Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles
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1Way
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Lucky - and all - This is what I posted at the bottom of my second post, I thought it was the bottom of my first post, but somehow now it's the bottom of my second one.
Consider
Also, I would like to make a point about the nature of unstable man, and I will use myself as a primary example. Since my example is not in the bible and I will only apply it for what it is worth, please consider the following. You can not trust man any where near like you can trust God and His word.
For example, and I realize that this is an extreme case, but, when I was young, I was playing in the backyard of one of my neighbors. There was three of us and a younger girl, but she was not part of our game. We were playing jarts, and it was just me and my neighbor boy who was just one year older than me, and I'd guess that we were about 8 or so at the time, and the third guy was a friend of the neighbor boy's older brother, he may have been 4-5 years older or so. Anyway, at one point, my neighbor bent over to pick up my jarts while my teammate got the crazy idea of trying to throw one of his jarts into his circle! I was horrified, but just prior to him doing it, he clued me in about what he was going to do. I guess I didn't catch it right away and something went wrong in my mind, but more of that latter. Well this guy threw the jart way up high and it landed right in the knee of my neighbor. And by that time I was really shocked. It could have been waaaaay worse and it did not give him any serous problems, but,,, the story continues after I went home. I remember doing the dishes and feeling strange and bothered about what had happened to my neighbor, and finally I told my mother about it, and she became very angry with me. I told her that I was the one who threw the jart. After my neighbor got home from the hospital my mother took me over there and made me apologize for what I had done. It was one of the weirdest things that I've ever experienced, and I was feeling really guilty about it all too. They just looked at me strangely and said that I didn't do it, it was the other boy who was gone by then. At first I didn't believe them, and then they finally convinced me about what had actually happened.
Somehow I had transferred my horror and shock and dismay, through my neighbors complete ignorance of what was about to happen, and blamed my self for not doing anything about it. I can still see him there, bending over picking up the darts right before he threw it. He was bent over picking up my jarts when the other guy threw his, only when I think about it, I mostly don't know who's jarts were who's, and to make matters worse, he (the older boy) had been making me laugh almost the entire time, so when he clued me in to his stupid idea, I was caught unawares and was actually laughing about it while he did it!!!! That is a twisted thought. Such a traumatic experience threw me for a loop as I am a really emotive or sensitive person when it comes to other people's feelings, and was perhaps as impressionable as I would ever be, and it really bothered me about what had just happened. For the most part, I was unable to reconcile my thoughts and my feelings and my actions with what actually happened, and to make matters worse, right after it happened, I was alone to walk to my house in this state of shock and emotional upheaval and disbelief. I really don't know exactly how I got things so mixed up, but psychologists tell us that under certain high stress situations, our fight or flight survival mechanisms can induce some strange effects on our psyche if we have no means of fight or flight. Since considering this phenomenon I give the likelihood of the validity of abuse victims suppressing their abuse memories, or turning them into something that it was not in order to protect themselves at the time of the abuse.
The point should be clear, we are prone to error, even able to make completely wrong assessments. I've heard people say for example that they were entertained by an angle, perhaps you have heard this story too. One minute they were they, and then right after I turned and looked back, they were gone, I mean gone, no where in sight and there was no where for them to have hid in that short of a period of time. Thus it must have been an angel. It's called being human, we make mistakes, honest mistakes. So we need to examine what is and is not a miracle, and by what evidence we can trust to validate a miracle if we are going to get anywhere.
Consider
And if possible, lets not get too subjective, lets let God's word rule over our faith. For those who promote miracles are for today, they will tend to list example after example as though their subjective (and likely biased) witness should determine the truth of the matter.
Also, I would like to make a point about the nature of unstable man, and I will use myself as a primary example. Since my example is not in the bible and I will only apply it for what it is worth, please consider the following. You can not trust man any where near like you can trust God and His word.
