Help Needed on an Assignment about Philosophy, "Americanness," and Nation-Worldviews

A

ASOAK7

New member
Help Needed on an Assignment about Philosophy, "Americanness," and Nation-Worldviews

Hello all. I have a school assignment that I am working on that requires me to pose some questions related to a certain work or theme my class has looked at over the course of the semester and dialogue with those who respond. I decided to tackle Plutarch's Lives.

In his Lives, Plutarch recounts short biographies of famous Romans who lived down through the ages in order to unpack what it means to be an ideal Roman. What makes a man a true Roman can be called “Romanness” and, in Plutarch’s view, consists of a variety of virtues such as valor in battle, patriotism motivated by love for the glory of Rome, austerity, piety, ambition, and so on. Such idealizations are not limited to ancient civilizations, as every nation from ancient times to the present creates lists of such virtues that it believes all true citizens should possess. In America, this tendency most often manifests itself in appeals to the “Founding Fathers,” nostalgic reminiscences about the work ethic of men in “days gone by,” and the elevation of famous Americans who are looked at with admiration such as George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. In light of this, I would like to ask four main questions and would appreciate any help/response you are willing to offer:

  • Is there such a thing as “Americanness,” meaning certain virtues or aspects of a man that make him an American beyond simply his being a citizen? If so, what are some examples? Freedom-loving? Peace-seeking?

  • Where does this “Americanness” come from and how does a citizen embody it?

  • Are there any men or women who embody what it means to truly be an American?
  • Is it important for American citizens to embody these “virtues?” If so, why? If not, why not?
 
T

Truster

New member
The American is noted for his love of idols.

The love of idols comes from the love of mammon which is the root of all evil.

The Kardashian Sisters.

I can't think of any virtues that I've witnessed on this site.
 
journey

journey

New member
Truster said:
The American is noted for his love of idols.

The love of idols comes from the love of mammon which is the root of all evil.

The Kardashian Sisters.

I can't think of any virtues that I've witnessed on this site.
Click to expand...

So, you're the only one with virtues on this site? You paint with a broad brush from a position of ignorance.
 
A

ASOAK7

New member
Truster, thank you for your input. If you are willing, I'd appreciate some feedback on these next two questions.

#1: Are there any positive virtues that you believe to be common to Americans as a people? You mentioned idolatry as being a "virtue" that is common to all Americans, but do you think there are any positive attributes that can be seen?

Also, would you perhaps be willing to elaborate on why you added at the end that "you can think of no virtues you've seen on this site?" Are you saying that the people on this site do not display such negative American virtues or that there are no virtues being displayed on these forums at all?
 
Bradley D

Bradley D

Well-known member
You need to come up with a definition of virtue. Then see if Americans fit your definition of virtue. In the NT virtue the Greek for virtue arête describes
it as moral excellence, perfection, goodness, a gracious act, and uprightness. Is that what you see out there.
 
JosephR

JosephR

New member
ASOAK7 said:
Truster, thank you for your input. If you are willing, I'd appreciate some feedback on these next two questions.

#1: Are there any positive virtues that you believe to be common to Americans as a people? You mentioned idolatry as being a "virtue" that is common to all Americans, but do you think there are any positive attributes that can be seen?

Also, would you perhaps be willing to elaborate on why you added at the end that "you can think of no virtues you've seen on this site?" Are you saying that the people on this site do not display such negative American virtues or that there are no virtues being displayed on these forums at all?
Click to expand...

he is a demon and will provide no strait answers..

his tongue is held back in such cases....
 
PureX

PureX

Well-known member
The essence of the classic citizen of the U.S. of A. is self-delusion. And I don't mean that flippantly.

This nation was founded by wealthy, educated white men, and was intended to be run by wealthy educated white men in perpetuity. And it still is being run by the wealthy white male elite. It was not intended to be run by the general populace and it never has been. Yet when these wealthy white men got together and began proclaiming their intent to create a new nation, they waxed so poetically and magnanimously about their right to do so that they accidentally wrote one of the most amazing documents in human history; proclaiming that all men are created equal, and that they all therefor have an equal right to life, liberty and opportunity. And that if their governments do not assert and protect those rights, the people have the right to disempower their governments and create new ones.

