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Thread: One on One: Knight and Lonster open up the settled view.

  1. #31
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonster
    Do you see His question as rhetorical/accusative or as a perplexing dilemma here? My answer is that it is rhetoric for the obvious and it's purpose is reflective for their self analysis. In other words, God knew the anwer but was elliciting a response.
    In Isaiah 5 God twice says He "expected" good grapes.

    Yet you are saying He didn't "expect" good grapes?

    Furthermore.... rhetorical questions are generally in question format.

    Does this REALLY look like a rhetorical question to you?
    "So He expected it to bring forth good grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes."

    Not only is it not a rhetorical question, it's not even a question.

    The next verse after should clear that up I believe.
    How so????
    Isaiah 5:5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned; And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
    God is simply saying that because Israel disobeyed (when He expected them to obey) He is now going to punish them for their disobedience. How does that help your argument? (now that my friend is a rhetorical question)

    Sorry Lonster, It's very clear your explanation strikes out on all counts.
    Last edited by Knight; February 8th, 2007 at 11:58 AM.
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  2. #32
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonster
    He does not relent
    Quote Originally Posted by God
    Gen 6:4-9 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. 5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord repented [it repented the LORD] that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I repent that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. 9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.

    Ex 32:9-14 And the Lord said to Moses, I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation. 11 Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God, and said: Lord, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, `He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever. 14 So the Lord repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

    Jud 2:18 And when the Lord raised up judges for them, the Lord was with the judge and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for the Lord repented because of their groaning because of those who oppressed them and harassed them.

    1 Sa 15:11,29,35 I repent that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments. And it grieved Samuel, and he cried out to the Lord all night. 29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent. For He is not a man, that He should repent. 35 And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the Lord repented that He had made Saul king over Israel.

    2 Sa 24:16And when the angel stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented from the destruction, and said to the angel who was destroying the people, It is enough; now restrain your hand.

    1 Chr 21:1,15 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 15 And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying, the Lord looked and repented of the disaster, and said to the angel who was destroying, It is enough; now restrain your hand. And the angel of the Lord stood by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.
    Psa 90:13 Return, O Lord! How long? And [repent concerning] Your servants.

    Psa 106:45 And for their sake He remembered His covenant and repented according to the multitude of His mercies.

    Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn and the heavens above be black because I have spoken. I have purposed and will not repent, nor will I turn back from it.

    Jer 15:6 You have forsaken Me, says the Lord, You have gone backward. Therefore I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am weary of repenting!

    Jer 18:7-10 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

    Jer 20:16 And let that man be like the cities which the Lord overthrew, and did not repent; Let him hear the cry in the morning and the shouting at noon.

    Jer 26:3,13,19 Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may repent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings. 13 Now therefore, amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God; then the Lord will repent concerning the doom that He has pronounced against you. 19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah ever put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and seek the Lords favor? And the Lord repented concerning the doom which He had pronounced against them. But we are doing great evil against ourselves.

    Jer 42:10 If you will still remain in this land, then I will build you and not pull you down, and I will plant you and not pluck you up. For I repent concerning the disaster that I have brought upon you.

    Eze 24:14 I, the Lord, have spoken it; It shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not hold back, Nor will I spare, Nor will I repent; According to your ways and according to your deeds they will judge you, says the Lord God.

    Joel 2:13,14 So rend your heart, and not your garments; Return to the Lord your God, For He is gracious and merciful, Slow to anger, and of great kindness; And He repents from doing harm. 14 Who knows if He will turn and repent, and leave a blessing behind Him – A grain offering and a drink offering for the Lord your God?

    Amos 7:3-6 So the Lord repented concerning this. It shall not be, said the Lord. 4 Thus the Lord God showed me: Behold, the Lord God called for conflict by fire, and it consumed the great deep and devoured the territory. 5 Then I said: O Lord God, cease, I pray! Oh, that Jacob may stand, For he is small! 6 So the Lord repented concerning this. This also shall not be, said the Lord God.

