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Thread: Is the KJV the only inspired version today? - Battle Royale IV - JALTUS vs. s9s27s54

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    You said,


    So is only the KJV an inspired version according to this definition, or can any other Bible claim the same priviledge? My point is this: if “inspired” means from God in any sense, how can any human claim to know what happened between God and a group of people? none of us were there when the KJV was written, nor were any of us there when (for example) the ESV was written. Thus, it is impossible for us to even make a claim about inspiration since it necessarily means knowing what went on between God and a group of people. Maybe you are ready to say that you know this, but I do not have the arrgoance to make such a claim.

    It's not arrogancy that is making me make such a claim. It's called obedience. Inspired means literally God breathed. This does not mean in any sense. He had a purpose in mind. That purpose was His Word. And not just any bible either. If you compare the versions written today you'll see what I mean. We will compare verses later.

    You said,
    What if we alter the meaning a little and say that inspiration depends on the results of what a Bible does? Then it becomes even less clear, for God is not limited by anything! Someone could find the name “Jesus” written in a newspaper and God could use that to save, for “all things are possible” through God.

    Why alter the meaning? That means to change the meaning. Changing the meaning is a no-no in God's book. That's exactly what these new versions do, is change the meaning.`Here are just a few words the new versions "alter." This comes from the book New Age Bible Versions: Lucifer is called Morning Star, Jehovah is Lord (In the Old Testament KJV Jehovah is called Lord, but with all caps, there is a difference between all cap and just the L being capitalized.) Holy One of Israel is called One, Holy Ghost is called Spirit, (just plain Spirit, nothing else), Lord Jesus Christ is called Lord (You have Jesus and God being called Lord and they are, but the KJV makes a difference between the two, in other words, it's more to the point.) Godhead is Divine Being.

    You told me I was wrong in my translation meaning. You chose a single phrase. You said it had different meanings. True, words do have more than one meaning. Explain this if you will. Again I'm using New Age Bible Versions book. I'm using one example. When the KJV used the phrase: I abhor myself, the other versions say My conscience is clear. These other versions also omit a lot of things, but I'll leave that for my closing arguement.


    You really shouldn't skip what I said about the Catholic Church. You say it's been around. Believe me when I tell it's a touchy subject.

    You said: First off, any version of the Bible is going to come down to us through the Catholic church, since it was the only church in the world for at least a little while. Thus, that point is moot. In terms of spiritualists, this is just a false allegation

    This is false. The Catholic Church started around 325 A.D. God has always had a remnant.

    When I was talking about the people tranlating the bible being spiritualists, you said it was a lie. Prove it. It's not. It's documented. The footnote says: Arthur Westcott, The Life and Letters of Brook Foss Wescott, Vol.II (London: Macmillan and Co., Limited 1903 p. 252.

    In conclusion you said:

    I am not advocating that one translation is better than another. I am simply advocating that God preserved His word in many forms, who are we to tell Him how He must do things?

    Well, I am advocating one translation. It's the right translation. Your "other" translations omit a lot of things which I will get into in my closing argument and change the meanings.

    And another thing, you haven't shown me any scripture.

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    Post 4

    You said,
    1It's not arrogancy that is making me make such a claim. It's called obedience. Inspired means literally God breathed. This does not mean in any sense. He had a purpose in mind. That purpose was His Word. And not just any bible either. If you compare the versions written today you'll see what I mean. We will compare verses later.
    How do you know “not just any Bible?” Where in scripture is the King James Version mentioned as the Only Inspired Translation? Is there only 1 translation viable per language?

