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Thread: One on One: A Reasonable Dialogue - Sozo and godrulz

  1. #31
    Registered User Sozo's Avatar
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    William...

    Are you holy if you obey God and do not sin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sozo View Post
    William...

    Are you holy if you obey God and do not sin?

    If you do a word/context study on sanctify, there are two truths: we are initially, positionally set apart as holy unto the Lord. We are saints (holy ones), even while we struggle and mature. Secondly, there is a progressive, actual working out of holiness where every thought, motive, action, word is either vice or virtue (in that one choice, not to be confused with our setting apart at justification). Like Paul, we are not absolutely perfect (especially if we are committing adultery, for e.g.), but we strive in His might as we move from glory to glory in our increasing knowledge and surrender to the Lord Jesus Christ (Phil. 3 context is not just about ministry).

    Yes, I am holy in Him. Even in your view, you claim to be holy even if you disobey God and do sin. If you can claim that, I can certainly claim the truths of Scripture:

    I Peter 1:13-16 "Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. As OBEDIENT children, DO NOT conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as He who called you is holy, so be holy in all YOU DO; for it is written: 'Be holy, because I am holy.'"

    Imperatives (commands) are to be obeyed. Sanctification is not automatic (except in sense when it is concurrent with initial justification...an initial setting apart is followed by a progressive inworking of the life of Christ into our lives by the Spirit). There is a Godward and a manward side. The extremes of Calvinism, Arminianism, Keswick, Augustinian-dispensational, Reformed, Wesleyan, Pentecostal, etc. agree with this principle, but you seem to emphasize one aspect while ignoring the other aspect (in an unnecessary attempt to avoid works salvation). Because Scripture does not divorce holiness/obedience/doing, neither will I.

    2 Cor. 7:2 "Since we have these promises, dear friends, let US PURIFY OURSELVES from everything that contaminates body and spirit (I still do not get you and lighthouse artificially dividing spirit from what we do with the body), PERFECTING (ongoing verb tense) holiness out of reverence for God."

    As you know, the Corinthian 'saints' had sin in their camp. I biblical view does not support theoretical positional holiness without practical, actual holiness in word, thought, deed, motive, etc.

    Rom. 12:1, 2 is not a passive, one time issue at conversion. It also involves our choices and our bodies in the pursuit of holiness. Again, the imperatives show that we have something to do with it. Other verses also talk about the great resource of the indwelling Holy Spirit, apart from whom, we will never be conformed to His image.

    Rom. 6 also talks about our volitional offering of our body parts , in obedience, leading to righteousness (vv. 13, 16). This contrasts with offering body parts to sin as instruments of wickedness, leading to slavery (v. 13).

    Because Paul does not divorce righteousness from behavior, neither will I. This does not mean my behavior apart from the Spirit makes me holy. Our self-righteousness is like filthy rags.

    Loving obedience is not a work and is consistent with biblical holiness.

    I challenged you to look up all verses about holiness, love, obedience, etc. It will present a broader picture than your limited one.


    Sinless perfectionism is as much heretical as self-righteousness and works legalism (loving obedience is part of relationship with the Master, not a work nor legalism). I trust neither of us hold to extremes
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

  3. #33
    Registered User Sozo's Avatar
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    Are you (William) holy if you obey God and do not sin?

    If you do sin, are you (William) unholy at that precise moment?

    These are two simple questions that can be answered yes or no.

    Either you remain holy when you sin, or you are unholy when you sin.

    There is no middle ground. Answer the question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sozo View Post
    Are you (William) holy if you obey God and do not sin?

    If you do sin, are you (William) unholy at that precise moment?

    These are two simple questions that can be answered yes or no.

    Either you remain holy when you sin, or you are unholy when you sin.

    There is no middle ground. Answer the question.

    For sozo: Yes and No (my choice is unholy, but I am still set apart unto God and in Him who is holy).

    The horns of a dilemma. Is this like the proverbial 'when did you stop beating your wife?'. I suspect if I do not answer with a perfectionist position, you will assume I am a Pharisee.

    For those who want to explore the issue (without a dogmatic conclusion)...

    If I sin, I am still in Christ at that moment. In myself, my flesh (starting to sound like you, yikes), I am not holy. Is that common ground for us (except the part about sinning, but you are playing my game at the moment)? Christ is holy. My specific choice at the moment is not. Adultery is never holy. Can we separate the person from the choice? Can we distinguish general standing from specific moment? The Bible says that those who do x, y, z will not inherit the kingdom (I Cor. 6). Some Christians do these things. The difference is a habitual giving over to sin by a godless person, vs an isolated lapse by a believer who remains a believer. Unbelief is also a unique sin. There is provision for all sin, but not everyone is saved. We may quibble about when the provision is applied and how, but we do not disagree about its efficacy or power.