    Jon 3:9-4:2 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish? 10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it. 4:1 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. 2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who repents from doing harm.

    Zec 8:14,15 For thus says the Lord of hosts: Just as I determined to punish you when your fathers provoked Me to wrath, says the Lord of hosts, and I would not repent, 15 so again in these days I am determined to do good to Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
    Hmmmmm one of the two of you must be right.

    God? Or Lonster?
    God? Or Lonster?
    God? Or Lonster?
    God? Or Lonster?

    This is a toughy.
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  3. #33
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Hmmmmm one of the two of you must be right.

    God? Or Lonster?
    God? Or Lonster?
    God? Or Lonster?
    God? Or Lonster?

    This is a toughy.
    It is a toughy

    Relent:verb (used without object) 1. to soften in feeling, temper, or determination; become more mild, compassionate, or forgiving.
    2. to become less severe; slacken: The winds relented.
    –verb (used with object) 3. Obsolete. to cause to soften in feeling, temper, or determination.
    4. Obsolete. to cause to slacken; abate.
    5. Obsolete. to abandon; relinquish.

    Repent:–verb (used without object) 1. to feel sorry, self-reproachful, or contrite for past conduct; regret or be conscience-stricken about a past action, attitude, etc. (often fol. by of): He repented after his thoughtless act.
    2. to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one's life for the better; be penitent.
    –verb (used with object) 3. to remember or regard with self-reproach or contrition: to repent one's injustice to another.
    4. to feel sorry for; regret: to repent an imprudent act.


    We perceive our disagreement here, how far do we want to take this? Can there be any agreement from our perspectives? Battle Royale already did a fair case on this so I wouldn't want to just repeat the same things that would just double up our understandings, but what I would like us to do is appreciate our positions. We come at this understanding One emphasizing God's transcendence and the other emphasizing His relation. The apparent illogic, is taken care of by an OV, but the SV says that any understanding of God's omniscience is always going to be in question logically because of it's very transcendence. We desperately need meaning just to meet minds or this continues to be chat past one another. Thoughts?

  4. #34
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    In Isaiah 5 God twice says He "expected" good grapes.

    Yet you are saying He didn't "expect" good grapes?

    Furthermore.... rhetorical questions are generally in question format.
    Interesting, whatever versions I was reading used it as a question format. "What more could I have done?" Even if the question isn't posed, the proposition asks a rhetorical question: "What happened?" Did God really not know?
    Does this REALLY look like a rhetorical question to you?
    "So He expected it to bring forth good grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes."

    Not only is it not a rhetorical question, it's not even a question.

    How so????
    Isaiah 5:5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned; And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
    God is simply saying that because Israel disobeyed (when He expected them to obey) He is now going to punish them for their disobedience. How does that help your argument? (now that my friend is a rhetorical question)

    Sorry Lonster, It's very clear your explanation strikes out on all counts.
    No problem. I don't believe it is inept explanation on my part or inept recognition on your part. V5 answered the rhetorical question's answer in judgement in my mind.
    God didn't wait for an answer. If it wasn't a question, it still elicits one. "If you have been cared for by the God of the universe to produce righteousness, how is it that this didn't happen?" Does God know the answer? I do as I hope you do as well. I think it is so obvious that God doesn't expound the obvious but cuts to the chase. What is the answer? What is it that caused the 'grapes' to sour or rot?

  5. #35
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonster
    Thoughts?
    Thoughts?

    The Bible is clear. God is clear, He can and does repent.

    Why complicate things simply to fit a preconceived theology?

    My thought is that you should conform your theology to fit God's word, instead of the reverse.
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    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonster
    What is it that caused the 'grapes' to sour or rot?
    You tell me.
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  7. #37
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonster
    Interesting, whatever versions I was reading used it as a question format. "What more could I have done?" Even if the question isn't posed, the proposition asks a rhetorical question: "What happened?" Did God really not know?
    OK, but my point is... God's expectation is not rhetorical which of course is what I was pointing out.

