The Absolute Oneness of God

freelight · Nov 28, 2015

Trinity concept.............

Trinity concept.............

Crucible said:
Why are Jews and Muslims so incapable of understanding the Trinity? The Trinity is logically sound and yet people like to make fictions and straw men out of it to argue against it.
It's not a difficult thing to understand, it's simply just out of the realm of conventional reasoning much like a lot of other things that are otherwise still true.

Orthodox Jews and Muslims are fine with their understanding of God as 'One', in a pure monotheistic sense. Therefore, there is no need or necessity for a Deity of Trinitarian formation. A relational-context for 3 divine personalities making up One God just doesn't make sense to their concept of divine Oneness, but if you'd like to conceptualize 'God' as a Trinity, have at it. Frankly,...it doesn't matter beyond a relational/conceptual point of view, so represents just one view of 'God'...among others. I have fun with a Unitarian view of God since it makes the most sense, humanly speaking from a simple relational point of view. If you want to wholly divinitize Jesus and make a 'God' out of him according to an orthodox creedal definition,....that's your prerogative....but know that a lot of evidence can be shared that challenges that 'assumption' to support a more Unitarian view (or a host of others).

'Oneness' Christians don't understand that, if you put Isaiah and the New Testament side by side, the Trinity is absolutely inescapable- you can't actually come to a conclusion of 'oneness'.

Oneness Christians have their own spin of course, in various modalistic fashions. Still they maintain some sense of 'monotheism', looking at the 3 persons as modes, aspects or manifestions of The One God. Its all the same beef,...just sliced and diced differently. So :idunno:

Arius was mistaken, despite his resilience in the matter.

Actually I think Arius was pretty awesome (as good as any),...and the movement he started did gain momentum and acceptance with those in power during some seasons of the 'Arian Controversy',....it was kind of a tug of war,...but then the Athanasius Creed won the political vote and the powers that be just happened to have enough clout at a significant juncture in time to make it the official church-state dogma, while Arianism never made a full come-back, at least within the upper echelon of the Empire. Arianism in its various forms still exists today, and I see no reason to assume that the orthodox formulation of the Trinity that eventually won the day (and made Jesus 100% God and Man, a full on 'combo-pack') is anymore authentic than an Arian Christology,...again...just different points of view, conceptions of Christology. Apples or oranges.

Of course pros and cons for each perspective or position can be debated....and other views inbetween or related.

See: The Arian Catholic Church

Ben Masada · Nov 30, 2015

The Absolute Oneness of God

Aimiel said:
Do you understand that God chose the foolish things of this world to confound those who profess to be wise?

They don't confound me, I tell you. I don't walk by faith but by sight based on Logic upon which I wrote this thread.

Elia · Dec 3, 2015

Crucible said:
Why are Jews and Muslims so incapable of understanding the Trinity? The Trinity is logically sound

Bs"d

Since when is "1 + 1 + 1 = 1" logically sound??

and yet people like to make fictions and straw men out of it to argue against it.
It's not a difficult thing to understand, it's simply just out of the realm of conventional reasoning much like a lot of other things that are otherwise still true.
'Oneness' Christians don't understand that, if you put Isaiah and the New Testament side by side, the Trinity is absolutely inescapable- you can't actually come to a conclusion of 'oneness'. Arius was mistaken, despite his resilience in the matter.

The whole trinity concept is nothing more than an attempt to turn the two gods of Christianity, the Father and the son, into one.

It is impossible to make the concept "2 = 1" logical.

That trinity concept is NOWHERE to be found in the Bible.

On the other hand, the whole Bible, even the NT, teaches that God is one:

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"

"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible

So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.

"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible

What is so hard to understand about the Biblical fact that God is one, and not three?

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

Elia · Dec 3, 2015

OCTOBER23 said:
So, the Question is ...........

Was JESUS a PRIME GOD

Bs"d

No. There is only ONE God who is ONE, and that is Y-H-W-H. Besides Him there is no god.

Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".

But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.

Exodus 29:46 “They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.”

Numbers 15:41 “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.”

Deuteronomy 10:20-21 “Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.”

Joshua 24:18 “We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.”

II Samuel 22:32 “For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?”

I Chronicles 16:14 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth”

II Chronicles 13:10 “As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him”

Psalm 31:14 “But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.”

Psalm 89:6 “For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?”