    I think part of the issue is separating one specific choice at one moment (vice or virtue depending on motive, obedience vs disobedience) from our general bent, state, status. The Corinthians were fingered for specific sins, yet they were called 'saints', holy ones. They were still set apart unto God (one meaning of sanctification), yet had an unholy choice (not negating their sonship or relationship with God).

    Even if my understanding is still a work in progress, is this really a denial of the person and finished work of Christ? Is it a denial of the supreme need for the Holy Spirit to reproduce the life and character of Christ in us (fruit of the Spirit)? Is surrender or obedient choices in love an outflow of His life in us, not necessarily a self-righteous attempt to work one's way to perfection (religion, not relationship with Christ)?

    Is is possible to consider my understanding sub-par without negating my precious relationship with Christ who alone can save by grace through faith apart from works?

    At the moment, without detailed thought, I am comfortable with my general understanding and do not sense illumination from the Word by the Spirit that would make me renounce principles in order to articulate sozo's expressions of similar ideas.

    Justification and sanctification are similar, but not identical in every aspect. If we blur this distinction, I think it will lead to imperfect understanding.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Registered User Sozo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    For sozo: Yes and No (my choice is unholy, but I am still set apart unto God and in Him who is holy).
    Was that so hard?

    So you affirm, in the above statement, that you are unholy based on your sin, but that you (an unholy person) are in God who is holy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sozo View Post
    Was that so hard?

    So you affirm, in the above statement, that you are unholy based on your sin, but that you (an unholy person) are in God who is holy?
    Mmmm...not the way I would put it.

    I am not unholy in total based on one unholy choice. There is a difference between an unholy, godless person who habitually sins and a godly, holy-in-Christ believer who has an isolated lapse into sin (without negating their salvation or standing in Christ). It sounds like a leading question that I cannot agree to.

    The one act is not consistent with God's holiness or His expected standard for us (we should not call good evil and evil good), but that does not make the person an unholy person in relationship with a holy God. They are still children of God, holy, set apart unto the Lord, experiencing the refining presence of the Spirit. They can expect discipline as disobedient children (Heb. 12), not as unholy objects of wrath (Eph. 2).

    Yes/No may not be the best way to answer complex questions that may need qualifying to retain balanced truth.

    I may never fit your preconceived mold as to how I should answer the questions, but the purpose of the thread was to reasonably see if I am a raving heretic, a godless unbeliever, a wise student of the Word and fellow believer, or a believer, but in need of further insight and teaching. I trust we can jettison the first possibility (unless I am blind as a bat to my views being diametrically opposed to possible biblical understanding...you will find very few who will say things the way you do or believe just like you...they could parrot some of it, but mean different things or not really understand what you are saying).

    Which smilie is most appropriate for me at this point?

















    ??

    If this is a dialogue, maybe I should turn the tables and put sozo on the defensive (though you would and have interpreted my verses so far differently, they do merit comment since they support my view in principle and are problematic for your view...unless you start rationalizing them away).

    Are we having fun yet?

    Are we making any progress?
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    On a positive note, let's shed some light on things that make us seem like ships passing in the night.

    The NT gives a variety of words for sin. Paul and John's use, for example, has commonality and differences. Some words include hamartia, hamartano, poneros, adikia, anomia, etc. A composite picture of sin as missing God's standard, malicious evil, social evil, willful rebellion, lawlessness, selfishness, etc. is painted.
    If sozo focuses on one aspect, I should not be faulted for pointing out other aspects.

    Likewise, if we reduce salvation to 'life' (my impression of sozo's emphasis), I should not be faulted for upholding all the other equally valid concepts relating to what salvation is and is not (e.g. reconciled love relationship is as valid as life).

    In light of this, can we be more than the good friends we are (sic), and have a 'reasonable dialogue' as brothers in Christ?

    Take your time. If you honestly believe I am what you have said in the past, then 'Red Alert. Battle stations. Battle stations'. We will give an account for our convictions. Do not compromise, but do not be misguided/misinformed.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

  8. #38
    Registered User Sozo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    I am not unholy in total based on one unholy choice. There is a difference between an unholy, godless person who habitually sins and a godly, holy-in-Christ believer who has an isolated lapse into sin (without negating their salvation or standing in Christ). It sounds like a leading question that I cannot agree to.
    This is where your entire belief system is without merit.

    You contradict truth in every aspect.

    A women is not a little pregnant. A person is either holy or unholy. One sin corrupts. Adam only committed one transgression that brought death.

    A believer is made holy through faith in Christ. A false believer makes themselves holy or unholy through their obedience, or lack thereof.

    A false believer, a relgious moralist, teaches that holiness is a result of human effort.