    If you where only looking at the "why then" question in the verse you are missing the most important part: God's expectation of good grapes.

    YES or NO... was God expecting good grapes?

    If you answer YES, please explain how that would fit into your "God's seen the future already" theology.

    If you answer NO, please explain why He stated the opposite.

    Thanks!
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    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Thoughts?

    The Bible is clear. God is clear, He can and does repent.

    Why complicate things simply to fit a preconceived theology?

    My thought is that you should conform your theology to fit God's word, instead of the reverse.
    I appreciate this, but when God says that He does not relent, I have to understand each and every passage afterwards. The OV says that God was mistaken, but this is not a valid arguement for me. And of course, I stated that particular characteristic, because it shows a significant contrast from our perspectives.

    I know it makes complete sense to you. I cannot jump to the obvious and take the easy route, but rather wrestle with the text to see what God is saying. I have questions at that point. "Did God mean He doesn't relent in one aspect, but does in others?" This would make sense. As a Father I do this with my children, somethings I can relent on, others will stand no matter what. I need however, to go back and really 'dig' into the context and wrestle with understanding, I cannot just extrapolate a meaning and hope I am right.

    I think Lamerson gave a reasonable response. http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...61&postcount=8

  9. #39
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    OK, but my point is... God's expectation is not rhetorical which of course is what I was pointing out.

    If you where only looking at the "why then" question in the verse you are missing the most important part: God's expectation of good grapes.

    YES or NO... was God expecting good grapes?

    If you answer YES, please explain how that would fit into your "God's seen the future already" theology.

    If you answer NO, please explain why He stated the opposite.

    Thanks!
    No. God did the work to show in fact that such a thing does not work. Why? Because every religion afterward is going to try to get to God by works and it doesn't work, even in the best tended garden. Why? Because man is incapable of bridging the gap. What was the point? To prepare the mind for a Savior. To show that there is a significant problem that simple husbandry will not fix. They needed to come to an understanding that man does not have the answer to his dilemma. Could the Israelites actually change? Is there a possibility that their fruit could have worked to righteousness? My answer is no. There is no way to eliminate sin without the shedding of blood. There is no way to be right with God without Christ. In Isaiah 53 this is expounded. There is promise after this. Did God expect good grapes? No, but His standard is Holiness and the Israelites had to come to faith the same way we come to faith, but trusting God because our righteousness is sour grapes.
    In the discussion, something(s) are wrong with the grapes. Is it the soil? Is it bad seed? Is it a fungus?
    I ask: What is it that made the fruit of His people bad?

  10. #40
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonster
    I appreciate this, but when God says that He does not relent, I have to understand each and every passage afterwards. The OV says that God was mistaken, but this is not a valid arguement for me.
    Huh???

    No OVer I know says that God was mistaken about relenting. Where did you get that notion?

    Instead, the OV rightly points out that God has the capability to NOT repent in a specific instance.

    Lets look at an example....

    God repented that He made Saul King....

    1Samuel 15:10 Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying, 11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.


    Saul begs Samuel and asks that God pardon him.

    1Samuel 15:24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice. 25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD.


    But Samuel says... "nope!" God is not going to repent and pardon you.

    1Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

    Then God affirms that He repented that He made Saul King.

    1Samuel 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.
    1st Samuel 15 is a direct, objective lesson in the manner in which God can repent. Clearly God can repent, but that doesn't mean He is always going to repent as we see in 1st Samuel 15.

    Lonster, do you understand the OV position better now regarding God having the ability to repent/relent but not the obligation to repent/relent?
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    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonster
    I ask: What is it that made the fruit of His people bad?
    Why you ask? Why did Israel disobey? ANSWER: they have a will of their own and they used it to disobey.

    Now as for......