Psalm 91:2 “I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

Psalm 100:3 “Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.”

Psalm 105:7 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;”

Psalm 118:27 “Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.”

Psalm 140:6 “O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God”

Isaiah 25:1 “O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.”

Isaiah 41:13 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;”

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;”

Isaiah 51:15 “For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name”

Jeremiah 3:22-23 “Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God”

Jeremiah 10:10 “But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;”

Jeremiah 31:18 “Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.”

Habakkuk 1:12 “O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.”

And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?

Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”

Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”

Elia · Dec 3, 2015

OCTOBER23 said:
BEN MASADA,

There is 9 years left for JESUS and THE FATHER to return in Sept. 21, 2024.

Bs"d

He should have been back 2000 years ago:

Let us take a look at the prophetic qualities of Jesus.

In Matthew 4:17 he claims that the kingdom of heaven is at hand..

Now, almost 2000 years later, the kingdom is still not here.

This claim of Jesus to return soon in order to judge the whole world is all over the New Testament. Look for instance in Revelations 1:1-3, idem 3:11, idem 22:6, 10-12, 20. Everywhere here is spoken about a soon return and the early Christian communities were expecting the return of Christ in their lifetimes, as we can read in I Corinthians 7:29, Romans 13:11-12, and I Peter 4:7. Their belief in a return of Christ in their lifetimes was based upon very clear, not to be misunderstood statements of Jesus. Look for an impressive prophesy in Mark 13:24-30: "The sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light. And the stars of heaven will fall and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then he shall send his angels and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven ….. Verily I say to you, that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done." -----See also Matthew 24:29-35 and Luke 21;25-33. .

This generation passed away almost 2000 years ago, and no one has seen him coming back on the clouds to establish his kingdom of peace and gather in his elected Christians.

In Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus says: "For the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom." See also Mark 9:1

Did anybody see him coming in his kingdom? Is every man already rewarded according to his works?... But some of them would not die until they would have seen him coming in his kingdom!...Are they still around today?....Even Methuselah didn't live that long!

From this we must conclude that Jesus has a very poor resume as a prophet. What does the Holy Torah that the only eternal G.d gave to the Jewish people say about this?

Deuteronomy 18:20-22: "But the prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart; how shall we know the word that the LORD has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing follows not, nor come to pass, this is the thing that the LORD has not spoken, but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you shall not be afraid of him."

Here G.d commands the Jewish people to execute false prophets, who are prophets whose prophecies do not come true. Jesus is a perfect example of a prophet whose prophecy did not come true. See also the prophecy concerning the three days and three nights that did not come true.

And what about the miracles that he is supposed to have done?

Jesus placed himself in the place of G.d (John 10:30, 14:9), and he demanded to be worshipped like Him (John 5:23), and people did worship him (Matthew 2:11, 8:2, 14:33, John 9:38*).

So if he really performed these miracles, then applies to him the law of G.d that says: "If there arise among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or wonder, and the sign or wonder comes to pass whereof he spake onto thee, saying: Let us go after other gods which thou has not known, and let us serve them; Thou shall not hearken to the words of that prophet or dreamer of dreams, for the LORD (Y-H-W-H) your G.d proveth you, whether you love the LORD thy G.d with all your heart and all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your G.d and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and cleave to Him. And that prophet or dreamer of dreams shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your G.d which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy G.d commanded thee to walk in. So shall thou put the evil away from the midst of thee." Deuteronomy 13:1-5.

"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

Elia · Dec 3, 2015

OCTOBER23 said:
BEN MASADA,

There is 9 years left for JESUS and THE FATHER to return in Sept. 21, 2024.

I am sure that you will see that there are definitely 2 Gods

Bs"d

The whole Bible teaches that there is only ONE God.

Worshipping two gods is polytheism = idolatry:

"Know therefore this day, and consider it in your heart, that the LORD, he is G.d in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39

"See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with me." Deuteronomy..32:39

"I am He, before Me no god was created, neither shall there be after Me." Isaiah 43:10

"Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel and his redeemer, the LORD of hosts, I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no god." Isaiah 44:6

"I am the LORD, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18

This Jewish G.d is one, as it is written; "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our G.d, .Y-H-W-H is one." Deuteronomy 6:4 The King James translation translates this as: "Hear Israel, the LORD our G.d is one LORD." . Here in Deuteronomium 6:4 too, the word "the LORD" stands for Y-H-W-H in the Hebrew text. When we insert G.d's name into this translation, we get; "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H our G.d is one Y-H-W-H." This is not a correct translation, the correct translation is as above mentioned; "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our G.d, Y-H-W-H is one."

