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Thread: One on One: Knight and Lonster open up the settled view.

  1. #16
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Oh and... did you read the part of my post where I stated.....

    Exhaustive foreknowledge is knowledge that is.... well.... exhaustive! Without exception. Without contingency. Not missing in any detail, no matter how small (the behavior and movement of every molecule, the size and shape of every snowflake, the choice and thought of every human for all of time). If God has exhaustive foreknowledge nothing could ever happen that wasn't contained within that knowledge. By removing any contingency we therefore remove any possibility of freewill (other than illusionary).
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  2. #17
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    By agreeing with my statement... "If God has exhaustive foreknowledge nothing could ever happen that wasn't contained within that knowledge." You answer the question yourself.

    Think about it.
    How does knowledge equal determinism? I don't think Aristotle's problem applies logically. http://www.sfu.ca/philosophy/freewill2.htm

    Knowledge and determinism are separate issues in my mind.

    I can know everthing there is to know about x, but I do not have to be the author of x.
    If I examine an egg, know everything there is to know about an egg, I am still not a chicken. God's knowledge is infinitely more capable, and He is indeed the author, designer, and sustainer of chickens, but He is not one. In computer programming, the programmer can make a program with an 'if' statement or randomizer string that allows a program to roll a dice and change an outcome. However, because the programmer wrote every word of the program, he knows fairly exhaustively what will happen in those scenarios. If you do not understand what I am saying, make sure to read proposition 3 on that link, for I believe he explains the problem I believe you are having on this dilemma quite well.

    Please appreciate that I do not believe in exhaustive foreknowledge, but I don't want to define God's knowledge in a way that exceeds scripture, as I believe there can be a danger from either side of this discussion. I know to a reasonable certaintly that God's knowledge is on points, purposefully selective, or He could not forget my sin, nor could His Holy Spirit be quenched if I believed in exhaustive presence.

  3. #18
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonster
    How does knowledge equal determinism?
    Knowledge doesn't equal determinism. Exhaustive foreknowledge does. (for reasons already stated, and of course common sense).

    Please appreciate that I do not believe in exhaustive foreknowledge,
    Excellent! I didn't know you were an Open Theist!

    Should I close this thread?
    Last edited by Knight; February 7th, 2007 at 04:18 PM.
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  4. #19
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Knowledge doesn't equal determinism. Exhaustive foreknowledge does. (for reasons already stated, and of course common sense).

    Excellent! I didn't know you were an Open Theist!

    Should I close this thread?
    LOL, "...killing me Smalls."

    If this were the case, the only people that would have a problem between the 2 views would be.....

    I'd still appreciate discussing our differences and the differences with the Settled View.

    One instance of course is God's understanding of the future, I really believe that scripture demands that God know much of the future in foreknowledge. Though I probably would be seen as a very conservative OV Theist, we still seem to have some discussion.

    It was interesting when Gary Friesen wrote his book, "Decision Making and the Will of God," he published right during my junior year. He came into the cafeteria and spoke and took questions from us and even there there was division. Some students were really troubled, some of us were right in the middle somewhere, and the Assemblies kids were estatic!

  5. #20
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonster
    How does knowledge equal determinism? I don't think Aristotle's problem applies logically. http://www.sfu.ca/philosophy/freewill2.htm
    In the link you supplied under proposition three (which you asked that I read) I see absolutely no objection to Open Theism made or even attempted. If anything it's just a statement of how things are and how things transpire. It doesn't even address compatabilism as far as I can tell.

    I am not sure why you wanted me to read it but was there a point you thought it made that objected to Open Theism?
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  6. #21
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Earlier I asked....

    "If God has exhaustive foreknowledge nothing could ever happen that wasn't contained within that knowledge."

    To which you agreed. Now when we say "nothing" we expressly mean no "thing". "Nothing" means no "thing". The "thing" could be replaced with any "thing"

    So lets rephrase the question and see if you still agree with it.....


    If God has exhaustive foreknowledge no choice could ever happen that wasn't contained within that knowledge.

    Agree or disagree?
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  7. #22
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Agree.

    I believe the SV Theologists agree also.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  8. #23
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonster
    Agree.
    If you agree.... then why don't you see how exhaustive foreknowledge eliminates freewill?
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  9. #24
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Earlier I asked....

    "If God has exhaustive foreknowledge nothing could ever happen that wasn't contained within that knowledge."

