Christians worship Christ; JW's do not!

genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

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Tambora said:
And they are both false claims as GOD clearly said that He formed (created) no god.



Isaiah 43 KJV
(10) Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.​



To claim that GOD formed Jesus to be "a god" would go against what GOD Himself proclaimed.
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Who claimed that God formed Jesus to be "a god".
The Bible states that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.
The Bible states that Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God.
The Bible states that God gave Jesus all judgment.
The Bible states that God put everything under Jesus' feet with the sole exception of Himself.
 
P

popsthebuilder

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
I will ignore the opening claims above and respond to the substance of your erroneous and jejune conclusion.

God is one What (essence) and three Who's (subsistences, aka Persons).

Essence and Person are not the same things. Essence refers to the being of God, while Person is used here as substance within being (subsisting as, subsistence).

The term Person does not mean a distinction in essence but a different subsistence in the Godhead. A subsistence in the Godhead is a real difference but not an essential difference in the sense of a difference in being. Each Person of the Godhead subsists or exists "under" the pure essence of deity. Subsistence is a difference within the scope of being, not a separate being or essence. All persons in the Godhead have all the attributes of deity.

Formally speaking, subsistence is the means of individuation of essence with respect to existence. Less formally, subsistence is the means by which essence exercises existence, or even more succinctly, subsistence means something that really exists.

So we can say that Person, with reference to the Trinity, means the one divine essence in a specific manner of existence and distinguished by this specific manner of existence from that one divine essence and the other Persons.

The divine essence does not exist independently along with the three Persons. The divine essence has no existence outside of and apart from the three Persons. For if the divine essence did, there would be no true unity, but a division that would lead into tetratheism.

Hence, Within the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and co-eternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

If we look a bit deeper the statement above can be parsed as follows:

1. There is in the divine Being (God) but one indivisible essence (ousia, essential, being), see Deuteronomy 6:4, 1 Corinthians 8:4, Galatians 3:20, 1 Timothy 2:5.
2. The nature of the one divine being, God, is inclusive of all the attributes of His being, that is, God is His attributes.
3. In this one divine Being (God) there are three personal distinctions (what the church throughout history calls Persons), or individual subsistences (personal modes of existence) Father, Son and Holy Spirit, see Genesis 1:1, 26, 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1, Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14.
4. The whole undivided essence of God belongs equally to each of the three persons, see John 6:27, Romans 1:7, 1 Peter 1:2, John 1:1, 14, Romans 9:5, Colossians 2:9, Hebrews 1:8, 1 John 5:20, Acts 5:3-4, 1 Corinthians 3:16.
5. The subsistence and operation of the three persons in the divine Being is marked by a certain definite order, see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, 1 John 4:14, John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, John 16:13-14.
6. There are certain personal attributes by which the three persons are distinguished, see 1 Corinthians 8:6, Revelation 4:11, Revelation 1:1, John 3:16-17, 1 Corinthians 8:6, John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17, John 1:1, 16:12-15, Matthew 11:27, Revelation 1:1, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Matthew 1:21, John 4:42, Genesis 1:2, Job 26:13, Psalm 104:30, John 16:12-15, Ephesians 3:5, 2 Peter 1:21, John 3:6, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 1:2, Isaiah 61:1, Acts 10:38.


AMR
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Explain that to a child.....better yet, have them explain it back to you.

So beggotten means co-eternal?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 
NWL

NWL

Active member
drbrumley said:
LOL! Sure thing kiddo...I suggest you go back to your Kingdom Hall and figure out what your cult teaches.

I already know it all too well.

Out of interest, was this comment that you made "God created us in their image. We are what? Body, Soul, Spirit?" you implying that the Father, Son and HS were made up of those things, since its often taught that we are made out of flesh/body, soul and spirit?
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No answer mate?
 
meshak

meshak

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truthjourney said:
I don't quite understand what you mean. If you read one of my first posts I mentioned that I had compassion for JWs. It's those in leadership roles especially the Governing Body that I have a problem with because they have so much power and control over so many aspects of a person's life and the decisions that they aren't allowed to make on their own.

What do you mean that they follow Paul's instructions? From what I know they follow the Governing Body's instruction, rules, regulations and teachings.

How am I closing my eyes to their persecutions? I say what I'm saying because I care. I don't say that they aren't Christians because only God sees their hearts. I have met many JWs who are kind with good hearts who are sincere and really want to help people. Again, I have a problem with those in leadership especially the Governing Body. But there have been good men on the Governing Body like Ray Franz who was disfellowshipped for eating a meal with a disassociated person. He wrote a book called Crisis of Conscience that detailed things that he saw and experienced at the Watchtower that really bothered his conscience.

I hope I'm not coming across as being judgmental because that's not my intention.

Or are you referring to things that have been said to you. I'm a little confused.
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You have been criticizing JW unfairly imo.

You dismiss that JWs have basic of Christian faith and you are dismissing this fact.

I have never seen you confronting Trinitarians like you are doing to JW organization.

You seem to closing your eyes when non-trins are called cult, not believers, unsaved, child of the devil.