Mark 12:29-34. Here Jesus himself, when asked what is the first commandment, quotes Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear Israel, the Lord our G.d is one Lord." And in verse 32 he is answered: "There is one G.d, and there is no other than He", upon which Jesus replies: "You are not far from the kingdom of G.d."

So also for Jesus there clearly is one G.d who is one.

And what about Paul, who wrote more than half of all the books of the New Testament, what does he think about it?

Romans 3:30: "Seeing it is one G.d, …"

I Corinthians 8:4: "We know that an idol is nothing in the world and that there is no other G.d than one."

idem verse 6: "But to us there is but one G.d …"

Ephesians 4:6; "One G.d and father of all, …"

I Timothy 2:5; "For there is one G.d …"

And look what James says in James 2:19; "You believe that there is one G.d, and you do well."

Also in the New Testament there is one G.d who is one.

Please take good notice that nowhere here is spoken about, or even hinted at a trinity.

The concept of trinity is nowhere to be found in the Old or the New Testament.

"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

Elia · Dec 3, 2015

OCTOBER23 said:
Since , JESUS was the God of the Old Testament,

you have been Worshiping JESUS since your youth.

Bs"d

The God of the Tanach, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is Y-H-W-H:

Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".

But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.

Exodus 29:46 “They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.”

Numbers 15:41 “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.”

Deuteronomy 10:20-21 “Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.”

Joshua 24:18 “We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.”

II Samuel 22:32 “For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?”

I Chronicles 16:14 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth”

II Chronicles 13:10 “As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him”

Psalm 31:14 “But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.”

Psalm 89:6 “For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?”

Psalm 91:2 “I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

Psalm 100:3 “Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.”

Psalm 105:7 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;”

Psalm 118:27 “Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.”

Psalm 140:6 “O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God”

Isaiah 25:1 “O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.”

Isaiah 41:13 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;”

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;”

Isaiah 51:15 “For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name”

Jeremiah 3:22-23 “Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God”

Jeremiah 10:10 “But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;”

Jeremiah 31:18 “Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.”

Habakkuk 1:12 “O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.”

And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?

Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”

Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”

Elia · Dec 3, 2015

jamie said:
When Jacob wrestled with God, did he see his face?

So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face and my life is preserved.” (Genesis 32:30 NKJV)

Bs"d

Jacob didn't wrestle with God, he wrestled with an angel.

Do you think that God couldn't overcome Jacob??

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

Elia · Dec 3, 2015

Jamie Gigliotti said:
Having His Son share in His oneness and take on the form of a man is a far cry from goat or a statue.
Born of a virgin, Emmanuel... God with us. Isiaih 7:14

Bs"d

There is no virgin birth in the Tanach.

That concept is only found in pagan religions.

For the finer details look here: Isaiah 7 study; "Behold the young woman is pregnant..."

"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

Elia · Dec 3, 2015

j4jesus09 said:
We can't really discuss matters if you don't even believe in the new testament bro. Jesus rose from the dead by the power of God. Simple.

Bs"d

Why do you think that he was resurrected?

Even in the New Testament there is NOT ONE SINGLE WITNESS of his resurrection. No man saw him get up from the grave and walk away.

Oh, but he appeared to his disciples. Well, in that case, can you explain to me why nobody recognized him? Look in Luke 24:13-35. This speaks about the men on the road to Emmaus. He met them, but they didn't recognize him.

The same thing happens in John 20:14; "At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, ... "
She thought he was the gardener....

John 21:4 "Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. He called out to them, ..."

And again they didn't recognize him.

Isn't it strange that they didn't recognize the person with whom they were so close for years?

But the NT gives the answer to that strange phenomena. Look in Mark 16:12-13 "Afterward Jesus appeared IN A DIFFERENT FORM to two of them while they were walking in the country."
So it was a person "in a different form" from the previous well known person who appeared to them, that's why they didn't recognize him.

A person in different form from the old Christ, who was not recognized by the people he interacted with for years, only days before, doesn't that sounds like an impostor who is pretending to be the resurrected messiah?

That also explains why some of the disciples doubted when the "resurrected messiah" appeared to them: "When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted." Matt 28:17.