    I affirm that Knight, Poly, and others have been deceived by your false gospel, and I affirm in all assurance before God that you neither know God, nor does He know you.

    I am ashamed of those who have come to your defense. They need to repent, and rebuke you for your false gospel.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sozo View Post
    This is where your entire belief system is without merit.

    You contradict truth in every aspect.

    A women is not a little pregnant. A person is either holy or unholy. One sin corrupts. Adam only committed one transgression that brought death.

    A believer is made holy through faith in Christ. A false believer makes themselves holy or unholy through their obedience, or lack thereof.

    A false believer, a relgious moralist, teaches that holiness is a result of human effort.

    I affirm that Knight, Poly, and others have been deceived by your false gospel, and I affirm in all assurance before God that you neither know God, nor does He know you.

    I am ashamed of those who have come to your defense. They need to repent, and rebuke you for your false gospel.
    Well, that went south in a hurry. Good thing I did not hold my breath or wait for a blue moon.

    If a person is one or the other, it does not explain individual choices. In your view, pressed to its conclusions, adultery is holy, despite being lawless and against the character of God.

    Adam's Fall is more catastrophic and far-reaching than a moment of lust by a believer. Analagous is not identical in all respects.

    Loving obedience is subsequent to salvation and an expression of grace and saving faith in a person's life. It is explicit in Scripture based on imperatives and exhortations (often behavior related) to believers. Justification is by grace through faith alone. Talking about living the Christian life after this is not tantamount to denying Christ and His finished work. Knight and others have the wisdom, maturity, and discernment to understand this. They are hardly defending a false gospel or a false teacher. They are not deceived and are quick to side with you against me on many related issues.

    The Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God. Your false accusations from your flesh or the accuser of the brethren (demons) does not faze me.

    I do not teach that holiness is a result of human effort, but you will be hard pressed to defend a passive, monergistic view of sanctification. Even Calvinists are not that extreme. You would have to ignore multiple passages do defend your myopic view and conclude that I am a false teacher who does not know Christ (you never commented on my personal experience in the first few points because you must call me a liar and claim that Jesus cannot save apart from being a sozoite).

    Is this the end of the road?
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Registered User Sozo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    If a person is one or the other, it does not explain individual choices. In your view, pressed to its conclusions, adultery is holy, despite being lawless and against the character of God.
    Adultery is a sin, William. You said that sin makes you unholy. You believe, and teach, that you are unholy (or holy) based on what you do or do not do. That is self-righteousness. You decide (based solely on your behavior), whether or not you are acceptable to God. It is not Jesus that makes you acceptable, but you. It is not the shed blood of Jesus that makes you holy, but you make you holy.

    This has been your belief since you have come to TOL. These are the beliefs of someone who denies Christ, no matter what you state to the contrary, you maintain that righteousness is predicated upon your abilitiy to obey God. You have another gospel.

    Jesus died for all sin, for all time, for all men.

    By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone is the only way that man is saved. Through faith in Christ we receive His life. In His life we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. In His life we are made holy, righteous, blameless, sanctifed, and perfected.


    You teach contrary to the truth of the gospel. You still affirm that a Christian is judged by the Law for righteousness (as you clearly stated in your quote).

    I seriously question the faith of anyone who comes to your defense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sozo View Post
    Adultery is a sin, William. You said that sin makes you unholy. You believe, and teach, that you are unholy (or holy) based on what you do or do not do. That is self-righteousness. You decide (based solely on your behavior), whether or not you are acceptable to God. It is not Jesus that makes you acceptable, but you. It is not the shed blood of Jesus that makes you holy, but you make you holy.

    This has been your belief since you have come to TOL. These are the beliefs of someone who denies Christ, no matter what you state to the contrary, you maintain that righteousness is predicated upon your abilitiy to obey God. You have another gospel.

    Jesus died for all sin, for all time, for all men.

    By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone is the only way that man is saved. Through faith in Christ we receive His life. In His life we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. In His life we are made holy, righteous, blameless, sanctifed, and perfected.


    You teach contrary to the truth of the gospel. You still affirm that a Christian is judged by the Law for righteousness (as you clearly stated in your quote).

    I seriously question the faith of anyone who comes to your defense.
    I am not sure you are reading closely. If you define and apply holy within a very narrow parameter, I will never satisfy YOUR mold. If you look at the hundreds of references that involve holiness and holy, the picture is more composite than you are admitting. I can affirm your one truth, but you cannot dismiss my other truths, if you want to have the complete understanding of holiness. I gave verses that explicitly linked holiness with what we do, obedience, etc., not just something God unilaterally does. You can dismiss or twist them, but why not take them at face value and alter your preconceptions?

