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Thread: Word-Faith Movement: heretical? - Battle Royale V - Paul DeYonghe vs. famousGandalf7

  1. #31
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    To the Shepherds of the Flock

    I have somewhat to say unto the shepherds of the flocks. The shepherds of the flocks have been biting and devouring one another! Not only devouring the sheep, but devouring one another through criticism and horrible, terrible acts, that I consider as sin, saith the Lord.
    I will not tolerate this sin any longer in the body of Christ. It will not be tolerated. It will not be tolerated. It will not be tolerated. It will be stopped, either by your voluntary repentance, and I will count it as a cleansing and I will count it as done and it will no longer be brought up to you anymore, or I will put a stop to it, saith the Chief Shepherd. And if I have to stop you, you will have rather had it done some other way. But it will stop among the shepherds of the flock, saith the Lord.
    There are those in these latter days that hae been critical of the moving of the Spirit, that have been harsh on My lambs, have been harsh on My people, have been harsh with one another, and have committed and are still committing sins that must stop, saith God. Now is the time. Judgement begins with the house of God, and it is time for these things to be put away. There are those that will refuse to walk in holiness, and there are those that will refuse to stop criticizing, and there are those that will refuse their churches to the sinners in the street as they come flowing into your congregations. I will remove your candle from its place in your life and in your surroundings, and things that I will not bring up now, but I warn you, saith the Spirit of Grace, the end has come, and it is the end of My patience with sin. It is the end of My holding Myself back, for it is the time of My manifestation in My fullness, and I shall act as a mighty warrior. I shall go through the land, and My enemies shall be slain before Me.
    This that stand up against My move and try to stop what I'm doing in the earth, and those that stand up and say, "No, no, no, no, this is not of us, this is not what we want, no, no, no, no, we don't want those sinners in our church, no, we don't want your kind," I will destroy your sheepfold and I'll scatter your flock and I'll take them to the sheepfold where they'll be fed and led into green pastures and beside still, peaceful waters.
    I will not tolerate the storms of sin and doubt and unbelief among My people any longer! For these are the days that all the body of Christ has been praying and waiting for. It will not be spoiled and ruined by foolish and unlearned religious fools, for these are the days of the outpouring of the former and the latter rain. You cannot stand and resist the flood, because the flood will crush you trying to resist it.
    You can't just be passive and ride the fence. It will sweep away your fence and all that your thought was secure. But all those that will ride this flood of spiritual power, we shall together ridt the crest of it, saith the Chief Shepherd, until we reach high ground.



    Do not become discouraged because the truth does not dawn on your spirits all at once, but keep meditating on the facts of the Word. The more you meditate on the facts of that which is written, and the more you meditate on that which is said as one shall speak under the anointing and the inspiriation of the Spirit, then, little by little, it will become real to you. And as on the inside of you, in your spirit, in your inner man, it takes shape and form, it will reshape your own spirit, until you'll no longer be a weakling, spiritually, but you shall become strong, and be able to stand, and do the works the Lord has called you unto, and rule and reign and dominate in life, as a king by Jesus Christ. So do not turn away even because you do not fully understand or see. But let your mind be open and your spirit be receptive and say thou, "O blessed Holy Spirit, unveil the truth unto my spirit, that I may stand in the fullness of the provision of my Father, for He is my Father. I love Him and He loves me." And so you will become that which He has ordained that you should become, and rise up to the level of the full privileges, and rights and authority, and dominion of a son of God. Rejoice and be glad, and speak forth the word of faith. Speak unto those circumstances that have you bound, and command them to leave, and so you shall be loosed. Speak unto the storm that appears on the horizon of your life, and say, "Peace, be still," and there will be calm. Learn what is yours, and act upon it, and it shall become yours in reality.

  2. #32
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
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    DING DING DING

    That is the end of round 8.

    Only two posts each left!