    To which you agreed. Now when we say "nothing" we expressly mean no "thing". "Nothing" means no "thing". The "thing" could be replaced with any "thing"

    So lets rephrase the question and see if you still agree with it.....


    If God has exhaustive foreknowledge no choice could ever happen that wasn't contained within that knowledge.

    Agree or disagree?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lonster
    Agree.

    I believe the SV Theologists agree also.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    If you agree.... then why don't you see how exhaustive foreknowledge eliminates freewill?
    The difficulty here, I believe, is how we both look at this from differing perspectives.
    Our doctrinal stances focus on the differences that standout to our view.
    This often leads to talking past one another, and it is my hope that we can understand more of what those differences are so that a meeting in the middle will allow for meaningful discussion and better communication.

    I've been racking my brain on how to give understanding on this as well as a few other ideas from a traditional perspective, and in so doing, I've really worked at trying to get an OV mindset because I believe while there are some concerns, that you have a love for God, a love for His Word, and that you stand on basic doctrines of faith.

    I have no basis for analogy here because I can only guess or give clouded perception on a characteristic of God's that I do not possess, God's foreknowledge. We share many of God's attributes, but there are a few that are His alone and this is one of them. He knows stuff about the future and can say something is definitely going to happen and it will. Satan is going to be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Nothing is going to stop that from happening. The only reason I know this, is because God shared the truth of His foreknowledge, but I don't have foreknowledge, just a perception from His foreknowledge. It is like His eternality, we don't have any perception of an eternity past. Everything in our perception has a beginning except God. Anything that is God's alone, and is not shared with us is going to have logic problems for us. It is His alone, we can only perceive the truth about those attributes but not understand them, no matter how logical our minds or how brilliant. 1Co 1:27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
    1Co 1:28 and God has chosen the base things of the world, and things which are despised, and things which are not, in order to bring to nothing things that are;
    1Co 1:29 so that no flesh should glory in His presence.
    1Co 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who of God is made to us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption;
    1Co 1:31 so that, according as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."

    Are you tying together Will and Knowledge here? I am still trying to understand why knowing something is the same as doing something. If I tell you that yesterday it rained, I am 100% sure about that, but I didn't cause it.

  10. #25
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonster
    He knows stuff about the future and can say something is definitely going to happen and it will.
    And that's because God can bring events to pass if He so chooses. Satan can't stop God from throwing him into the lake of fire! God doesn't need to have seen the future to be able to know what He plans to do with Satan.

    Yet....

    How do you respond to things that God thought was going to happen but didn't?

    How can that possibly fit into God having "seen" the future?

    I am still trying to understand why knowing something is the same as doing something. If I tell you that yesterday it rained, I am 100% sure about that, but I didn't cause it.
    The past is settled, the future isn't.

    Do you know any OPV'ers? (Open Past Viewers) As for me? I am a CPV'er (Closed Past Viewer).

    You cannot compare what HAS happened to what HAS YET to happen, they are as far from each other as the west is from the east.
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  11. #26
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    And that's because God can bring events to pass if He so chooses. Satan can't stop God from throwing him into the lake of fire! God doesn't need to have seen the future to be able to know what He plans to do with Satan. Yet....
    As our perspective views allow, for differing reasons. Is it Omnipotence then here? What is the view that helps OV understand this?



    How do you respond to things that God thought was going to happen but didn't?
    How can that possibly fit into God having "seen" the future?
    Your turn here. Bring up some scriptures examples so that we can examine them together.

    The past is settled, the future isn't.

    Do you know any OPV'ers? (Open Past Viewers) As for me? I am a CPV'er (Closed Past Viewer).
    Just God. You?


    If I could bring back the 'Choose your own story,' the idea of Foreknowledge is that God wrote the book, but we are in the middle of the story. I know what I chose to get here, but I don't know how the book ends. God provided the prompts for me to continue, but He knows all the ways the book can proceed and will end. I haven't read the last chapter, but God has written it in this perspective. Again, we both know He has foreknowledge because the greek word is used. I think what we need to flesh out is how we both perceive this, and how much we can possibly know for certain about this.

    You cannot compare what HAS happened to what HAS YET to happen, they are as far from each other as the west is from the east.
    I think the bold print question will bring some perspective and meaningful discussion.

  12. #27
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    In #17 you pointed out a potential hazard. Please forgive my definition problem.

    I'd like to correct myself if you will allow.