Can you imagine that the authentic messiah appears to you and you still doubt?
Apparently he was not so authentic.

If the disciples, who saw the "resurrected Christ" with their own eyes, still doubted, why then do the Christians 2000 years later, who have nothing to go by but stories, don't doubt?

"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

Elia · Dec 3, 2015

Ask Mr. Religion said:
Said perfection requires a component of love that is absent a solitary Godhead, thereby requiring said love be made manifest by creation. Hence a contingent being, not the most perfect being that can be imagined.

Epic fail sans a triune Godhead.

AMR

Bs"d

What part of "God is one" is it you don't understand?

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

Crucible · Dec 3, 2015

Elia said:
Bs"d

What part of "God is one" is it you don't understand?

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

The Trinity is one. What do you not understand of the Trinity?

Elia · Dec 3, 2015

Totton Linnet said:
There is absolutely only one God.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit...one God.

Bs"d

There is absolutely only one God who is one, and that is Y-H-W-H:

שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

The Jews until this day fulfill this commandment. Every morning they put upon their arm and upon their forehead their phylacteries, (prayer belts) that consist of black straps with black leather cubes, that contain parchment upon which is written this Biblical text that says that God is one. Upon the doorposts of the houses of the religious Jews there are small boxes or containers that also contain parchment upon which is written that God is one. During the morning and evening prayers the above text is recited which says that God is one.

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no Christ, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.

"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

Elia · Dec 3, 2015

iamaberean said:
The 'Law' has been done away with, we now live with those of faith, Abraham being our father.

Bs"d

The law stands for ever. That is what God said:

“So you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this same day I will have brought your armies out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day throughout your generations as an everlasting ordinance."
Ex 12:17

"In the tabernacle of meeting, outside the veil which is before the Testimony, Aaron and his sons shall tend it from evening until morning before the Lord. It shall be a statute forever to their generations on behalf of the children of Israel."
Ex 27:21]

"This shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwellings: you shall eat neither fat nor blood.’”
Leviticus 3:17

"You shall eat neither bread nor parched grain nor fresh grain until the same day that you have brought an offering to your God; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings."
Leviticus 23:14

“‘Now if you as a community unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands the Lord gave Moses— 23 any of the Lord’s commands to you through him, from the day the Lord gave them and continuing through the generations to come" Numbers 15:23

There is much, much more like this, saying the law stands forever, for all generations.

There is no such a thing as: "The messiah will come and abolish the law". It just doesn't exist.

And, of course, the christian messiah himself also said the exact opposite of what the Christians say:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Matt 5

So also your messiah agrees: The law stands forever.

It is only Paul who comes up with the idea that the law is abolished, but who is Paul that he thinks he can abolish the law??

Jesus is the Messiah spoken of in the Old testament as the Redeemer. The Redeemer is a man as this scripture points out:

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
The latter day was the last days of Law when Jesus, the Redeemer came!

He didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies, therefore he was not the messiah.

It really is that simple.

"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

Elia · Dec 3, 2015

j4jesus09 said:
1John 1:22:24
Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.

Bs"d

Who ever worships anything or anybody besides the one and only God Y-H-W-H is an idol worshipper.

The NT brought a new man-god, and with that leads to idolatry:

“If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for Y-H-W-H your God is testing you to know whether you love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after Y-H-W-H your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which Y-H-W-H your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.

If anyone secretly entices you—even if it is your brother, your father’s son or your mother’s son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend—saying, “Let us go worship other gods,” whom neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7*any of the gods of the peoples that are around you, whether near you or far away from you, from one end of the earth to the other, 8*you must not yield to or heed any such persons. Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them. 9*But you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10*Stone them to death for trying to turn you away from Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11*Then all Israel shall hear and be afraid, and never again do any such wickedness."
Deut 13

"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

Elia · Dec 3, 2015

iamaberean said:
How do you explain Gen 1:26 if there is only one God?

Bs"d

Genesis 1:26; "Let us make man" If anybody finds in a text the word "us", would any normal person assume that it refers to one person with a multi-personality disorder? Of course not.

But why then, when Christians see the word "us" in the Bible, do they think that?

Gen 1:26 is used as a 'proof' that there is more than one God, or one God who is not one, eventhough the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God who is one. and despite the fact that there are several other valid explanations for the plural word "us". One explanation is that it is a majestic plural as used by kings. Another possible explanation is that God was talking to the angels.

