What does it mean to be under the Law, Biblically?

jamie

jamie

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Untellectual said:
If the Law of God is the Law of Moses.
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The Law of Moses has no jurisdiction over Jesus Christ or us since we are one with him.

Paul explained to his Jewish brethren, "Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God." (Romans 7:4 NKJV)

Are you dead to the Jewish law?
 
Jacob

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PureX said:
That is my understanding as well. Which is why many things that Jesus said, as a Jew, to his fellow Jews, were not intended for the rest of us. A point that religious Christianity has thoroughly misunderstood, because it was originally founded by Jews. Jews who believed in religious laws, and blood sacrifices, and the need for atonement for sin. And these beliefs got tangled up with Jesus' message of spiritual transcendence. But I'm not Jewish, so I'm free to untangle them.
Christians don't need to "worship" any gods, necessarily. But Jesus revealed to us that to love God is to love our neighbor (and ourselves), just as to love our neighbor and ourselves is to love God. Because we are all manifestations of God. That was an astonishing revelation that transcended Jewish religious ideology so dramatically that he was killed for revealing it.
You're viewing this from a religious Jewish perspective. As do most Christians. But I do not. So for me this is not a theological proposition, it's a practical one.
I think you're grasp of Christianity is so entangled with Judaic theology that you can't understand, and probably won't even contemplate my non-Judaic view of Christianity.
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You are correct if you believe that Judaism and Christianity both have views of atonement.

As for if you should obey Jesus as a Gentile, I do not see why you would not.

If you mean you believe He was under the Law and you are not, then do you have faith in God and in Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins?

Gentiles were not born under the Law. But that does not mean we are to be without God's law when witnessing to those without law. We are under the law of Christ in such situation. That is, we share that we should bear one another's burdens. I believe it is in this way that we fulfill the law of love. That is, this is how we love our neighbor.
 
Jacob

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jamie said:
The new covenant is for the Hebrew people and will be enacted when Jesus manifests himself to the world.

Our covenant was made with Christ and Abraham a long time ago.
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I believe the new covenant in Jesus already is.
 
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Ben Masada

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jamie said:
We are not under the law, on the contrary we establish God's law through faith.

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. (Romans 3:31 NKJV)​

The law for us is provided in the NT.
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The only way to establish the Law is by living according to the Law. Faith itself without the Law is akin to a body without the breath of life which means that such a faith is dead. Read James 2:26)
 
Jacob

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Ben Masada said:
Condemned by the Law are only the outlaws aka those who refuse to be under the Law. Those who obey the Law are the Law-abiding-citizens aka those who are under the Law. The third nomination is to be above the Law which only HaShem is.
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No one is above the law. Some people think they are above the law because they know that they are not under it. Hopefully they are not escaping (that is, attempting to escape or avoid) God's commands and righteous decrees. If a person obeys God's Law, are they under it?
 
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Ben Masada

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Ktoyou said:
What does it mean to be under the Law, Biblically? It means to be Jewish. This is the most simple and factual meaning.
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Cal ha kavod! It is flattering to the Jews to hear but painful to Christians to read about such a definition, especially from the lips of another Christian. However, it is comfortable to know that there is always hope to do something about it if we want to set things right with the Lord so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow. All we need to do is to repent and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19) Although the dilemma will only continue, the further step to take is to join God's Covenant with His People according to Isaiah 56:1-8.
 
Jacob

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jamie said:
The Law of Moses has no jurisdiction over Jesus Christ or us since we are one with him.

Paul explained to his Jewish brethren, "Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God." (Romans 7:4 NKJV)

Are you dead to the Jewish law?
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That is an interesting question. What do you mean? Do you mean that I will not experience punishment according to Jewish law? Or, do you mean that I do not obey God's Law as Jewish law?

I do endeavor to obey God's Law. I am also a new covenant believer.

Do you, as a new covenant believer (I am assuming you are one, by your question), believe that you are not to obey Jewish law? If so, is it because you are not Jewish? Should Jewish people obey Jewish law?
 
jamie

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Untellectual said:
I believe the new covenant in Jesus already is.
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So you believe the Holy Spirit has been poured out on all Hebrews?

"And I will not hide My face from them anymore for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel," says the Lord GOD." (Ezekiel 39:29 NKJV)​
 
jamie

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Untellectual said:
Do you, as a new covenant believer (I am assuming you are one, by your question), believe that you are not to obey Jewish law? If so, is it because you are not Jewish? Should Jewish people obey Jewish law?
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No one today is able to obey the Law of Moses since there is no sanctuary and no Levitical priesthood extant.

Why kid yourself?
 
Jacob

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jamie said:
So you believe the Holy Spirit has been poured out on all Hebrews?