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonster
    Did God expect good grapes? No
    Quote Originally Posted by God
    I expected it to bring forth good grapes
    Hmmmmm.... one of the two of you must be right.

    God? Or Lonster?
    God? Or Lonster?
    God? Or Lonster?
    God? Or Lonster?

    Another toughy.
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  12. #42
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Huh???

    No OVer I know says that God was mistaken about relenting. Where did you get that notion?
    John Sanders says that God makes mistakes. I believe I read on here that someone believed that this was the case in Samuel.
    Instead, the OV rightly points out that God has the capability to NOT repent in a specific instance.

    Lets look at an example....

    God repented that He made Saul King....

    1Samuel 15:10 Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying, 11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.


    Saul begs Samuel and asks that God pardon him.

    1Samuel 15:24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice. 25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD.


    But Samuel says... "nope!" God is not going to repent and pardon you.

    1Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

    Then God affirms that He repented that He made Saul King.

    1Samuel 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.
    1st Samuel 15 is a direct, objective lesson in the manner in which God can repent. Clearly God can repent, but that doesn't mean He is always going to repent as we see in 1st Samuel 15.

    Lonster, do you understand the OV position better now regarding God having the ability to repent/relent but not the obligation to repent/relent?
    Yes, but if Sanders says God makes mistakes and I believe someone on here said that this was the case with 1 Samuel, I've gotten two different answers.

  13. #43
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Why you ask? Why did Israel disobey? ANSWER: they have a will of their own and they used it to disobey.

    Now as for.....
    Hmmmmm.... one of the two of you must be right.
    God? Or Lonster?
    God? Or Lonster?
    God? Or Lonster?
    God? Or Lonster?

    Another toughy.
    It is only tough because of your understanding. I do not think God was lying. Righteousness and Holiness are indeed His standard. God expects good grapes. What I do not believe, however, is that He was surprised in any way that this didn't happen, but a rhetorical question concerning this problem.

    See, this is a case where you do not sympathize so you do not understand. I understand your view and I appreciate your commitment to scripture, but it is not helping us understand one another. There can be no open discussion if we do not make concessions for our understandings. Are SVer's idiots to you?

    I'm not accusing you, I'm letting the question fall to me: "God or Lonster X's 4." Let me ask you a question: How would you sympathize that I'd answer this, if I'm not an idiot.

    I don't think you want to make that assumption consciously, but there are ways of questioning that imply this. SVer's are not stupid, dishonest, poor theologians, or perfect. We make mistakes. When we are discussing this topic, I hope you can sympathize that we believe that if an attribute is God's alone, it is also best understood by God alone. We do not have to know his transcendent attributes exhaustively to live the way He wants us to live on earth in light of His revelation. There is accusation that our doctrine is infected by outside influence. I do not believe this is the case, because I'd not read philosophy as it connected to theology before I came to these conclusions. I did not just take somebody's word for it either. I am convinced from the scripture that God has transcendent attributes. You don't have to agree with me, but please don't condescend or make no attempt to understand this. I mean if that places me as a heretic in you understanding, I can appreciate that, but as I have been here I haven't gotten that impression, just that we're not very astute. The types of questions here bother me. I was reading in the archives, and I'm pretty sure I am correct in this ascertation. When you ask somebody a condescending question, you are purposefully or unwittingly tearing down a brother's intelligence and reasoning. I don't tend to get too worked up about this, but I have to address this if we are ever going to be able to appreciate one another, our similarity, and our differences. Do you ever wonder why someone being questioned gets so worked up and fleshly? Do you ever wonder why some of the accusations are so raw?
    Do you think that you might do anything to cause such a thing? (communal question, not individual) I'm not very basal when it comes to debate. I don't name call. I try very hard not to pose a question in a condescending manner. I try to compliment someone's logic or intelligence even though the person might be from a cult understanding. I don't mind challenging someone if they present a strong opposite view, but I definitely try to model grace, love, concern while I am typing in response.

