The UN demands the US pay Reparations

This almost makes me want to vote for Donald Trump. Almost. If only so that he could tell them where to shove their proposals.

A United Nations panel of experts has issued a wide-ranging and scathing account of the plight of black people in the United States, in the process urging American legislators to establish a body to consider the question of making reparations to the descendants of Africans who were brought to the US to toil as slaves.

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In addition to demanding that reparations be paid in the form of enhanced social services, etc. specifically targeted to black people (as though that weren't racist at all!), they also take issue with stand your ground laws and with US states that forbid convicted felons from voting.

They also take issue with law enforcement.

Hey, liberals, I have a better idea: you don't want people from a certain demographic to get shot? Encourage them not to commit violent crimes. Encourage them to avoid making others feel the need to invoke their basic right of self-defense.

You don't want black people to get barred from voting because they are felons? Encourage them to stop committing felony crimes.

I think we may as well send the UN a bill and get out.

Traditio said:

demanding that reparations be paid in the form of enhanced social services, etc. specifically targeted to black people (as though that weren't racist at all!),

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I think this might be justified; for all those black people who can trace their ancestors back to slavery.

Eric h said:

I think this might be justified; for all those black people who can trace their ancestors back to slavery.

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Do you have a coherent argument for this?

Traditio said:

Do you have a coherent argument for this?

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I am not sure why you would want to argue that slavery was morally right. Black people were still fighting for equal rights in the 1960's, Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King come to mind. I can't imagine why a democratic country would even think; segregating bus seats was justifiable.

As long as they call for the British, Portuguese, Dutch, French and Spanish slave traders to pay reparations, African tribes that kidnapped and sold other tribes to pay reparations, and South America and the Caribbean to also pay reparations, as they had many more slaves than North America, then they might have a case.

Eric h said:

I am not sure why you would want to argue that slavery was morally right. Black people were still fighting for equal rights in the 1960's, Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King come to mind. I can't imagine why a democratic country would even think; segregating bus seats was justifiable.

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How on earth do you get that anyone is arguing that slavery was morally right?? Miss the point much?

Traditio said:

Do you have a coherent argument for this?

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If your father had made a fortune illegally imprisoning others and forcing them to work, and then you inherited that ill-gotten wealth, would the heirs of those people forced to work not have a case against his estate for at least the amount that it profited you and your family?

This country was built with slave labor, and while the slaves may have been freed, the labor was never paid for in any form. Shouldn't we at least try?

rexlunae said:

If your father had made a fortune illegally imprisoning others and forcing them to work, and then you inherited that ill-gotten wealth, would the heirs of those people forced to work not have a case against his estate for at least the amount that it profited you and your family?

This country was built with slave labor, and while the slaves may have been freed, the labor was never paid for in any form. Shouldn't we at least try?

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1. There were black slave owners (some of whom very well could have "owned" white indentured servants...perhaps even white slaves from Ireland, so reveals a cursory google search).

2. Many white people in this country arrived after the abolition of slavery, nor were all white people slave owners. [The vast majority weren't, in fact.]

3. There are already (unfair, I think) laws and institutions in place which favor black people (affirmative action comes to mind).

4. Many people have been enslaved (or subject to similar conditions), and nobody is calling for their reparations. Serfs in the middle ages come to mind.

5. White traders were not solely responsible for the importing of black people. Brewmama makes this point above in her own posting.

The problem I have with this is that the claim is that white people collectively are in debt to black people collectively. I don't care what the reasoning is. It just strikes me as prima facie absurd.

Not to mention that it's "ancient history" at this point. Slavery ended roughly 150 years ago.

Black people: get over it.

Not to mention, RexLunae, that in my opinion, the sheer privilege of living in the United States should be quite sufficient "reparation" for these people. Their ancestors were taken from Africa and were provided food, lodging, etc., and, in turn, their descendants (i.e., the black people of today) DON'T live in Africa.

If black people want reparations so badly, then I propose:

Why don't we make it like slavery never happened for these black people? Let's relocate them back to Africa!

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Oh...

Black people here don't want to live in Kenya?

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They don't want to live in Somalia?

Then, again, I say to black people: shut up.

Further point, RexLunae:

Your point about, e.g., suing me because my father owned slaves and I received an inheritance based on slavery...