    You said,
    2Why alter the meaning? That means to change the meaning. Changing the meaning is a no-no in God's book. That's exactly what these new versions do, is change the meaning.`Here are just a few words the new versions "alter." This comes from the book New Age Bible Versions: Lucifer is called Morning Star, Jehovah is Lord (In the Old Testament KJV Jehovah is called Lord, but with all caps, there is a difference between all cap and just the L being capitalized.) Holy One of Israel is called One, Holy Ghost is called Spirit, (just plain Spirit, nothing else), Lord Jesus Christ is called Lord (You have Jesus and God being called Lord and they are, but the KJV makes a difference between the two, in other words, it's more to the point.) Godhead is Divine Being.
    Not in any version I read are these changes made, except for two. Lucifer means Morning Star, it is a Hebrew word. The only difference is translating the name. Next, I refuse to use the tetragrammaton, especially spelled wrong (there is no J in Hebrew, nor is there a V, they are Y and W respectively). Otherwise, none of those changes occur that I know of, at least not wholesale as you seem to be claiming. Sure, there are a few small changes in terms of here it is JC, there it is LJC, and there it is just J. However, it is only a minor difference in wording, but no difference in meaning. (is Jesus somehow different from the Lord Jesus Christ in terms of who it refers to?)
    3You told me I was wrong in my translation meaning. You chose a single phrase. You said it had different meanings. True, words do have more than one meaning. Explain this if you will. Again I'm using New Age Bible Versions book. I'm using one example. When the KJV used the phrase: I abhor myself, the other versions say My conscience is clear. These other versions also omit a lot of things, but I'll leave that for my closing arguement.
    That is just wrong, assuming you are referring to Job 42:6. Some translations say “I retract myself” since the Hebrew wording can mean either, but most go with “I despise myself.”

    This is false. The Catholic Church started around 325 A.D. God has always had a remnant.
    LOL. Not even touching this, it is so fallacious.
    4When I was talking about the people tranlating the bible being spiritualists, you said it was a lie. Prove it. It's not. It's documented. The footnote says: Arthur Westcott, The Life and Letters of Brook Foss Wescott, Vol.II (London: Macmillan and Co., Limited 1903 p. 252.
    Again, that only works for the RSV, maybe. Wescott and Hort were only involved in the RSV, but they were not in fact translators, they collated Greek manuscripts. Therefore, your contention is at the least misguided. For other versions of the Bible, it is flat out wrong.
    5And another thing, you haven't shown me any scripture.
    Pot, meet kettle.

    Anyway, let me put forth a few more arguments:

    Notice that I put numbers next to each of the quotations. I’ll make arguments sustaining my points according to the numbering, though not necessarily in that order.

    I would like to point out that in number 3 you completely dodged my question and my point. Specifically, how can there only be a single inspired translation when Greek words can possibly mean so many things? What I mean is, how could ANY English translation fully contain the pregnant meaning of the sparse Greek words agape theou? Unless you plan on foot-noting the entire translation, some meaning content will be lost. That is why it is helpful to have multiple versions and to refer back to the original languages.

    Next, according to number 4 it seems that the character of the people doing the translating work is important. Why? God can use anybody. He used a mass murder, one who tried to destroy the church to become its leading proponent throughout a large portion of the world. God used a man who disobeyed Him directly about how to handle a situation, yet Moses is still considered one of the great leaders of the Bible. David was an adulterer and a murderer. For that matter, Balaam was an unrepentant pagan, but God used him. Argument from character or even religious background means nothing, for God can use anybody to do anything.

    Again, how can someone trust the KJV Bible when they know that it is based on Erasmus’ work, not on the actual original manuscripts? Erasmus, as I have previously laid out, made up his own translation of the Greek text from the Latin for Revelation 22:16-21. He made up the word of God, adding to the book of Revelation words that do not appear in any manuscript of Greek ever found! Why are you basing your faith on that?

    In response to 5, how about this:

    Assuming you believe, as most KJVOs do, that God only uses one translation per language, let me ask you this about some verses. In Mark 1:2-3 we see the following:
    2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
    3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

    Verse 2 is based on Mark’s own translation of the Hebrew text, whereas verse 3 is based on the LXX version of the Greek. According to your theory, only one of them is inspired, since they are two different translations, one being Mark’s the other being from the LXX.. Which one is correct?