    Did I say sin makes us totally unholy? No. I said that any given choice is vice or virtue, sinful or righteous. Adultery is sinful. Worshipping God is not a sinful act, so what else do you call it? Like your understanding of sin, your definition of holiness and salvation is based on partial evidence. This is one reason you continue to reject a straw man of my view. I am holy based on receiving Christ as Lord and Savior. The contexts that affirm this equate this holiness/sanctification with justification, an initial setting apart as holy unto God apart from works (grace/faith alone). This is the crux of determining if I have a false gospel or not. I do not combine faith + works (Judaizer) in order to be right with God. As I said before, it is based on the person and work of Christ, His shed blood alone. You may think my ideas subsequent to salvation are fishy, but that is still not proof that I am a Christ-hater who relishes in a false gospel of religion, not relationship.

    What I am trying to avoid is the heresy that we are perfect and holy in Christ no matter how godless, lawless, unholy we are in our choices. Those believers who fornicate one hour and then spout how holy they are as they worship God are not living up to the exhortation to be holy even as He is holy (remember Peter uses the dirty word obedience in the same verse as this quote). If you are holy in Christ, and we are, then it better be reflected in a specific choice. You can play semantical games, but God judges reality. He does not just see Jesus and His blood and your perfect holiness in Christ while you are fornicating. He is not blind nor is he mocked. You figure out the theory. I cannot just embrace a position that is based on a narrow, limited application of what holiness is and is not. It is more practical than you realize (as much as you do not like Wesley and Finney, they stood in the face of antinomianism and linked theory with practice, doctrine with practical Christian living, JUST LIKE PAUL did).

    As I have shared about my personal life and my father's conversion, it would be impossible for me or him to have eternal life based on what we do or do not do. This goes against everything I have been saying for years here.

    Loving obedience subsequent to salvation does not save you or keep you. We are saved by grace through faith, not works. Salvation is a free gift (Eph. 2:8-10). Paul, in the same breath, then talks about the fruit of works that is linked to the root of faith. Obedience is not a work. It is not self-righteousness. It is a loving response to God. Jesus was holy. Jesus obeyed the Father. This did not make Jesus holy. We are holy, set apart unto God. We love God. We know God. We obey God (even if we do not obey perfectly, we are still in Him). Godless unbelief is unique and would be a reason for saying someone is not in Christ. Trying to understand all of the relevant verses relating to sanctification is not a denial of justification.

    After reading the book on 5 views of sanctification, it was apparent that the most extreme, divergent views on how much is of God and what is our response/responsibility, that all shared a common affirmation of the essentials of the faith. They are all brothers in Christ affirming justification by faith, yet the exact relationship between God's provision and our response to that provision is debatable in nuanced ways.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    At some point, would it be helpful to have a 3rd party moderator/opinion to give feedback for objectivity? Our subjectivity may prejudice us to fairly understanding each other?
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Registered User Sozo's Avatar
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    It is , in fact, you that twists the bible to preach your gospel of self-righteousness.

    You take ONE verse that teaches us to be saints in our behavior, and pervert it into holiness by obdeience.

    Here are all the verses that prove that true believers are holy through faith in Christ...

    "And if the first piece of dough be holy, the lump is also; and if the root be holy, the branches are too."

    "If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are."

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him."

    "And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach"

    "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light"

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    It would be helpful to have the references for context. None of the verses contradict my view and I freely quote them also. Some deal with God's intentions for us. He calls us to be holy, even as He is holy. This is consistent with an initial setting apart and an ongoing working of His life and character into our lives and character. You seem to ignore themes of growth and maturation and assume everything is automatic from minute one. We grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ until we are glorified. All believers are set apart at justification and are holy in Him, but not all believers are equally mature or reflect the character of Christ in every choice or moment of their Christian walk. This is why Romans 6 talks about yielding to spirit, instead of flesh, because some were yielding to their former way of life. Holiness is more than theoretical. We are to walk in the light as He is in the light. We are to put aside our former life in the power of the Spirit (how can you miss all these exhortations in the epistles?).

    My concern for practical Christian living and godly character (Peter talks about making every effort to add to these character qualities of faith, patience, etc.) is related to what it is to be holy , even as He is holy. I refuse to call sinful behavior holy because the Bible calls it unrighteousness. A comment about Christian growth should not be taken as self-righteousness, works salvation, false gospel, a denial of justification by faith.

    I think my assessment is on the right track, and I am being reasonable in dialogue. Thx for your self-control, but we are getting no where. I am still a 'pervert' in your mind.

    I despair of you seeing the light on 'sozo vs rulz' in my lifetime. If the Holy Spirit cannot convince you from the Word and my sharing my heart and beliefs (not all definitive or finalized), then I will wait for the blue moon with my breath held.

    Roger, Wilco, over and out.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    You can close this thread now. Nothing has changed.

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