The thing is, these guys saw themselves as being "the people" relative to the even wealthier, whiter men that were ruling over them, even as they were elitists who saw everyone else (women, uneducated men, and men and women of color) as being of less value and significance than themselves. So they simultaneously became both "the government" AND "the people" at the same time, in their own minds.

They were delusional.

And this nation has been fighting with itself as a result, ever since, as "the people" keep trying to get "the government" to assert and protect those unalienable equal rights of which the founders wrote so beautifully. And yet these same "people" each see themselves as the ruling elite that should be in charge of everyone else, because they believe that they are better suited to govern everyone else's rights and behaviors (just as the founded assumed the same of themselves).

So we have become a nation of people who believe in freedom, but only our own. We believe in equal justice and equal opportunity, but only for ourselves. We are a nation of 'selfists', because we were founded by 'selfists'. And 'selfists' are people who think they represent 'everyman' (they consider themselves "men of the people"), when in fact they believe they should represent everyone else because they believe they are better than everyone else (the natural rulers of other people).

The classic U.S. citizen is self-delusional, in a schizoid sort of way. He/she is a kind of split personality: split between what he thinks himself to be, and what he/she actually is. And never the twain personalities shall be allowed to meet. The greatest sin in america is not rape or murder, and is clearly not stealing (stealing is just good business, after all), it's exposing the big lie: that we are absurdly class-conscious, hierarchical, and elitist, and that we are brutal and ruthless in maintaining these distinctions; distinctions that we absolutely will not acknowledge exist. Because if we were to acknowledge this about ourselves, we would have to acknowledge that we in fact have become the nation that we rebelled against in the War of Independence, and that we supposedly created this nation to break free from. We broke free of our oppressors and exploiters so we could oppress and exploit each other.
 
Town Heretic

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
ASOAK7 said:
  • Is there such a thing as “Americanness,” meaning certain virtues or aspects of a man that make him an American beyond simply his being a citizen? If so, what are some examples? Freedom-loving? Peace-seeking?

Click to expand...

  • Individualistic. We have a fundamental belief in our inalienable rights and look to power, even our own, with suspicion and mistrust.

    [*]Where does this “Americanness” come from and how does a citizen embody it?

    Click to expand...
    It's a birthright. Partly due to the nature of our compact, partly due to the diversity that would resist too much of a singularity in any sense, though we've had generations of a social order dominated by a particular set. The more you move away from the inherent corruption and increasingly dependent city mentality and out into the hinterlands, the more you'd discover that commonality in a fiercely individualistic diversity.
    [*]Are there any men or women who embody what it means to truly be an American?
    Click to expand...
    In leadership? No. You can't reach the corridors of power without becoming, essentially, a rhetorical shill for special interests of one sort or another. Take a car and drive the backroads, stop in small towns and take breakfast in the local diner.

    [*]Is it important for American citizens to embody these “virtues?” If so, why? If not, why not?
    Click to expand...
Important? It's unavoidable.
 
A

ASOAK7

New member
Bradley D said:
You need to come up with a definition of virtue. Then see if Americans fit your definition of virtue. In the NT virtue the Greek for virtue arête describes
it as moral excellence, perfection, goodness, a gracious act, and uprightness. Is that what you see out there.
Click to expand...

Bradley, when I use the term virtue, I am using it in a very loose sense. I mean the term in a subjective rather than objective or biblically-defined sense. Are there certain things that "Americans" believe to be virtues that ought to define all citizens? For example, it seems to me that "tolerance" is one example of an American "virtue," though even that is a pretty ambiguous term.
 
A

ASOAK7

New member
PureX said:
The essence of the classic citizen of the U.S. of A. is self-delusion. And I don't mean that flippantly.

This nation was founded by wealthy, educated white men, and was intended to be run by wealthy educated white men in perpetuity. And it still is being run by the wealthy white male elite. It was not intended to be run by the general populace and it never has been. Yet when these wealthy white men got together and began proclaiming their intent to create a new nation, they waxed so poetically and magnanimously about their right to do so that they accidentally wrote one of the most amazing documents in human history; proclaiming that all men are created equal, and that they all therefor have an equal right to life, liberty and opportunity. And that if their governments do not assert and protect those rights, the people have the right to disempower their governments and create new ones.