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    Last post and closing argument.
    You said:

    How do you know “not just any Bible?” Where in scripture is the King James Version mentioned as the Only Inspired Translation? Is there only 1 translation viable per language?

    I don't know that there is only one translation per language, but it would make sense. A lot of translations are confusing. How do you know which one to trust? Not everything out there is a bible even if it's labeled bible. There's a lot of junk out there.

    You said,

    Not in any version I read are these changes made, except for two. Lucifer means Morning Star, it is a Hebrew word. The only difference is translating the name. Next, I refuse to use the tetragrammaton, especially spelled wrong (there is no J in Hebrew, nor is there a V, they are Y and W respectively). Otherwise, none of those changes occur that I know of, at least not wholesale as you seem to be claiming. Sure, there are a few small changes in terms of here it is JC, there it is LJC, and there it is just J. However, it is only a minor difference in wording, but no difference in meaning. (is Jesus somehow different from the Lord Jesus Christ in terms of who it refers to?)

    The King James Bible is more specific and to the point than any version out there and it's been around longer. And as for the copyright which we discussed earlier, God Himself would not copyright His Word. If He did, we wouldn't have it today. The reason you have copyrgihted Bibles now is so they (the authors) don't loose any money.

    In my last post I said:

    This is false. The Catholic Church started around 325 A.D. God has always had a remnant.

    And you answered:

    LOL. Not even touching this, it is so fallacious.

    Why not touch on this? It's the truth.

    You said:

    Next, according to number 4 it seems that the character of the people doing the translating work is important. Why? God can use anybody. He used a mass murder, one who tried to destroy the church to become its leading proponent throughout a large portion of the world. God used a man who disobeyed Him directly about how to handle a situation, yet Moses is still considered one of the great leaders of the Bible. David was an adulterer and a murderer. For that matter, Balaam was an unrepentant pagan, but God used him. Argument from character or even religious background means nothing, for God can use anybody to do anything.

    True, God can use anybody, but He won't use someone, like a spiritualist, who is after the devil's heart. I'll tell you about the people you listed.

    #1 - You said:

    He used a mass murder, one who tried to destroy the church to become its leading proponent throughout a large portion of the world.

    This refers to Paul, even though you don't use his name. Or did you forget it because of all thoses different translations? You didn't know what to call him. Yes, he was a murderer and tried to destroy the church. If you notice, he did it in God's name. He thought they were doing wrong. Jesus showed him the way and he got saved and became a mighty warrior for God.

    You mentioned Moses.
    Once Moses submitted to God everything was ok. So he slipped up, who doesn't.

    David was an adulter and a murderer. He suffered for it big time, but he was still after God's heart and God loved him.

    Balaam was only after what he could get, yet God used him. None of the people you mentioned even wanted anything to do with the devil. God isn't going to use any spiritualist to write the Bible. It just doesn't work that way. Nor will he use the Catholic Church because the devil has those people as well.

    So the age old argument continues... Which Bible is best? I'm sticking with my King James Bible.

    I don't know that I have the room to discuss other verses in this post, so if anybody is interested, we can discuss/argue it in another thread.

    One more thing: John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth.

    God Himself through the Holy Spirit has shown me truth through the King James Bible. He will show those of you who want to really know the truth of this matter. I was saved by the King James bible, so it's good enough for me. The Lord still speaks to me using the King James. I don't need all those other versions. They don't all say the same thing.

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    Final Post

    You said:
    I don't know that there is only one translation per language, but it would make sense. A lot of translations are confusing. How do you know which one to trust? Not everything out there is a bible even if it's labeled bible. There's a lot of junk out there.
    I know which one to trust because I am able to do the work in the original language myself. I am able to compare manuscripts so that I get what the most original reading is. In other words, I think critically. I am not going to take a man’s word about God’s word.