It just doesn't work. Again, slavery was roughly 150 years ago. Let us suppose that we restrict the "defendants," so to speak, in this "reparations case" to descendants of actual slave owners. How do we assess their actual profit from slavery? Wealth can be gained or lost over several generations. Let us suppose one of these descendants is a millionaire. How do you prove that he's a millionaire because of slavery?

Let's suppose that the descendant is dirt poor. What does he owe? Why should he owe anything?

And how do you assess the actual damages with respect to the current ancestors of slaves? How can you prove that a given black person is economically better or worse well off because of slavery?

That's one of the problems of dredging up ancient history.

Again, your point is just silly, RexLunae, and to all black people, I say:

Why don't you go cry a river, build a bridge and then get over it?

Traditio said:

1. There were black slave owners.

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So? That makes no difference.

Traditio said:

2. Many white people in this country arrived after the abolition of slavery, nor were all white people slave owners. [Most weren't, in fact.]

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At the very least, the entire country has benefited from slave labor. The capital was built with slave labor. Slaves have worked in the White House. Black soldiers were paid less than white soldiers, and even after World War II, federal funds were used to build deliberately, explicitly segregated neighborhoods.

Traditio said:

3. There are already (unfair, I think) laws and institutions in place which favor black people (affirmative action comes to mind).

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How about just a proposal to study slavery and its effects and what could be done about it?

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hr40/text

Traditio said:

4. Many people have been enslaved (or subject to similar conditions), and nobody is calling for their reparations. Serfs in the middle ages come to mind.

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Different people, different time, different call for justice.

Traditio said:

5. White traders were not solely responsible for the importing of black people. Brewmama makes this point above in her own posting.

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So, if they weren't 100% responsible, they should bear none of the responsibility?

Traditio said:

The problem I have with this is that the claim is that white people collectively are in debt to black people collectively. I don't care what the reasoning is. It just strikes me as prima facie absurd.

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Nearly every person is effected by social inequality in some way, either adversely or not, and when that inequality results from crimes, it seems only fair to try to cancel the impact.

Traditio said:

Not to mention that it's "ancient history" at this point.

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Said no black person ever.

There are people alive today who grew up in segregation designed to keep black people from achieving full equality. If that's ancient history, you have an awfully short memory.

Traditio said:

Slavery ended roughly 150 years ago.

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Yes. It went on longer than it's been abolished.

Traditio said:

Black people: get over it.

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You have no right to demand that.

rexlunae said:

So? That makes no difference.

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Yes, it does. According to the analogy that you gave, that means that at least some black people should owe reparations, not just white people.

At the very least, the entire country has benefited from slave labor.

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Therefore black people have benefited from slave labor. No reparations necessary!

The capital was built with slave labor.

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And guess who's currently living in the white house?

Black soldiers were paid less than white soldiers, and even after World War II, federal funds were used to build deliberately, explicitly segregated neighborhoods.

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I was under the impression we were talking about slavery?

By this reasoning, pretty much everyone is owed reparations because pretty much everyone has faced some kind of unequal treatment at some point.

How about just a proposal to study slavery and its effects and what could be done about it?

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Nothing should be done about it. It's ancient history.

Different people, different time, different call for justice.

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That's not an answer. That's a cop-out. You're just shrugging your shoulders and saying: "Don't care."

So, if they weren't 100% responsible, they should bear none of the responsibility?

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1. Yes. It's unfair to insist that only one responsible party bear responsible when multiple parties were just as, if not more, responsible for the same thing.

2. Furthermore, people who were not responsible at all should bear, surprise, none of the responsibility. No living person today was responsible. Therefore, none should bear the responsibility.

Nearly every person is effected by social inequality in some way, either adversely or not, and when that inequality results from crimes, it seems only fair to try to cancel the impact.

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That's not true. Squatting/homesteading comes to mind.

Furthermore, at the time, slavery was legal. [Thus, your point about "resulting from crimes" simply isn't to the point.]

If abortion becomes illegal tomorrow, should the persons who have benefited from abortion have to pay some kind of penalty? If you say "yes," then what about 150 years from now?

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At any rate, Rexlunae, my basic point remains:

The vast majority of white people, even when slavery was legal, did not own slaves. Of the descendants of actual slave owners, the actual benefit of slavery to those descendants is practically impossible (or, at least, very difficult) to determine.

It's simply unjust to demand reparations this late in the game. I don't owe black people a bloody thing.