You seem to be the devil's advocate.

Do you know who Christians are?
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

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NWL said:
The only issue is that Adam and Eve being one isnt the same and the Father, Son and HS being one.
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Why not?

NWL said:
Firstly, scripture directly states that a man and his wife are one, nowhere do we find any verse saying that the Father, Son and HS are one.
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We have verses that state that the Son of God and the Father are one.
The Council of Nicaea in 325 established the Son of God and the Father in a binitarianism relationship (two in one).
The Holy Spirit was thrown into that relationship as God and the Trinity doctrine was established at the First Council of Constantinople 381 CE.

NWL said:
Secondly, no one would deny that whilst a man and his wife are one flesh that they are still separate beings. This is not the case with the trinity doctrine, which teaches that even though God is one who is three persons, those persons are not individual beings, but rather one being, God.
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That is the point where the proponents of the Trinity doctrine fails to make their case.
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

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drbrumley said:
Scripture says they were, so what's the argument?
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We both agree that Scripture says they were one flesh.
The question is HOW are Adam and Eve one flesh?

Of course, the problem with the Trinity doctrine is that the Bible never states that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one being.
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

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Grosnick Marowbe said:
There is; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
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The Bible never says "God the Son" nor "God the Holy Spirit".
Grosnick Marowbe said:
There's many different ways to try to explain what the 'Trinity' is, however, I believe we must just, trust what the Bible says and not try to push any 'personal explanation' as 'Gospel,' so to say.
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That is what non-Trinitarians do, but Trinitarians object to that.
Grosnick Marowbe said:
There are three, yet, those three are ONE. That's the pure and the simple of it.
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The question is HOW the three are one.
The Bible does not state that they are one being.
The Bible does use the phrase "one mind" for a group that is in agreement with the thoughts and ideals of each other.
Non-Trinitarians read that the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost are one (in agreement with each other) and not one (being).
 
NWL

NWL

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genuineoriginal said:
Why not?
I clearly showed why not.

Firstly, Scripture never states that the F,S and HS are one but it does state man and his wife are one.
Secondly, Adam and eve were two separate beings who were one flesh, whereas the trinity doctrine is that the Father, Son and HS are one being who are three persons. These are two different ideas, husband and wife being one is not the same as the trinity doctrine.


We have verses that state that the Son of God and the Father are one.
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The trinity is that three person are one, not two, John 10:30 contradicts the trinity.

John 10:30 is not about anyone being deity, John 17:20-23 cleary shows that the oneness cant be talking about oneness in deity.
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genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

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Tambora said:
It says the 3 are 1.
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1 John 5:7-8
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.​

The three agree in unity.

Tambora said:
You are equating "being" with a single person only.
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Yes, each person is a separate being.

Tambora said:
A unity can also be a being, as 1 family, 1 country, etc.
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A conglomerate of multiple beings can also be a single being?
If you are applying that to the Trinity doctrine, you have just turned it into Polytheism.
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

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NWL said:
Firstly, Scripture never states that the F,S and HS are one but it does state man and his wife are one.
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1 John 5:7-8
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.​


NWL said:
Secondly, Adam and eve were two separate beings who were one flesh, whereas the trinity doctrine is that the Father, Son and HS are one being who are three persons. These are two different ideas, husband and wife being one is not the same as the trinity doctrine.
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Yes. It is up to the Trinitarians to prove that the Bible teaches the Trinity doctrine that God is one being who is also three beings, but they can't do it from scripture.


NWL said:
The trinity is that three person are one, not two, John 10:30 contradicts the trinity.

John 10:30 is not about anyone being deity, John 17:20-23 cleary shows that the oneness cant be talking about oneness in deity.
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:thumb:
 
Tambora

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NWL said:
Firstly, Scripture never states that the F,S and HS are one
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1 John 5:7 KJV
(7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Go ahead and try to form a mathematical equation for that.
 
JudgeRightly

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THREE QUESTIONS TO DETERMINE IF THE TRINITY IS BIBLICALLY TRUE OR FALSE. If any one of these questions can be answered 'no,' then the Trinity can be rejected as an unbiblical belief. But if all three can be answered 'yes,' then the concept of the Trinity can be accepted as true.

1. Does the Bible mention three distinct persons?

2. Does the Bible refer to each of these persons as God?

3. Does the Bible teach there is only one God?

The answers:

1. Are three distinct persons mentioned? YES.
A. The Father (1 John 3:1)
B. The Son (1 John 1:3)
C. The Holy Spirit (John 14:6; 14:26; 15:26; 16:13-14; Romans 15:30; Ephesians 4:30)

2. Are each of these persons referred to as God? YES.
A. God the Father (1 Thessalonians 1:1)
B. God the Son (John 1:1; 20:28; Hebrews 1:8-9)
C. God the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4)

3. Is there only one God? YES.
(see Deuteronomy 4:35-39; Psalm 86:10; Isaiah 45:5; 45:22)



FOR ANYONE WHO REJECTS THE TRINITY AS BIBLICAL:
Please show how the verses provided do not answer in the affirmative all three questions asked.
 
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