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Thread: One on One: Knight and Lonster open up the settled view.

  1. #121
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonster
    Let me ask rhetorically, in the past did I have freewill? "Yes." Okay, Can I go back and change my past decision? "No." How then can you say I had freewill in the past if I cannot go back and change it? It gets confusing, but I see foreknowledge confusion almost exactly the same.
    Oui vei.... the settled view eats brains.

    Look out!!!! here comes the settled view and its about to eat your brain!!!!! It already got Lonster!

    Where to start..... where to start....
    God knew that Ninevah would repent (SV perspective), but Ninevah didn't know it would repent. So how does God get Ninevah to repent? He sends a prophet. Could Ninevah have not repented? I don't think so, but it isn't primarily because of God's determinism as it was the Ninevites determinism. And this again is where it gets a bit convoluted. God knew the Ninevites would repent, based on foreknowlege of 'their' decision. So could they have not repented? No. But does this negate their freewill? Yes/no. They negate their own freewill. How? Because once a decision is made, our past is determined and their is no going back. "How does this work with future contingency?"
    If what you just said is true, God flat out lied when He said... “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”

    You cant get around that.

    Moving on....

    You say....
    Let me ask rhetorically, in the past did I have freewill? "Yes."
    Why say "YES" when you believe "NO"?

    you continue...
    Okay, Can I go back and change my past decision? "No."
    That's because the past is settled.

    How then can you say I had freewill in the past if I cannot go back and change it?
    The past is altogether different from the future! The past is settled the future isn't, its actually very simple, unless of course your brain has been eaten by the settled view, then it's dreadfully confusing.

    It gets confusing, but I see foreknowledge confusion almost exactly the same.
    See what I mean?

    WARNING WARNING WARNING - HARSH REBUKE AHEAD

    Lonster, I like you. You seem to be a neat fella. Yet the settled view has turned you into a complete fool. If you don't shed this asinine settled view you will spend the rest of your life answering "YES and NO" to questions that can only be answered one way or the other. You will spend the rest of your life giving examples of simple foreknowledge (like your wife) and try to make the case that this proves EXHAUSTIVE foreknowledge doesn't remove freewill. You will spend the rest of your life saying men DO have freewill and then saying (a moment later) that men DON'T have freewill.

    As for me....

    - I treasure taking God's word at face value.
    - I relish being logically consistent
    - I love being able to give straight answers to straight questions
    - I dislike theological parlor tricks
    - I hate when theology causes smart people to say dumb things
    - I get discouraged when people value a theological concept higher than God's own words.

    Don't be a victim! Don't let the settled view monster fill his stomach on your grey matter. Run!!! Run while you still can!

    Last edited by Knight; March 8th, 2007 at 02:25 PM.
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  2. #122
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Lonster you stated......
    God knew the Ninevites would repent, based on foreknowlege of 'their' decision. So could they have not repented? No.
    I have two questions, please answer them as direct as possible......

    1. Why do you believe the Ninevites had no choice but to repent? What force or mechanism was compelling their choice?


    2. How much time before the event took place do you believe "God knew the Ninevites would repent"?

    A.) The time directly surrounding the event i.e., hours, days etc.
    B.) A long time leading up to the event i.e., years, decades etc.
    C.) A millennia before the event ever occurred i.e., God eternally knew beforehand that the event would take place and that the Ninevites would repent.
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  3. #123
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Oui vei.... the settled view eats brains.

    Look out!!!! here comes the settled view and its about to eat your brain!!!!! It already got Lonster!

    Where to start..... where to start....If what you just said is true, God flat out lied when He said... “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”

    You cant get around that.

    Moving on....

    You say....Why say "YES" when you believe "NO"?

    you continue...That's because the past is settled.

    The past is altogether different from the future! The past is settled the future isn't, its actually very simple, unless of course your brain has been eaten by the settled view, then it's dreadfully confusing.

    See what I mean?