    I said that I did not believe in exhaustive foreknowledge. I meant that I do not believe in exhaustive knowledge. God chooses to forget our sin, so while I believe in extensive knowlege of God, including the future, I believe He chooses to set limits on His knowledge. I tend to get uncomfortable when man sets these limits. If God tells us He chooses to forget, no problem. I'm not sure why I didn't hone in on 'fore' in foreknowledge in that post. That link sure would have done it. Please forgive the misunderstanding and any ensuing problems in reasoning or discussion after.

  13. #28
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonster
    As our perspective views allow, for differing reasons. Is it Omnipotence then here? What is the view that helps OV understand this?
    Yes. God has the power to do all that is logically doable. Satan does not have power over God. When God feels enough is enough (please Lord come soon ) then God will handle Satan the way He has determined.

    If a man said....
    "I am going to Wal-Mart tomorrow." If that man is reliable, it is very likely that we will see that man at Wal-Mart tomorrow. Yet there are several variables (known and unknown to the man) that could prevent the man from accomplishing his goals i.e., the battery in his car could fail, his wife might over rule him , or he might forget!

    God on the other hand is all powerful.
    There is NOTHING (other than His own will) that will stop Him from doing what He wants to do.

    Why God would want to go to Wal-Mart is beyond me.

    Therefore because we trust God and know He is Omni-reliable ( I just made that up) we can trust that God will keep His word and bring the events to pass that He has determined to bring to pass.

    I trust God...
    not because He has peeked into the future but instead because He is good, loving, trustworthy and righteous.

    NEXT TOPIC:


    I asked...

    How do you respond to things that God thought was going to happen but didn't?
    How can that possibly fit into God having "seen" the future?

    You responded...
    Your turn here. Bring up some scriptures examples so that we can examine them together.
    Lets examine one at a time....

    Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected it to bring forth good grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes. 3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

    God expected Israel to be obedient, yet Israel was disobedient.

    If God had already seen the future why would God expect something other than what He had seen in advance?
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  14. #29
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight


    How do you respond to things that God thought was going to happen but didn't?
    How can that possibly fit into God having "seen" the future?

    You responded...
    Lets examine one at a time....

    Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected it to bring forth good grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes. 3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

    God expected Israel to be obedient, yet Israel was disobedient.

    If God had already seen the future why would God expect something other than what He had seen in advance?
    Do you see His question as rhetorical/accusative or as a perplexing dilemma here? My answer is that it is rhetoric for the obvious and it's purpose is reflective for their self analysis. In other words, God knew the anwer but was elliciting a response.
    The next verse after should clear that up I believe.
    Last edited by Lon; February 8th, 2007 at 01:08 AM. Reason: my perspective after posing the question

  15. #30
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    On #17 I was very perplexed that I could make a mistake like this so had to go back and re-read all of our posts. In your response #13, you stated: "Man does not have exhaustive foreknowledge. (you actually answered the question yourself in your post)"

    As I said in post #10 that I didn't know, when you said I was an OVer I believed you at that point, but as I told you before in PM, I'm scrambling to read other posts and get a better understanding of the OV. As I understand OV from my research last night, I don't believe I could be called such as a theological position and here is why:

    Regardless of the fact that some of the Omni's are not found as "Omni's" (All Powerful, All Knowing, Everywhere present, etc.)in Scripture, I believe in God's transcendant attributes. In other words God has attributes that are His alone. I think you hold to this view also, but we disagree on quite a few of them. When Enyart spoke to the differences and rejection of the Omni's and I read that last night, I understood at least our differences there. I read a bit from John Sanders also, so I have an better understanding of where OV stands this morning. If the scriptures do not use an Omni, there are other words that substitute in or there are passages that explain those characteristics.

    In Enyart's diagram, http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...64&postcount=6 he specifically rejects the attributes that are God's transcendant characteristics. If any of God's attributes are transcendant, they cannot be clearly understood by man because they are God's qualities alone. We do not share them so we have no capability to apprehend them in a logical way. We can acknowledge them, but once we would try to apprehend them, logic will only allow us to go so far.

    God is not a man nor does He think like a man. God's ways are higher than our ways.
    He does not relent, He does not lie. He cannot make a mistake.

    To discount any of God's transcendant attributes based on logical reasoning is not consistent with His revelation. The only thing we can do at these times is accept truth, no matter if it is difficult to apprehend. To make a system that apprehends God's transcendant nature, is compartmental, and I believe you have our God in a human shaped box. Each and every view concerning that which is unknowable is categorically dismissed, and I don't think this allows God to be God in passages where His transcendence is indicated and expressed.

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