"And I will not hide My face from them anymore for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel," says the Lord GOD." (Ezekiel 39:29 NKJV)​
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You are asking about all Hebrews.

The following verse speaks of the Spirit of God being poured out. I believe it answers the question.

Acts 2:33 NASB - 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
 
Jacob

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jamie said:
No one today is able to obey the Law of Moses since there is no sanctuary and no Levitical priesthood extant.

Why kid yourself?
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There is more to the Law of Moses than sanctuary and Levitical priesthood.

I am a new covenant believer. I believe Yeshua to be the Messiah. I believe Jesus (same person, just not His Hebrew name) to be the Christ (means the same as Messiah).

The second temple was destroyed in AD 70.
 
PureX

PureX

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Untellectual said:
As for if you should obey Jesus as a Gentile, I do not see why you would not.
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I'm only pointing out that Jesus wasn't asking for our obedience. He was asking for our participation; in the Divine Spirit that infuses us all.
Untellectual said:
If you mean you believe He was under the Law and you are not, then do you have faith in God and in Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins?
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I have faith in the healing power of forgiveness. "Sin" is a Judaic theological contrivance.
Untellectual said:
We are under the law of Christ in such situation. That is, we share that we should bear one another's burdens. I believe it is in this way that we fulfill the law of love. That is, this is how we love our neighbor.
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We not only share each other's burdens, but each other's joys and accomplishments, too. Because, so as our neighbor goes, so too go we. And in their face (and ours) is the face of Christ (God's love made flesh).
 
Jacob

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PureX said:
I'm only pointing out that Jesus wasn't asking for our obedience. He was asking for our spiritual expression.
I have faith in the healing power of forgiveness. "Sin" is a Judaic theological contrivance.
We not only share each other's burdens, but each other's joys and accomplishments, too. Because, so as our neighbor goes, so too go we. And in their face (and ours) is the face of Christ (God's love made flesh).
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Would you consider yourself with or without God's law? I'm assuming this is asking about the Law of Moses, but we also know of the law of Christ which is not the same as being without the law of God.

The law of Christ is to bear one another's burdens. If we can do that, can we say that we have fulfilled the Law?

Do you know that no one's works will save them?

Sin is either missing the mark, or disobedience to God. Here we find that sin is transgression of the law.

Romans 4:15 KJV - 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.

Romans 5:20 NASB - 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

1 John 3:4 KJV - 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
 
PureX

PureX

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Untellectual said:
Would you consider yourself with or without God's law? I'm assuming this is asking about the Law of Moses, but we also know of the law of Christ which is not the same as being without the law of God.

The law of Christ is to bear one another's burdens. If we can do that, can we say that we have fulfilled the Law?

Do you know that no one's works will save them?

Sin is either missing the mark, or disobedience to God. Here we find that sin is transgression of the law.

Romans 4:15 KJV - 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.

Romans 5:20 NASB - 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

1 John 3:4 KJV - 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
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You are obsessed with this idea of divine law.

I recognize no divine laws but those being imposed and enforced by nature.

I recognize a divine spirit that manifests in my human experience of existence as love: forgiveness, kindness, generosity, and peace.
 
Jacob

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PureX said:
You are obsessed with this idea of divine law.

I recognize no divine laws but those being imposed and enforced by nature.

I recognize a divine spirit that manifests in my human experience of existence as love: forgiveness, kindness, generosity, and peace.
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Not divine law. No theory here. Just the law of God. I'm not obsessed. I just know that it shows the sinner to be guilty before a holy, righteous, and just God. The one true God.

Psalm 19:7 NASB - 7 The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:9-11 NASB - 9 How can a young man keep his way pure? By keeping it according to Your word. 10 With all my heart I have sought You; Do not let me wander from Your commandments. 11 Your word I have treasured in my heart, That I may not sin against You.
 
PureX

PureX

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Untellectual said:
Not divine law. No theory here. Just the law of God.
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The existence of God is theoretical (not proven). So, then, is the existence of "God's laws". I doubt your obsession with these will allow you to admit to this, however.
 
Jacob

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PureX said:
The existence of God is theoretical (not proven). So, then, is the existence of "God's laws". I doubt your obsession with these will allow you to admit to this, however.
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I understand some people hold to your view.

God is not a theory. Have you considered His Creation testifies to His existence?

As for God's Law, we can find it in the Bible.
 
jamie

jamie

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Untellectual said:
The following verse speaks of the Spirit of God being poured out. I believe it answers the question.

Acts 2:33 NASB - 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
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Acts 2:33 does not answer the question. Paul said, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” (Galatians 3:8 NKJV)

Blessed how?

..that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Galatians 3:14 NKJV)​

Not all Hebrews (including Jews) have received the promise of the Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ.
 
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