For example, and I realize that this is an extreme case, but, when I was young, I was playing in the backyard of one of my neighbors. There was three of us and a younger girl, but she was not part of our game. We were playing jarts, and it was just me and my neighbor boy who was just one year older than me, and I'd guess that we were about 8 or so at the time, and the third guy was a friend of the neighbor boy's older brother, he may have been 4-5 years older or so. Anyway, at one point, my neighbor bent over to pick up my jarts while my teammate got the crazy idea of trying to throw one of his jarts into his circle! I was horrified, but just prior to him doing it, he clued me in about what he was going to do. I guess I didn't catch it right away and something went wrong in my mind, but more of that latter. Well this guy threw the jart way up high and it landed right in the knee of my neighbor. And by that time I was really shocked. It could have been waaaaay worse and it did not give him any serous problems, but,,, the story continues after I went home. I remember doing the dishes and feeling strange and bothered about what had happened to my neighbor, and finally I told my mother about it, and she became very angry with me. I told her that I was the one who threw the jart. After my neighbor got home from the hospital my mother took me over there and made me apologize for what I had done. It was one of the weirdest things that I've ever experienced, and I was feeling really guilty about it all too. They just looked at me strangely and said that I didn't do it, it was the other boy who was gone by then. At first I didn't believe them, and then they finally convinced me about what had actually happened.
Somehow I had transferred my horror and shock and dismay, through my neighbors complete ignorance of what was about to happen, and blamed my self for not doing anything about it. I can still see him there, bending over picking up the darts right before he threw it. He was bent over picking up my jarts when the other guy threw his, only when I think about it, I mostly don't know who's jarts were who's, and to make matters worse, he (the older boy) had been making me laugh almost the entire time, so when he clued me in to his stupid idea, I was caught unawares and was actually laughing about it while he did it!!!! That is a twisted thought. Such a traumatic experience threw me for a loop as I am a really emotive or sensitive person when it comes to other people's feelings, and was perhaps as impressionable as I would ever be, and it really bothered me about what had just happened. For the most part, I was unable to reconcile my thoughts and my feelings and my actions with what actually happened, and to make matters worse, right after it happened, I was alone to walk to my house in this state of shock and emotional upheaval and disbelief. I really don't know exactly how I got things so mixed up, but psychologists tell us that under certain high stress situations, our fight or flight survival mechanisms can induce some strange effects on our psyche if we have no means of fight or flight. Since considering this phenomenon I give the likelihood of the validity of abuse victims suppressing their abuse memories, or turning them into something that it was not in order to protect themselves at the time of the abuse.
The point should be clear, we are prone to error, even able to make completely wrong assessments. I've heard people say for example that they were entertained by an angle, perhaps you have heard this story too. One minute they were they, and then right after I turned and looked back, they were gone, I mean gone, no where in sight and there was no where for them to have hid in that short of a period of time. Thus it must have been an angel. It's called being human, we make mistakes, honest mistakes. So we need to examine what is and is not a miracle, and by what evidence we can trust to validate a miracle if we are going to get anywhere.
1Way
+OL remote satellite affiliate
Lucky - The OV has no voice on the matter. You must come to understand that the OV is not a theology per say, it dramatically affects one's theology, no doubt, but it says nothing about many theological issues like this one for example.
Also, you seem like a fairly intelligent and reasonable person. But I must say that you display a large, albeit a common ignorance over things that you do not agree with. When if you give it just a half a thought, you can never really disagree with something that you don't really understand very well. :think: You know about dispensations but you don't know about any practical use for them, which restated means that you don't know anything practical or substantial about dispensations. Same with the OV. You wonder what the OV has to say about miracles for today, yet it can have nothing to say about it since that issue is outside of it's sphere, although I imagine that you may have simply wondered what we think about the issue, I would not argue either way. People are self promoters. We live in a society where we have to do that on almost a constant basis, otherwise, if we don't, we would likely get run over by masses which are more than willing to step all over you to give them some momentary advantage if you give them just half a chance. However, in God's eyes and in His kingdom, humility and a soul willing to stand corrected is never trampled underfoot, but rather is honored and exalted in a most wonderful way. Promote your ignorance through humility and you may be astounded at the spiritual real world results, of course, given the right environment exists.