    As for saying only one translation per language, I think you slipped up. If you will note in my last post, I pointedly referred to a passage (Mark 1:2-3) where two different translations into Greek of the Hebrew are used. If the Bible allows for multiple translations, why do you not? This is a point that destroys the KJVO position quite soundly. If the Bible uses multiple translations, why can Christians not?

    You said:
    The King James Bible is more specific and to the point than any version out there and it's been around longer. And as for the copyright which we discussed earlier, God Himself would not copyright His Word. If He did, we wouldn't have it today. The reason you have copyrighted Bibles now is so they (the authors) don't loose any money.
    A mistake that has lasted a few hundred years does not make it any less a mistake. After all, there are still those who deny that Jesus ever existed, and they have been around a long time, does that mean they are right?

    I think you misunderstand what copyrighting entails, nor did you engage my argument at all about copyrighting, so I’ll just take that point and move on.

    You said:
    True, God can use anybody, but He won't use someone, like a spiritualist, who is after the devil's heart. I'll tell you about the people you listed.
    He won’t use someone after the devil’s heart? What about Saul, the King? What about the Ammonites? What about the Assyrians? The entire OT contradicts this statement!

    You said:
    God Himself through the Holy Spirit has shown me truth through the King James Bible. He will show those of you who want to really know the truth of this matter. I was saved by the King James bible, so it's good enough for me. The Lord still speaks to me using the King James. I don't need all those other versions. They don't all say the same thing.
    And God has revealed to me by His Spirit working in and through me that other translations are His word. Who is right? Personal experience of God is quite subjective, and God often sounds like what we want to hear. After all, even Christians are still marred by sin, the noetic effects of the fall (meaning that sin clouds our minds) do not disappear until we are glorified with Him.
    So the age old argument continues... Which Bible is best? I'm sticking with my King James Bible.
    If the argument is which is best, the newer translations win. But which is best is not, or at least should not be the point. The point is, how does God work? The KJVOs want to put God into a little box and dictate to Him how He can and cannot work. The KJVOs want to close their eyes to scholarship in general, calling it evil and satanic and anything else they can say in order not to deal with it. As long as they can anathematize anyone who uses such methods, they can feel comfy in their artificial world, believing that they have defeated the “bogeyman” of modern scholarship.

    The truth, however, is much less enjoyable to them.

    The truth is that they have no real justification for their beliefs other than blind faith. Is it faith in God? No! It is faith in a translation!

    You see, they claim that the “doctrine of preservation” shows that God kept the Bible the same for all those years. However, there is no proof of it! In fact, the earliest that any of the Byzantine Text Type is found is maybe 500 AD. Not only that, but the KJV does not even agree with the Byzantine text type, it agrees with the Textus Receptus which was compiled by ONE MAN who was missing verses of the Bible so he translated them from Latin into Greek.

    Who would use a Bible based on a translation, not from the actual language that the Bible was written in, but rather on a translation back into the language the Bible was written in? If the King James Version is a translation of a perfectly preserved document, why is it that not a single Greek manuscript matches the King James? What was then preserved? Obviously not the text!

    The bottom line is that the doctrine of KJVO is based on blind faith, a faith that is misplaced in men and not in God, and it is from fear. They are afraid of what scholarship can tell them, they are afraid that if they accept part of it, they need to take in it all. They are afraid to have their faith challenged. Therefore, they declare those who do not use the KJV as heterodox, if not heretical. But doesn’t that go against what scripture itself teaches? Shouldn’t we, as the body of Christ, be more worried about the unsaved than about attacking each other? Shouldn’t we be more worried about our relationship with God than what translation we use?

    John 17:15-26
    15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
    16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
    18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
    19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
    20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
    24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
    25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
    26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

    At the end of the day, it is the love we show each other that matters, the love that comes from God. Admittedly, we need to keep each other from doctrinal error, but we do so through love. Calvin said we should look at the world through the "spectacles of scripture." What he forgot to add is that the tint is love.

    God bless.

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