Traditio said:

Not to mention, RexLunae, that in my opinion, the sheer privilege of living in the United States should be quite sufficient "reparation" for these people.

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There have been some dumb things said on TOL. But this is near the top.

Traditio said:

Their ancestors were taken from Africa and were provided food, lodging, etc., and, in turn, their descendants (i.e., the black people of today) DON'T live in Africa.

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They weren't provided anything. They were worked, as long and as hard as their masters wanted, and fed so that they could do it again the next day. The masters kept their slaves alive because they didn't want to lose their slaves.

Traditio said:

If black people want reparations so badly, then I propose:

Why don't we make it like slavery never happened for these black people? Let's relocate them back to Africa!

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That was tried. Seemed so logical to some misguided fools. But, as it turns out, when you spend generations erasing the culture of a group of people, they can't just go back to it. And anyway, they of all people have at least earned the right to live here in this land that we forced them to build for our benefit. If anyone should relocate from it, it should be the white people.

Traditio said:

Oh...

Black people here don't want to live in Kenya?

...

They don't want to live in Somalia?

Then, again, I say to black people: shut up.

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Why don't you go back to England, or Scotland, or wherever your ancestors are from?

rexlunae said:

Why don't you go back to England, or Scotland, or wherever you're ancestors are from?

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I'm not the one demanding reparations (i.e., explicit unequal treatment in my favor) based on my race, ethnicity or former national origin.

Furthermore, RexLunae, with respect to your comment about how the entire country has profited from slave labor, why don't we talk about how much this entire country has been impacted negatively by black people?

The hip hop culture comes to mind.

The soaring criminality rates of black people come to mind.

The apparent inability of many black people to speak proper English comes to mind.

Rampant welfare fraud among black people comes to mind.

Should I go on?

You talk about how much [some] black people have benefited us.

Why don't we talk about the social cost of black people since then?

Why don't we start by adding up all of the tax dollars spent on welfare on black people?

And then we can go on by listing all of the daily inconveniences that we've all had to deal with at the hands of a lazy, self-absorbed black cashier or government employee, of a black person who refuses to turn his stereo down in the parking lot, and forces all of us to endure having to listen to his so-called "music"...need I go on?

And then we can start talking about the collective cost of black people in terms of the plummeting of home retail values, and talk about the various neighborhoods and cities that have veritably gone down the toilet because of them.

Perhaps we can discuss the diminished value of theater tickets, for all of us who have gone to movies at which the black people simply would not shut up and watch the bloody movie.

Maybe we are owed reparations. I don't know.

Black people really want to play this game?

Look Trad, I don't think you're serious about having this conversation. The whole point of Conyers' legislation is to study the problem and determine what can be done. It's likely that the solution couldn't be broken down to the level of individual responsibility, so the proposals would have to focus on large, systemic, societal injustices, the sorts of things that you're going to deny up and down anyway. So I'm inclined to just leave it be, and tell you that you can probably rest assured that nothing will be done any time soon, even if it should be.

rexlunae said:

The whole point of Conyers' legislation is to study the problem and determine what can be done.

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This presupposes that there is a problem. I deny that.

It's likely that the solution couldn't be broken down to the level of individual responsibility...

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Because we can't determine who should be the particular plaintiffs and who are the particular defendants, we'll make ALL BLACK PEOPLE the plaintiffs and THE ENTIRE COUNTRY the defendants?

Fantastic.

Traditio said:

This presupposes that there is a problem. I deny that.

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Yeah, here's the thing. I can tell, from the rate at which you are posting responses, and additional thoughts, that you're really excited to share your position on this issue. You're practically begging someone to help you show it off. I post one thing, and you post three things a few minutes apart. But your depth of thought on the subject is minimal. So I think that trying to talk to you about it would be very tiring, and also completely fruitless. Frankly, you haven't said anything new or interesting about it, and I doubt that you have the patience to stop and consider my points with the kind of deliberation that would be required.

Traditio said:

Because we can't determine who should be the particular plaintiffs and who are the particular defendants, we'll make ALL BLACK PEOPLE the plaintiffs and THE ENTIRE COUNTRY the defendants?

Fantastic.

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The alternative is to allow a mass injustice to persist for another generation, maybe forever because we aren't willing to give it much thought.

Last but not least, RexLunae, may I point out that pretty much your entire line of argumentation for this is...

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wait for it...

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RACIST! :sozo: