Do Humans Deserve To Suffer?

PureX

PureX

Well-known member
There has been some discussion as of late about the idea of 'deservedness'. Apart from the nonsensical debate about women deserving to be raped because they behaved too enticingly, or whatever, I'm more interested in the question of deservedness, generally: theologically, and philosophically.

Do we humans deserve to suffer simply because we are human?

If so, why?

If not, why not?

Is there any question in your mind about the validity of suffering? By this I mean is there a difference between the suffering of some, and the suffering of others? Is there 'valid' and 'invalid' suffering? Or insignificant degrees of suffering?

Is self-inflicted suffering valid suffering?

Is suffering due to one's own grandiosity or melodrama valid suffering?

Is suffering proscribed to us by others as punishment for our crimes or sins valid suffering?

Also, is causing suffering to those who have caused others to suffer a valid response to suffering? By what justification?

Human suffering is a complicated and often difficult subject to tackle, and so is the idea of "deservedness". But I find them very interesting when coupled together, and welcome any and all thoughts on the subject.
 
B

bybee

New member
PureX said:
There has been some discussion as of late about the idea of 'deservedness'. Apart from the nonsensical debate about women deserving to be raped because they behaved too enticingly, or whatever, I'm more interested in the question of deservedness, generally: theologically, and philosophically.

Do we humans deserve to suffer simply because we are human?

If so, why?

If not, why not?

Is there any question in your mind about the validity of suffering? By this I mean is there a difference between the suffering of some, and the suffering of others? Is there 'valid' and 'invalid' suffering? Or insignificant degrees of suffering?

Is self-inflicted suffering valid suffering?

Is suffering due to one's own grandiosity or melodrama valid suffering?

Is suffering proscribed to us by others as punishment for our crimes or sins valid suffering?

Also, is causing suffering to those who have caused others to suffer a valid response to suffering? By what justification?

Human suffering is a complicated and often difficult subject to tackle, and so is the idea of "deservedness". But I find them very interesting when coupled together, and welcome any and all thoughts on the subject.
Click to expand...

We are endowed with our sensory apparatus which helps us navigate our environment. In the navigating, we make mistakes, some costly others not. We also run up against other organisms, some friendly, some not. Accidents happen, some through ignorance, some through foolishness, some through foolhardiness and others through the thoughtlessness and/or cruelty of others.
There is also a subjective component to suffering. I cannot tolerate narcotics, so, when I have had surgery, post op I have to suffer the pain of surgery without benefit of pain relief because the narcotic side effects are worse than the pain of surgery.
There is social suffering from being left out of a place one would like to be. There is suffering when one doesn't win the prize one has worked for.
To be alive is to suffer whenever equilibrium is breeched.
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

New member
PureX said:
Do we humans deserve to suffer simply because we are human?
Click to expand...
No.

Now if your question is whether we deserve to suffer because we choose to act contrary to God's Law, that would get a different answer.


Ezra 9:13-14
13 And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our iniquities deserve, and hast given us such deliverance as this;
14 Should we again break thy commandments, and join in affinity with the people of these abominations? wouldest not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us, so that there should be no remnant nor escaping?​

 
PureX

PureX

Well-known member
bybee said:
We are endowed with our sensory apparatus which helps us navigate our environment. In the navigating, we make mistakes, some costly others not. We also run up against other organisms, some friendly, some not. Accidents happen, some through ignorance, some through foolishness, some through foolhardiness and others through the thoughtlessness and/or cruelty of others.
There is also a subjective component to suffering. I cannot tolerate narcotics, so, when I have had surgery, post op I have to suffer the pain of surgery without benefit of pain relief because the narcotic side effects are worse than the pain of surgery.
There is social suffering from being left out of a place one would like to be. There is suffering when one doesn't win the prize one has worked for.
To be alive is to suffer whenever equilibrium is breeched.
Click to expand...
I agree with all of these observations, but what do they tell/teach us about suffering, and particularly about our 'deserving' to suffer? Do you recognize any idealogical imperatives that help you determine the 'deservedness' of human suffering?