The thing is, these guys saw themselves as being "the people" relative to the even wealthier, whiter men that were ruling over them, even as they were elitists who saw everyone else (women, uneducated men, and men and women of color) as being of less value and significance than themselves. So they simultaneously became both "the government" AND "the people" at the same time, in their own minds.

They were delusional.

And this nation has been fighting with itself as a result, ever since, as "the people" keep trying to get "the government" to assert and protect those unalienable equal rights of which the founders wrote so beautifully. And yet these same "people" each see themselves as the ruling elite that should be in charge of everyone else, because they believe that they are better suited to govern everyone else's rights and behaviors (just as the founded assumed the same of themselves).

So we have become a nation of people who believe in freedom, but only our own. We believe in equal justice and equal opportunity, but only for ourselves. We are a nation of 'selfists', because we were founded by 'selfists'. And 'selfists' are people who think they represent 'everyman' (they consider themselves "men of the people"), when in fact they believe they should represent everyone else because they believe they are better than everyone else (the natural rulers of other people).

The classic U.S. citizen is self-delusional, in a schizoid sort of way. He/she is a kind of split personality: split between what he thinks himself to be, and what he/she actually is. And never the twain personalities shall be allowed to meet. The greatest sin in america is not rape or murder, and is clearly not stealing (stealing is just good business, after all), it's exposing the big lie: that we are absurdly class-conscious, hierarchical, and elitist, and that we are brutal and ruthless in maintaining these distinctions; distinctions that we absolutely will not acknowledge exist. Because if we were to acknowledge this about ourselves, we would have to acknowledge that we in fact have become the nation that we rebelled against in the War of Independence, and that we supposedly created this nation to break free from. We broke free of our oppressors and exploiters so we could oppress and exploit each other.
Click to expand...

First of all, thank you, PureX, for taking the time to respond.

Second, if you are willing, I would like to ask you a few more questions:

  • Do you believe there is a certain "virtue" that self-deluded Americans hold up as an ideal that they strive toward embodying?
  • What do you envision the ideal government would look like? A few people from every class, ideological camp, self-identified gender, race, creed, etc.?
 
A

ASOAK7

New member
Town Heretic said:
Individualistic. We have a fundamental belief in our inalienable rights and look to power, even our own, with suspicion and mistrust.


It's a birthright. Partly due to the nature of our compact, partly due to the diversity that would resist too much of a singularity in any sense, though we've had generations of a social order dominated by a particular set. The more you move away from the inherent corruption and increasingly dependent city mentality and out into the hinterlands, the more you'd discover that commonality in a fiercely individualistic diversity.

In leadership? No. You can't reach the corridors of power without becoming, essentially, a rhetorical shill for special interests of one sort or another. Take a car and drive the backroads, stop in small towns and take breakfast in the local diner.


Important? It's unavoidable.
Click to expand...

Town Heretic, thank you for your response. I have a few questions that I would love to hear your feedback on:

  • Do you believe Americans hold individualism up as an American "virtue" that should be aspired to?
  • Are there any other "virtues" that go hand-in-hand with the American's love of individualism?
  • When you say that no one in politics is an example of the ideal "American" because they cater to special interests, why do you think that? To my mind, it is impossible for someone to not "cater" to special interest groups in the sense that everyone stands for something, even someone who wants to be tolerant of everyone and everything will have to be "intolerant" toward those who go against their view of "tolerance."
  • What would the ideal American politician look like to you?
 
A

ASOAK7

New member
This Charming Manc said:
A view from a cross the pond is that Individualism is strong a trait, not sure if I would call it a virtue.
Click to expand...

TCM, thank you for chipping in. I hoped I would find someone who could offer an "outsider's" perspective. :) As far as virtue goes, please see my response to Bradley; I apologize for not better defining virtue in my original post. One question:
  • Are there other so-called "virtues" that you observe going hand-in-hand with the American's individualism?
 
badp

badp

New member
There's no such thing as "Americanness."