Some Christians try to refute the last argument by saying that the angels didn't create. They point to Genesis 1:1; "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." They say: 'God was the creator, and not the angels.' However, it is a given in Jewish law that an emissary is equal to the one who sends him. When a Jewish man marries a woman through an agent, the legal effect is the same as when he marries her personally. A good Biblical example of this is to be found in Genesis 19 where is spoken about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God sent two angels to destroy the cities, the angels said to Lot in verse 13: "For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it." Upon this Lot says to his sons in law: "Up, get out of this place; for the LORD is about to destroy the city." Lot didn't say: "The angels are going to destroy the city" He said: "The LORD (Y-H-W-H in the Hebrew text) is going to destroy the city". And in verse 29 it is written: "So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley...." So the angels were send by God to destroy the cities, but God is considered to be the one who did it, because He was the one who sent them. So why shouldn't the same hold true for the creation?

But one way or the other, no plural created man. Look in Genesis 5:1; "When God created man ..." In Hebrew this is: "bara Elohiem adam" Here the verb "to create", in Hebrew "bara", is in the singular, indicating clearly that Elohiem who created man is one. The same goes for the very first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The word created is here written in the singular; it says "bara". If God was a plural, it should have been "baru".

BUT, back to the pronouns, Y-H-W-H says the following:

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

It says "I" am Y-H-W-H. And, as we all know, "I" is singular, and not plural, and therefore no three persons in Y-H-W-H. Otherwise He would have said: "WE are Y-H-W-H."

But no such thing, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H".

No trinity.

Another example of a pronoun:

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

As we see, it says that YOU, in the Hebrew singular, not plural are Y-H-W-H.

Again, no YOU, plural, are Y-H-W-H, but YOU singular, are Y-H-W-H.

So no three persons in God.

Another one:

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Clear what? It doesn't say: “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: WE are the first and WE are the last; apart from US there is no God.”

No such a thing, it is all SINGULAR.

Another one:

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”

Again, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H", and not "WE are Y-H-W-H" Such a thing simply doesn't exist.

I can go on and on with this, but these examples suffice. There is NO plurality in God.

And the word "us" when God speaks to the angels, does not imply otherwise.

"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

Elia · Dec 3, 2015

Nazaroo said:
Sadly, the Jewish sages got it wrong.

When the LORD asserts He is One (Deut. 6:4),
it cannot be a mere crude head counting.
That is the over-literal, primitive ignorance of the bedouin sheep herder,
and is the same inspiration behind Islam.

So that is your excuse for being a polytheist and an idol worshipper?

If 'God' is really "One" merely in the sense of one person, Jews might as well make peace
with the Muslims and unite against Christianity and all other multiple-god religions.

At least you are smart enough to put Christianity into the catagory of "multiple-god religion".

Now the whole Bible teaches that there is only ONE God who IS ONE.

The Torah teaches that there is one G.d, Y-H-W-H, who is a jealous G.d, who allows no other gods beside Him. See Exodus 20:3. G.d's name, Y-H-W-H, appears almost 7000 times in the Old Testament. The King James translation translates this name as "The LORD", with small capital letters. This G.d is the one and only G.d for the Jews, as it is written in the Hebrew Bible;

"Know therefore this day, and consider it in your heart, that the LORD, he is G.d in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39

"See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with me." Deuteronomy..32:39

"I am He, before Me no god was created, neither shall there be after Me." Isaiah 43:10

"Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel and his redeemer, the LORD of hosts, I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no god." Isaiah 44:6

"I am the LORD, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18

This Jewish G.d is one, as it is written; "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our G.d, .Y-H-W-H is one." Deuteronomy 6:4 The King James translation translates this as: "Hear Israel, the LORD our G.d is one LORD." . Here in Deuteronomium 6:4 too, the word "the LORD" stands for Y-H-W-H in the Hebrew text. When we insert G.d's name into this translation, we get; "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H our G.d is one Y-H-W-H." This is not a correct translation, the correct translation is as above mentioned; "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our G.d, Y-H-W-H is one."