Thank you for sharing about your lack of knowledge in these areas that for some strange reason, you have found yourself in "disagreement".
Also, you seem like a fairly intelligent and reasonable person. But I must say that you display a large, albeit a common ignorance over things that you do not agree with. When if you give it just a half a thought, you can never really disagree with something that you don't really understand very well. :think: You know about dispensations but you don't know about any practical use for them, which restated means that you don't know anything practical or substantial about dispensations. Same with the OV. You wonder what the OV has to say about miracles for today, yet it can have nothing to say about it since that issue is outside of it's sphere, although I imagine that you may have simply wondered what we think about the issue, I would not argue either way. People are self promoters. We live in a society where we have to do that on almost a constant basis, otherwise, if we don't, we would likely get run over by masses which are more than willing to step all over you to give them some momentary advantage if you give them just half a chance. However, in God's eyes and in His kingdom, humility and a soul willing to stand corrected is never trampled underfoot, but rather is honored and exalted in a most wonderful way. Promote your ignorance through humility and you may be astounded at the spiritual real world results, of course, given the right environment exists.
Thank you for sharing about your lack of knowledge in these areas that for some strange reason, you have found yourself in "disagreement".
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Classic Pentecostals (my roots) are usually Arminians. Open Theism could be seen as a subtype of Arminianism. Many Pentecostals lean to Open Theism, and affirm that miracles happen today. Other Open Theists are from traditions that dispensationalize them away.
I agree with Freak on miracles. I agree with Enyart of Open Theism. Regardless of our beliefs, they should be defensible from Scripture, and not just anecdotal experience (though there are hundreds of millions of charismatic/Pentecostals who know the person and work of the Holy Spirit today).
Freak would have to read "The Plot" since it attempts to build a case line by line. If there are wrong assumptions and proof texts out of context, some conclusions will be off (though the journey seems to be compelling or consistent).
I found myself agreeing with some, but not all of the 2 columns Enyart came up with (disagree with = no miracles, no baptism, and unconditional eternal security for the modern believer). I am still reading the book.
I agree with Freak on miracles. I agree with Enyart of Open Theism. Regardless of our beliefs, they should be defensible from Scripture, and not just anecdotal experience (though there are hundreds of millions of charismatic/Pentecostals who know the person and work of the Holy Spirit today).
Freak would have to read "The Plot" since it attempts to build a case line by line. If there are wrong assumptions and proof texts out of context, some conclusions will be off (though the journey seems to be compelling or consistent).
I found myself agreeing with some, but not all of the 2 columns Enyart came up with (disagree with = no miracles, no baptism, and unconditional eternal security for the modern believer). I am still reading the book.
Freak
New member
2Way, instead of babbling (and the same goes for drnonsense) deal with my earlier posts:
We are told in Holy Scripture that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. 1Way, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc????
The Holy Scriptures don't seem to make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).
The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13).
Homework for 1Way:
If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the apostles, as you claim, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question.
If Jesus’ miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldn’t they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Can’t we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?
At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.
According to the Dictionary, a miracle is defined as:
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin miraculum, from Latin, a wonder, marvel, from mirari to wonder at
Date: 12th century
1 : an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
According to this definition a miracle would include the new birth. Christ indwelling the believer is a "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs." Christ intervened in human affairs and manifested an extraordinary event--the new birth.
So what miracles would you like to keep and which ones would you like to throw out?
New birth?
Healing of the broken heart?
Physical healing?
Deliverance from demons?
Opening closed wombs?
We are told in Holy Scripture that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. 1Way, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc????