Maybe you should ask your teacher if there's such a thing as "Indianness" or "Chinaness" or "Mexicanness" or even "Iraqness". Then (s)he/it will realize what a dumb assignment it is.
 
patrick jane

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
ASOAK7 said:
Hello all. I have a school assignment that I am working on that requires me to pose some questions related to a certain work or theme my class has looked at over the course of the semester and dialogue with those who respond. I decided to tackle Plutarch's Lives.

In his Lives, Plutarch recounts short biographies of famous Romans who lived down through the ages in order to unpack what it means to be an ideal Roman. What makes a man a true Roman can be called “Romanness” and, in Plutarch’s view, consists of a variety of virtues such as valor in battle, patriotism motivated by love for the glory of Rome, austerity, piety, ambition, and so on. Such idealizations are not limited to ancient civilizations, as every nation from ancient times to the present creates lists of such virtues that it believes all true citizens should possess. In America, this tendency most often manifests itself in appeals to the “Founding Fathers,” nostalgic reminiscences about the work ethic of men in “days gone by,” and the elevation of famous Americans who are looked at with admiration such as George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. In light of this, I would like to ask four main questions and would appreciate any help/response you are willing to offer:

  • Is there such a thing as “Americanness,” meaning certain virtues or aspects of a man that make him an American beyond simply his being a citizen? If so, what are some examples? Freedom-loving? Peace-seeking?

  • Where does this “Americanness” come from and how does a citizen embody it?

  • Are there any men or women who embody what it means to truly be an American?
  • Is it important for American citizens to embody these “virtues?” If so, why? If not, why not?
Click to expand...

Read the book of Acts entirely, and then Romans thru Philemon, all in the New Testament and read of Paul the Apostle and letters Paul wrote. He's the best Roman I know.
 
Town Heretic

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
ASOAK7 said:
Town Heretic, thank you for your response. I have a few questions that I would love to hear your feedback on:

[*]Do you believe Americans hold individualism up as an American "virtue" that should be aspired to?
Click to expand...
It's in the culture. Watch our movies and listen to the music we produce. It tends to celebrate the individual and cast any organized power as either incompetent, corrupt or both. We went through a brief period during and immediately after WWII where the state was embraced as a defender of that, but within a generation it was suspicion as usual.

*Are there any other "virtues" that go hand-in-hand with the American's love of individualism?
Click to expand...
Associative, in our celebration of the freedoms that are essential to it, like the right to speak, move about and, within the consideration of competing rights, do as we will. That's one reason why we place so much value on rags to riches stories.

[*]When you say that no one in politics is an example of the ideal "American" because they cater to special interests, why do you think that?
Click to expand...
Because the only way you get elected to national office in this country is with an impossible amount of capital behind you. And people who supply that don't tend to be altruists. They're special interest PACs and corporations with very particular agendas that aren't driven by larger, nationalistic concerns. A politician is by and large as foreign in nature to the individualist as can be produced, which is likely one reason we hold politicians in general contempt.

[*]What would the ideal American politician look like to you?
Click to expand...
Someone accomplished in a field outside of politics prior to entering it, intelligent, and compelled by conscience instead of a weathervane.
 
Bradley D

Bradley D

Well-known member
ASOAK7 said:
Bradley, when I use the term virtue, I am using it in a very loose sense. I mean the term in a subjective rather than objective or biblically-defined sense. Are there certain things that "Americans" believe to be virtues that ought to define all citizens? For example, it seems to me that "tolerance" is one example of an American "virtue," though even that is a pretty ambiguous term.
Click to expand...

As for tolerance. Everyone seems to be only tolerant of those who hold their view. According to polls that country seems to be nearly divided in their beliefs. Right now tolerance towards Muslims seems very low. During WWII tolerance of American Japanese was very low. So I do not see a lot of tolerance out there from what I read and see on the news. I served in the Navy for 30 years. I believe that I served to defend the rights of all citizens. I would read the Constitution and amendments. That would be the supreme term of tolerance I believe all Americans should reach for. I believe virtues are taught. What is being taught these days?
 
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