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  3. #33
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    ANY AND ALL POSTS ON THIS THREAD WILL BE DELETED UNLESS THEY ARE POSTED BY: Me (Knight), Becky, Paul DeYonghe or famousGandalf7. You may discuss Battle Royale V here.
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  4. #34
    Over 500 post club Brother Vinny's Avatar
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    Round Nine

    Friends and Neighbors,

    What we have witnessed from my opponent is, in the realm of apologetics, tantamount to seeing someone continue to swing wildly after having his nose broken and landing no punches. famousGandalf7, in lieu of having Scriptural truth with which to attack my position, has proceeded to put words into the mouth of God Almighty. I pity him, so much so that I have asked the referee to call this match out of mercy for my opponent. Such request was declined. Hesitant as I am to kick somebody when they're already down and bleeding profusely, I have been enjoined to remain strong and see this battle to its end.

    fG7's wild swings have been aimed at "the Shepherds of the Flock." I am no shepherd. I do not even raise myself to the lofty position of a "sheepdog." I am merely one of the sheep, trying to discern the straw from the sticks of Christian doctrine. Somehow, poisonous plants have been added to this hodgepodge, and if I stumble upon them, I do feel it my duty to bleat loudly to my fellow sheep about the dangerous growths in our pasture. This is precisely what I have done in regards to the Word-Faith Movement in this battle.

    fG7 speaks, in his post, of the harshness of those (including myself, presumably) who levy criticism on other "shepherds." He seems to have forgotten Jesus' treatment of the scribes and Pharisees, criticized for hypocrisy because they did not adhere to themselves a Law they so adamantly enjoined others to follow. He also seems to have forgotten Jesus treatment of the moneychangers in the Temple, who felt His scourge on their backsides for making His Father's house into a den of thieves. fG7 also seems to have forgotten Paul's displeasure with the Judaizers; the Apostle's anger at those who would pervert the gospel of grace was so great that he wished that they were cut off. Harshness has its place in evangelism, especially in regard to false doctrines. And while I've been harsh, I've tried my best not to be excessively harsh.

    fG7 also speaks much about "devouring." Although he probably thinks otherwise, I do not wish to devour him, nor anyone else within the Word-Faith Movement. My earnest wish is that he, along with everyone else within the Movement who is within my sphere of influence, is converted to my way of thinking (or, failing that, is at least convinced that the Word-Faith Movement is antibiblical and leaves it). My call is not one to destruction, but to repentance. I do not wish to see Hagin, Copeland, Hinn, Crouch, or any other Faith preacher destroyed. If I could witness to them one-on-one, I'd certainly welcome the opportunity. Alas, the siren song of Rolls-Royces, Rolexes, Armani suits, and expensive homes may be too loud for my tiny voice to be heard. Rather than lament this fact of life, I do what I can with the influence I have.

    fG7 presumes to speak quite a bit for God. One has to wonder if he knows the dangers inherent in such an act. False prophecy is not exactly smiled upon in the Bible-- indeed, it is punishable by death! So when I hear fG7 say, "I [God] will not tolerate this sin any longer in the body of Christ," I feel inclined to challenge such a prophecy. If I continue to criticize as I have done, and God indeed tolerates my continuance, is this then proof that fG7 has uttered false prophecy? If so, is fG7 then willing to take upon himself the criminal penalty for uttering false prophecy?

    At the expense of perhaps fulfilling another portion of fG7’s “prophecy,” I intend to continue to criticize the leaders of the Word-Faith Movement for their heretical teachings. I am commanded to reprove the unfruitful works of darkness (Eph 5:11). I shall continue to do so even should I find them being performed among those who profess the name of Christ. I expect a God intolerant of such will take supernatural measures to see to it that I stop, just like He stopped Walter Martin by killing him (as Kenneth Hagin has implied).

    As for the rest of fG7's post, much of it is either redundant ("It will not be tolerated. It will not be tolerated. It will not be tolerated.") or non-applicable to our discussion (what's all this business about barring sinners from church?). fG7's argument has become the car wreck which one does not want to look at, but from which we cannot tear our fascinated gaze. I should feel vindicated, and I do, but not without a great deal of sadness. Sadness in part because it's never fun to see one destroy oneself against biblical truth; sadness in part because it is almost impossible for someone so entrenched in error to come to repentance. It may at this point be a futile gesture; nonetheless, I will be praying that repentance comes to famousGandalf7's house, and soon.