Also, I'm curious, have you found that your own suffering is increased or decreased via your attitude toward it?

(I know it's a lot of questions, but I'm interested in this subject, and it's not a common subject on TOL.)
 
PureX

PureX

Well-known member
genuineoriginal said:
No.

Now if your question is whether we deserve to suffer because we choose to act contrary to God's Law, that would get a different answer.
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But isn't acting contrary to perfection (God's law) an innately human thing to do? How could we have acted otherwise? Do humans deserve to be punished (made to suffer) for doing what it's in our nature to do?

Before I can accept your hypothesis, you need to deal with the problem of God expecting perfection from human beings that cannot possibly deliver it.
 
ttruscott

ttruscott

Well-known member
PureX said:
Do we humans deserve to suffer simply because we are human?
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No innocent suffers.
To suffer or die proves sinfulness.
All humans are born as sinners so all are born to suffer and die.

Is self-inflicted suffering valid suffering?
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No, this is the first lesson about redemption ever taught. GOD rejected Adam and Eve's fig leaf aprons which have long been accepted to have caused quite a bit of itch and pain and gave them skin coats, the righteous acts preordained by GOD for them to do.

Is suffering proscribed to us by others as punishment for our crimes or sins valid suffering?
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There is no suffering at all except for that. All suffering is a judgment upon sin EXCEPT the man born blind whose blindness, obviously a cause of suffering, was not attributable to sin but to allow GOD's glory to be seen when he was healed since the Jews believed that healing a man born blind was one of the miracles only the Messiah could perform. I shall thank him for doing this tough job when I see him next.
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

New member
PureX said:
But isn't acting contrary to perfection (God's law) an innately human thing to do?
Click to expand...
No.
PureX said:
How could we have acted otherwise?
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Romans 6:16
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?​


PureX said:
Do humans deserve to be punished (made to suffer) for doing what it's in our nature to do?
Click to expand...
It is not our nature to do evil, we have the free will choice in whether we will do evil or good.

PureX said:
Before I can accept your hypothesis, you need to deal with the problem of God expecting perfection from human beings that cannot possibly deliver it.
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The problem is your misunderstanding of what God expects from human beings.
If God expected perfection, He would not have established a sacrifice for sin.
 
B

bybee

New member
PureX said:
I agree with all of these observations, but what do they tell/teach us about suffering, and particularly about our 'deserving' to suffer? Do you recognize any idealogical imperatives that help you determine the 'deservedness' of human suffering?

Also, I'm curious, have you found that your own suffering is increased or decreased via your attitude toward it?

(I know it's a lot of questions, but I'm interested in this subject, and it's not a common subject on TOL.)
Click to expand...

"Deserving" also has a large subjective component. If I touch a hot stove I shall be burned, cause and effect. If someone tries to hold my hand to a fire to punish me, it is a personal decision on their part. Punishment that is a lesson learned makes sense to me, such as loss of privileges and temporary isolation. But punishment just because
someone decides that suffering is the only response is scary to me.
My own suffering has made me empathetic to others who suffer. I prefer to help people make things better, yet, when training my children, there were times when withholding privileges, voicing my disapproval and unhappiness and or isolation for a time were punishments which I felt had to be instituted.
 
ok doser

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
no

we humans do not deserve anything bad that happens to us, no matter how much our actions or choices or behaviors may have led us into positions where unpleasant consequences were inevitable

we should have the right to do whatever we want without anything bad happening to us

otherwise, life just isn't fair
 
patrick jane

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
ok doser said:
no

we humans do not deserve anything bad that happens to us, no matter how much our actions or choices or behaviors may have led us into positions where unpleasant consequences were inevitable

we should have the right to do whatever we want without anything bad happening to us

otherwise, life just isn't fair
Click to expand...