    WARNING WARNING WARNING - HARSH REBUKE AHEAD

    Lonster, I like you. You seem to be a neat fella. Yet the settled view has turned you into a complete fool. If you don't shed this asinine settled view you will spend the rest of your life answering "YES and NO" to questions that can only be answered one way or the other. You will spend the rest of your life giving examples of simple foreknowledge (like your wife) and try to make the case that this proves EXHAUSTIVE foreknowledge doesn't remove freewill. You will spend the rest of your life saying men DO have freewill and then saying (a moment later) that men DON'T have freewill.

    As for me....

    - I treasure taking God's word at face value.
    - I relish being logically consistent
    - I love being able to give straight answers to straight questions
    - I dislike theological parlor tricks
    - I hate when theology causes smart people to say dumb things
    - I get discouraged when people value a theological concept higher than God's own words.

    Don't be a victim! Don't let the settled view monster fill his stomach on your grey matter. Run!!! Run while you still can!

    LOL, I don't know where to even begin. I've done at least a reasonable job on this thread, but I respect that your lenses actually block the logic from the other view (mine do that with OV also).
    I appreciate you too, but possibly we're done, but I'll try and pick up with the next post.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  4. #124
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Lonster you stated......I have two questions, please answer them as direct as possible......

    1. Why do you believe the Ninevites had no choice but to repent? What force or mechanism was compelling their choice?


    2. How much time before the event took place do you believe "God knew the Ninevites would repent"?

    A.) The time directly surrounding the event i.e., hours, days etc.
    B.) A long time leading up to the event i.e., years, decades etc.
    C.) A millennia before the event ever occurred i.e., God eternally knew beforehand that the event would take place and that the Ninevites would repent.
    1. I'm sure you've philosophized somewhat on time considerations. Scientists and philosophers are still arguing about these things. The reason I have no choice today on what to wear is because I picked out my clothes yesterday. (Could I now choose differently? Technically yes, but really honestly, no. Why? Because I don't care to make the choice today. I made it last night when I laid my clothes out. I appreciate you want to nail this down, but because of contingency after contingency I don't believe you can 'nail' down either position with a doctrine. It is just not done. Time factors cannot be nailed down like this when we are talking about things we cannot do (OV nails it down, but I don't think it answers theological questions any better for it). Can God do them? Yes, even OV agrees somewhat to this. Did the Ninevites have a choice?

    Yes/No I'm sorry it troubles you, but it isn't brain matter loss, but a deep seated trust in saying that I personally do not have to answer the unanswerable (time and especially the future always causes this, I don't throw out all 'future thinking' just because it is difficult). Logic, rationality and brilliant intellect only take us so far, especially with future time. I refuse to constrain God to my mind's box (especially where 'time' is concerned).

    Here, let me put it another way: My dad used to catch us. We'd run and jump into his arms no questions asked. I didn't think about 'can he catch me? is this the right height? If I am too high could I get hurt." My dad knew what he was capable of and I trusted him. That's all I needed.

    In some of the questions that are bothersome to you, I think the answer is the same. I don't have to understand all the mechanisms (what I do know makes sense to me). I'm not deeply troubled by OV because God is big enough. You can analyze as much as you like, and it leads to good discussion, but what I hoped this discussion would do, is broaden perspective and appreciation for who God is. He's big enough. Even if I didn't have much knowledge, a blind leap isn't a bad thing if you really trust Him. There are people who don't even get into these discussions and do so rightly(some people never cross over in intellectual capacity to appreciate metaphysical and logic questions fully). The story of Mary and Martha comes to mind. Mary chose the better thing.

    2. I don't know. Does it matter at all? It is just a perception and a theological truth of expression. I think it is reasonable and it makes 'sense' to me.

    Okay, if you think I'm killing off grey matter, I at least understand your perception. I think you are wrong, but I understand it.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  5. #125
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Thanks Lonster.

    YES or NO QUESTION: Am I gonna close this thread?
    Knight's "Lonster type answer": Yes and No. It's really all just perception anyway isn't it?
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