    Your Humble Servant,

    Paul DeYonghe

  5. #35
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    Words that Speak Faith

    I found the first quote in my previous post in Kenneth E. Hagin's book, "Zoe, The God-Kind of Life," copyright 1981. It was the foreward to the book, and was a word of prophecy given under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, by Kenneth E. Hagin, 19OCT80, Rhema Bible Church, Tulsa, Oklahoma. The second quote was from a word of prophecy given by Kenneth Copeland, during the 1983 Believer's convention, in Aneheim, California.

    "The Lord is now preparing a leadership that will be willing to fight a spiritual civil war in order to set men free. The main issue will be slavery versus freedom. The secondary issue, which will be the primary issue for some, will be money. Just as the American Civil War at times looked like it would destroy the entire nation, what is coming upon the church will at times appear as if it will be the end of the church. However, just as the American nation not only survived, but went on to become the most powerful nation on earth, the same is going to happen to the church. The church will not be destroyed, but the institutions and doctrines that have kept men in spiritual slavery will be." -- Rick Joyner, "The Final Quest."

    I believe that the proof of these things coming to pass are demonstrated by the gross spiritual darkness masquarading as light on this and other similar forums. We need to recognize the enemy. I don't mean one another. I mean we need to discern the spirit behind the ones who speak lies with hypocricy, and profess Jesus as proof of their piety. We need to expose these demons, and expel them from our midst. If we don't, we partake of their spirit and it doesn't just want to go along for a ride, sooner or later it is going to want to drive. That is why I can no longer read or respond to ANY posts at +OL. It is not because I am not a free-thinker, or because I am in bondage. It is because I have been set free from bondage, and when it tries to overtake me again, I can discern the enemy and will not partake of it. There is no fear, for I am still a man who loves and prays for every soul I ever encountered here. There is, however, a stark refusal to sup with demons.

    I believe that if there were proper prayer leadership and intercessory prayer covering for this forum, that God would be glorified and that His Body would be edified, instead of being ripped to pieces by those who profess love for Jesus, and rip Him apart in the same breath. I also believe that it is never too late to pray and seek God. Even now, if you repent and turn to Him, He will in no wise cast you out. Whosoever will may come to Him. I will. That is why I must go. No one has offended me. I have been called a lot worse by a lot better people. I expect treatment such as I have received here from the world, but to receive it at the hands of someone calling themselves 'Christian,' is often a deeper wound. Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but I have not received many faithful wounds here.

    I pray that my words have exposed the deception of the enemy, operating through 'religious' people as well as many secular debaters. The Lord has called me out of this mudpit, and I must obey. I pray for your faith and love, and encourage your growth in the Lord. Seek Him in spirit and in truth. He is Love, His Word is alive, and He speaks to each and every one of us every day, we just rarely take the time to listen for His still, small voice. When we ignore that voice long enough, He will have to perhaps speak a little (one day maybe a LOT) louder. I pray that you hear from Him before He has to repeat Himself.
    "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." -- Amos 3:7

  6. #36
    Over 500 post club Brother Vinny's Avatar
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    Round Ten -- FINAL ROUND!

    I would first of all like to thank famousGandalf7 for what has been an exhausting and interesting debate. I wish I could add that he was a worthy opponent; I truly expected a more intellectual, Bible-based approach from him, and was sorely disappointed.

    Now, famousGandalf7 said something of merit in Round Nine: there is spiritual darkness masquerading as light here on TOL; indeed, in this very battle. "Ye shall know them by their fruits," the Lord Jesus said. Some of the fruits of this present darkness are the elevation of man to deity, the demotion of God, the demand of one's own covenant rights, the twisting of words to mean what they didn't intend to say, the willful ignorance of Scripture to support one's pet doctrines, and the preference over Scripture of the words of man. One need only to glance back at this battle to see these fruits on display.

    Maybe the Body of Christ is headed for a civil war. If so, then the Word-Faith Secessionists are destined to lose. Nothing in Scripture warrants the unholy wedding of Christian doctrine to New Thought metaphysics, as the Word-Faith Movement has done. Such a syncretism will always lose to the pure faith.