:chuckle: :devil:
 
Nanja

Nanja

Well-known member
According to scripture, humans deserve nothing apart from what God Wills for them Dan. 4:35.

~~~~~
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
PureX said:
But isn't acting contrary to perfection (God's law) an innately human thing to do? How could we have acted otherwise? Do humans deserve to be punished (made to suffer) for doing what it's in our nature to do?

Before I can accept your hypothesis, you need to deal with the problem of God expecting perfection from human beings that cannot possibly deliver it.
Click to expand...

God doesn't expect perfection, any more than we expect perfection from our children. God's desire is that we turn to Him and trust in Him. Suffering is allowed by God for those greater purposes.

God is concerned about eternity, and this time on earth is our training ground...where the tares are separated from the wheat and where we grow and mature until the harvest.

Suffering is always for our benefit. For the unsaved, suffering causes them to look to God for mercy. It causes them to realize "something is wrong"....because we were created to be in fellowship with God. Suffering brings people to Christ. For the saved, suffering causes us to trust in God and conforms us into the image of the Son.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
genuineoriginal said:
No.

Now if your question is whether we deserve to suffer because we choose to act contrary to God's Law, that would get a different answer.


Ezra 9:13-14
13 And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our iniquities deserve, and hast given us such deliverance as this;
14 Should we again break thy commandments, and join in affinity with the people of these abominations? wouldest not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us, so that there should be no remnant nor escaping?​

Click to expand...

Indeed, reaping what we sow causes a great deal of suffering, and the purpose of God is that we come to realize that something is missing in our lives. When we're brought to our knees, we have no where to look but up.
 
PureX

PureX

Well-known member
genuineoriginal said:
It is not our nature to do evil, we have the free will choice in whether we will do evil or good.
Click to expand...
Our free will does us little good when we don't know what good or evil is in most instances. Yet you presume that God is holding us responsible for what we do not and cannot know. I don't buy it.
genuineoriginal said:
The problem is your misunderstanding of what God expects from human beings.
If God expected perfection, He would not have established a sacrifice for sin.
Click to expand...
If God had not expected perfection (according to you), He would not have needed a 'sacrifice for sin'.
 
PureX

PureX

Well-known member
bybee said:
"Deserving" also has a large subjective component. If I touch a hot stove I shall be burned, cause and effect. If someone tries to hold my hand to a fire to punish me, it is a personal decision on their part. Punishment that is a lesson learned makes sense to me, such as loss of privileges and temporary isolation. But punishment just because
someone decides that suffering is the only response is scary to me.
My own suffering has made me empathetic to others who suffer. I prefer to help people make things better, yet, when training my children, there were times when withholding privileges, voicing my disapproval and unhappiness and or isolation for a time were punishments which I felt had to be instituted.
Click to expand...
It's a complicated business.

Why do we want to cause others to suffer in response to our own suffering, do you think?

Why do we ignore the suffering of others so long as their suffering does not cause us to suffer?

How do we decide when the suffering of others is "deserved", so that we can feel we are right to allow it to continue?
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

New member
PureX said:
Our free will does us little good when we don't know what good or evil is in most instances.
Click to expand...
That is a poor excuse, since most of us know what good and evil is in almost every instance.

Romans 2:13-15
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )​


PureX said:
Yet you presume that God is holding us responsible for what we do not and cannot know.
Click to expand...
No, that is your presumption, not mine.

Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​


PureX said:
I don't buy it.
Click to expand...
Then stop trying to sell it.

PureX said:
If God had not expected perfection (according to you), He would not have needed a 'sacrifice for sin'.
Click to expand...
You have that backwards.
God does not expect perfection.
He implemented the "sacrifice for sin" because He expects imperfection.
If God did expect perfection, He would have just executed judgment on all that failed to meet up with His supposed standard of perfection.
But, God does not expect perfection, so He implemented the "sacrifice for sin" in order to provide a way for sinners to come back into right standing with Him.

If you believe otherwise, maybe you can share why you think that way.
 
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