The Holy Scriptures don't seem to make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).
The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13).
Homework for 1Way:
If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the apostles, as you claim, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question.
If Jesus’ miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldn’t they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Can’t we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?
At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.
According to the Dictionary, a miracle is defined as:
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin miraculum, from Latin, a wonder, marvel, from mirari to wonder at
Date: 12th century
1 : an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
According to this definition a miracle would include the new birth. Christ indwelling the believer is a "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs." Christ intervened in human affairs and manifested an extraordinary event--the new birth.
So what miracles would you like to keep and which ones would you like to throw out?
New birth?
Healing of the broken heart?
Physical healing?
Deliverance from demons?
Opening closed wombs?
Thank you kindly for sharing that. You have to realize that OV is something new to me, as well as much of the theological jargon not seen anywhere in scripture, which is what I'm used to studying. It's gonna take a while before I know what which jargon matches what beliefs.
Now that's a broad statement that might confuse people. When it come to dispensations, I'm no beginner, yet I'm no where near expert. When it come to miracles, well, I've read a whole lot on that before! And that my friend is where I disagree with you - on miracles. I consider dispensations a different topic. And of course, one I have no idea where you, the other OV-ers, and/or the other Enyartists stand.
(BTW, please do not take offense at my use of "Enyartist" or "Enyartism." I'm in no way trying to be derogatory.)
Freak
New member
Are you so dense to actually believe the garbage that comes out of your mind? We are aware of spiritual gifts via the revealed Word of God. Were you aware of this?
Prove that. You base this on what evidence? Besides, I'm not a charismatic (I attend an Anglican Fellowship) and yet I believe in all of the spiritual gifts, due to the fact that we are told in Holy Scripture that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. 1Way, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc????
Furthermore...the Holy Scriptures don't seem to make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).
This is your problem...you trust man over God. Scripture speaks of God giving His spiritual gifts to His people to minister to the hurting (See Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42).
Allow me to educate you...
According to the Dictionary, a miracle is defined as:
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin miraculum, from Latin, a wonder, marvel, from mirari to wonder at
Date: 12th century
1 : an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
According to this definition a miracle would include the new birth. Christ indwelling the believer is a "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs." Christ intervened in human affairs and manifested an extraordinary event--the new birth.
Are you dumbed down to the point of not being able to understand Scripture?
If Jesus’ miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldn’t they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Can’t we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?
At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.
Freak
New member
"Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say."
This has been 1Way's problem.
"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
Since 1Way is deaf to the things of God one could conclude that he doesn't belong to God. See the last of what Jesus said: The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.
Can you hear, 1Way? I'm afraid you have duped yourself to believing a lie which has led to your spiritual deafness.
I think I have witnessed enough of you're handling of this debate. It's pathetic. :down: I think I'll await for someone else to debate this issue with me or Bob.
Freak
New member
My position (or should I say our position) is defensible from Scripture, as I have pointed out. I have not defended my position on the basis of anecdotal evidence. This is clear. :up:
Furthermore..I agree that this isn't a salvation issue. But, I do believe it affects how one ministers and is able to minister....
Dear Freak,Dear 1Way my brothers
Let's please take a step back from both of your definition's of maracles and see if we can reach at least one simple basic area of agreement.
Jesus Christ is right now in the buisness of healing broken hearts and broken lives.
Let's please take a step back from both of your definition's of maracles and see if we can reach at least one simple basic area of agreement.
Jesus Christ is right now in the buisness of healing broken hearts and broken lives.
Freak
New member
I already gave you the definition of a miracle.
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin miraculum, from Latin, a wonder, marvel, from mirari to wonder at
Date: 12th century
1 : an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
According to this definition a miracle would include the new birth. Christ indwelling the believer is a "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs." Christ intervened in human affairs and manifested an extraordinary event--the new birth. So miracles do still occur in our day.
Amen and Amen!:thumb: