

You wrote back to me:
If freewill is right, then you don't need Christ.
If freewill is wrong, then of course you're wrong.

If you want to take a second shot at a pity response to my couplet, I’d enjoy reading it. To clarify my point, I live and think consistently with free will, while I see you and many Calvinists living in continual dissonance with your theology. Thanks, -Bob Enyart
 

Z Man

New member
Re: Contrast

Re: Contrast

Originally posted by Bob Enyart
If you want to take a second shot at a pity response to my couplet, I’d enjoy reading it. To clarify my point, I live and think consistently with free will, while I see you and many Calvinists living in continual dissonance with your theology. Thanks, -Bob Enyart
I don't think this is the right place to debate about predestination. If you'd like to start a thread somewhere else, I'd be more than happy to chat with you there.

BTW, you're not some kind of superhuman who can make choices apart from their nature. You're no better than the rest of mankind. Some people will not give in to Christ. Their problem is the same exact problem that plagues all of mankind; the enslavement of sin. You would have never believed in Christ had He not bestowed His grace upon you and opened your heart and mind to His calling.

You didn't choose Christ, He choose you.
 

Bob Enyart

Deceased
Staff member
Administrator
Z Man just wrote: I don't think this is the right place to debate about predestination...
... You didn't choose Christ, He choose you.

Hey Z Man, think about all those times when you didn't think of just the right thing to say, until it was too late. As soon as the perfect moment had passed, just after you hung up the phone, or had left the meeting, or had moved on to the next point, or were driving home, only then did you think of just the right thing to say.

What's up with that? Do you think that's God just playing with your head? Always predestining that you'd have just the right response, but just a minute too late? Timing's everything you know. Do you think it was God who had you write that we shouldn't debate predestination in this thread, and then move you irresistibly to go ahead and debate it anyway, and that, while avoiding my question? What's up with that? What do you Calvinists call it, Irresistible Disgrace?

In that intimate Last Supper talk with His disciples, Jesus was encouraging them to press on after His absence. And He heartened them reminding each one that Jesus had personally selected them. “Peter, follow Me.” “Andrew, Bartholomew, follow Me.” “You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you.” That was the meaning of Christ’s words. Of course, you can twist them to turn Him into a Creator who created millions of people to torment them in Hell with no possible way out.

Perhaps we can both agree that in the afterlife, there will be sorrow for those who attribute to God the wickedness that He despises.

Sincerely, -Bob Enyart
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by Bob Enyart
In that intimate Last Supper talk with His disciples, Jesus was encouraging them to press on after His absence. And He heartened them reminding each one that Jesus had personally selected them. “Peter, follow Me.” “Andrew, Bartholomew, follow Me.” “You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you.” That was the meaning of Christ’s words. Of course, you can twist them to turn Him into a Creator who created millions of people to torment them in Hell with no possible way out.
Far be it from God to destroy what He creates! I mean, who does He think He is? He has no right to predestine people to hell!

:rolleyes:

Matt 20:15
"Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me?"

Psalm 115:3
Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing; and He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, "What are you doing?"

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.'
 

Poly

Blessed beyond measure
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by Z Man
Far be it from God to destroy what He creates! I mean, who does He think He is? He has no right to predestine people to hell!

:rolleyes:
Do you hear yourself? You are saying God created something for the sole purpose of destroying it.
So God creates man, predestines that man to be evil, and decides to punish man for the evil He predestined for Man. Unless He just gets a warped kick out of it, why couldn't He have just saved himself the trouble and not made man at all? Better yet, if He truly hates sin, just as He says He does, and felt the need to pre-program man, why not program them to do all good?
 
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