    I doubt such a civil war is imminent, though. I have witnessed (praise God!) a growing number of refugees from the Movement. Some of these have found charismatic churches which are more mainstream. Others have found a home in non-charismatic Bible-believing churches. Some have left religion altogether, embittered by seeing their hopes repeatedly shipwrecked on the rocks of reality. I am even grateful for these, as possessing no gospel is better than possessing a counterfeit. Perhaps one day these will be open to the true gospel; I've seen no such receptivity on the part of those entrenched in the Movement.

    It is with sadness that I bid farewell to this "little god" I've wrestled with. I'd believed the best about him from the beginning, accepted him as a fellow believer until I had concrete proof otherwise. Now that he has borne his fruit for all to see, and has not accepted my Scriptural rebuke, I shake my feet of his dust (Mat 10:14).

    I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:
    --2 Timothy 4:7

  7. #37
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    Goodbye, and Thanks for all the Fish

    Heap to yourselves teachers, and they will scratch your ears just the way you like. Then you will be a complete fool, having fooled yourselves into believing that God is yours to command. He that presumes to speak for God, when God has not instructed him to do so speaks his own damnation, even if he is accepted by all the world and told what a great work he has done for God. Those who believe they do God's service and have no idea of Who God is or what He wants them to do are many, and yet they will say, "I follow the written Word of God," all day long. When God speaks, in these latter days, it is to His people who are able to hear His Voice, not those who hide from Him under their 'knowledge' of His Word. When we have the inward witness of the Holy Spirit that someone ought to be heeded, we should listen to them. When we don't, we should get out from under their teaching, lest we become ensnared in their deciet, and end up calling it, "Gospel."

    I believe that admitting that what someone has said represents heresy is by no means an admission that all of their ministry needs to be discarded. I also believe that many more people than just I can recognize heresy in someone's preaching, simply by virtue of being a common-sense Christian. I just don't see the Word-Faith movement being heretical or teaching false doctrine at all. Most of the statements cited here have seldom been repeated and often been retracted. I don't think there is a perfect church for Jesus to come back for, yet. I believe there will be, one day; and believe that should be one of our goals. The first goal should be to discern His Voice and to follow Him as closely as possible. I want to see His Face. I hear His Voice in many people, including almost all of the men Paul has tried to defame by this debate.

    As far as repentance goes, I don't believe that we are supposed to repent for a moment and walk off about our merry way. I believe that repentance is a way of life, and prefer to keep a contrite heart, which is considered very valuable by God. I may be a poor debater or defender of 'movements,' but have hardly been wounded, much less bloodied or defeated by the replies Paul has posted. A 'holier-than-thou' attitude is something that God and I both hate. The things I have stated have always been to point to His Righteousness, and not my own. The opposite is obvious in each of Paul's posts. His self-righteous deception is clear.

    "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." -- 2 John 1:7-11

    I believe that when we fail to recognize Christ in our fellow-Christians, and devour and defame them, we are doing so to Christ. I cannot say that I have any respect for anyone who does such things and teaches others to do the same. We need to build one another up, not to tear down. The work of Satan makes itself manifest, and is discerned by those who are in communion with the Lord Jesus. The Word of God is very clear on these points, and I have to keep the Word, and not fall to the deceptions of men, following their false doctrines. Hearing God's Voice for ourselves, I mean each and every individual Christian hearing directly from the throne, is the most important lesson that there is, and the church has neglected to teach it to the sheep. This is the reason there is so much confusion among Christians. They have no relationship with God, only 'knowledge,' if that is what you wish to call it. I call it a great tragedy. The Word of Faith is designed to enable Christians to hear from God, personally. The 'River,' movement, which is underway in Toronto, Pensacola and many other places, chronicled in The Remnant is far more significant current 'move' of God, and will soon be eclipsed by the Presence of God, which will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea. Until that day, I pray that every Word God spoke of you before the foundation of the earth should come to pass, and that it would prosper in the thing He sends It to accomplish. Keep the faith. Seek God every day, He wishes to be found.

    "Goodbye, and thanks for all the fish." -- The (bottle-nosed) dolphins, as they left earth before it was destroyed by the Vogons, in Douglas Adams' book, "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy."

  8. #38
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    DING DING DING

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