    I've appreciated your kindness. I've appreciated your willingness here to talk about this with me. What I really want to see, if we can get any meaning from one another, is if our respective views can show God's working of grace in us. If He can be glorified even if we never agree on our differences. I don't agree with you on a great many things. Further, I don't think we can hope to agree on a great many things until glory where we might both discover we were both mistaken. I cannot sacrifice God's transcendent Characteristics for His shared, relational ones. I believe they go hand in hand from my perspective. How? Good question, and the kinds of questions we need to be discussing. Again, what say you? What is your perspective?

  14. #44
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Let me get back to your question, and I am as guilty of not seeing the forest for the trees here in understanding your initial question.

    It would have helped I think to ask the specific question up front, because leading questions tend to either cause mind reading scenarios or tangent thoughts because I'm a global thinker.

    Isaiah 5:4 When I waited for it to produce edible grapes,
    why did it produce sour ones instead?

    Isa 5:2 And He fenced it, and gathered out the stones of it, and planted it with choice vines, and built a tower in its midst, and hewed out a wine vat in it; and He looked for it to produce grapes. And it produced wild grapes.

    and the version you are using: I expected it to bring forth good grapes


    Expectation can mean anticipation, wait, demand, or the logical conclusion.

    Last night I had to talk with my daughter about a misbehavior. I told her that I expected her to behave like a Christian young lady, and that we model this behavior for her on purpose.
    If I told my daughter I expected my modeling of good behavior to be a fertile ground for her to have the same good behavior, I mean exactly that. But in the circumstance, I was not perplexed by the bad grapes. I am merely stating my expectation. I was not perplexed or surprised that my daughter produced sour grapes. I am just stating that my expectation is higher. This is exactly the same here in this passage.

    The view you hold does an injustice to God. If I know my daughter is capable of producing sour grapes, God certainly knows His people better than I know my daughter. I produce an environment of love purposefully in modelling the behavior so that she has a good example to emulate. God worked with Israel in much the same way to make them a people who produced good grapes. He provided an environment that would encourage good behavior. Every good parent does this but just as a parent never would be so naive to believe their children will never fall away from following this example they have set,
    God wouldn't be very relational in even OV theology if He was caught by surprise here on how the Israelites responded to His care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonster
    Last night I had to talk with my daughter about a misbehavior. I told her that I expected her to behave like a Christian young lady, and that we model this behavior for her on purpose.
    If I told my daughter I expected my modeling of good behavior to be a fertile ground for her to have the same good behavior, I mean exactly that. But in the circumstance, I was not perplexed by the bad grapes. I am merely stating my expectation. I was not perplexed or surprised that my daughter produced sour grapes. I am just stating that my expectation is higher. This is exactly the same here in this passage.
    Again... you fail to distinguish between knowledge and exhaustive foreknowledge. Until you can grasp this difference you will never fully understand any of this. (not trying to sound mean but its true)

    Keep in mind that in your analogy about you and your daughter that you are not God, therefore you have not seen the future in the way you believe that God has seen the future. You might say the things you have said to your daughter because you have NOT seen the future, instead, you say what you say to your daughter based on your simple knowledge regarding your daughter and you use that knowledge to predict her future actions. (your analogy is a better analogy if used in a Open View theology)

    IN CONTRAST:
    Your theology (the settled view theology) is very different. Your version of God's knowledge is that He isn't merely predicting the future, but that He has SEEN the future (in every detail). That distinction changes everything.

    If God has SEEN the future it would be psychotic for Him to expect, wait on, demand, or anticipate anything OTHER than what He has seen in the future.


    Until you come to grips with the distinction between knowledge and exhaustive foreknowledge I am not sure how much more we will be able to discuss this. It's like trying to explain to someone why two plus two equals four and not five.

    Have a great weekend, I am traveling so I don't know how much more I will be able to respond until Sunday night or Monday morning.
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