The fact that G.d is one is so important that G.d commands this to be in the heart. It must be diligently taught to the children, the Jews must talk about it when they sit in their houses, when they walk upon the way, when they lie down and when they rise up. They must bind it as a sign upon their arm, and it must be frontlets between their eyes, and they must write it upon the doorposts of their houses and upon their gates. See Deuteronomy 6:4-9 --

The Jews until this day do this. Every morning they put upon their arm and upon their forehead their phylacteries, (prayer belts) that consist of black straps with black leather cubes, that contain parchment upon which is written this Biblical text that says that G.d is one. Upon the doorposts of the houses of the religious Jews there are small boxes or containers that also contain parchment upon which is written that G.d is one.

So for the Jewish people there is one G.d, and that one G.d is one.

One means one. That is not two, not three, not three in one, not two in one, but ONE.

Surprising as it may be, in the New Testament G.d is also one. Look for this fact at the following verses: Mark 12:29-34. Here Jesus himself, when asked what is the first commandment, quotes Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear Israel, the Lord our G.d is one Lord." And in verse 32 he is answered: "There is one G.d, and there is no other than He", upon which Jesus replies: "You are not far from the kingdom of G.d."

So also for Jesus there clearly is one G.d who is one.

And what about Paul, who wrote more than half of all the books of the New Testament, what does he think about it?

Romans 3:30: "Seeing it is one G.d, …"

I Corinthians 8:4: "We know that an idol is nothing in the world and that there is no other G.d than one."

idem verse 6: "But to us there is but one G.d …"

Ephesians 4:6; "One G.d and father of all, …"

I Timothy 2:5; "For there is one G.d …"

And look what James says in James 2:19; "You believe that there is one G.d, and you do well."

Also in the New Testament there is one G.d who is one.

Please take good notice that nowhere here is spoken about, or even hinted at a trinity.

The concept of trinity is nowhere to be found in the Old or the New Testament.

But most Jews really aren't as stupid as muslim camel jockeys,
and Ben Masada knows better.

When the LORD asserts He is ONE, He does mean a unity:

When God says He is one, He means that He is ONE.

One means one. That is not two, not three, not three in one, not two in one, but ONE.

Israel was divided when the Messiah came:

The messiah hasn't come yet. We know that because the messianic prophecies are not yet fulfilled.

"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

Elia · Dec 3, 2015

Crucible said:
The Trinity is one. What do you not understand of the Trinity?

Bs"d

Everything.

And one is one, and three is not one, just like "trinity" is not one but three.

Ben Masada · Dec 3, 2015

The Absolute Oneness of God

Elia said:
Bs"d

Gen 1:26 is used as a 'proof' that there is more than one God, or one God who is not one, eventhough the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God who is one. and despite the fact that there are several other valid explanations for the plural word "us". One explanation is that it is a majestic plural as used by kings. Another possible explanation is that God was talking to the angels.

This is my understanding of Gen. 1:26:

Impersonation of God's Attributes - Genesis 1:26

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over... the whole earth."

The above passage of Genesis has been for years the trump card in the hands of Trinitarians to drop at the right time in the assumed thought that it will guarantee them to clean up the table, so to speak. Well, let them think again, because I have news. It's no longer that easy.

Elohim is incorporeal, and incorporeality reflects no image. But then again, how to harmonize the use of the pronouns in the plural form? The attributes of God, which are parts of His essence, were personally involved in the formation of man.

Bear in mind that only in the creation of man was the statement issued: To make man at God's image. Since God has no visible image, and man does, it's only obvious that man's image would be according to God's attributes. Therefore, His attributes in a relative portion, were the active agent in the formation of man.

Now, it's imperative to focus on the pronouns used by the sacred writer, since the pronouns are anyways what Trinitarians use to think they have made their day. "Let US make MAN in OUR image and likeness. And let THEM have dominion over everything on earth."

Now, focus on the word MAN. It is in the singular form. Nevertheless, the purpose is for THEM to dominate the earth. If THEM were a reference to man, a clarification would be in order to explain the discrepancy in the Grammar. I mean, that it would be a reference to all men. This lack of clarification was not a lapse of the author, but intentional will to direct our minds to the attributes of God, which took part in the formation of man.

It's interesting and just convenient for Trinitarians to rapidly refer "us" and "our" to God Himself and hide any word of explanation on the plural pronoun "them," which could not be a reference to man. I hope they do not do this on purpose because it would be spiritual cruelty to hide the truth.

I hope we have settled this issue. Since "them" is not a reference to man but to the attributes of God, it's only obvious that "us" and "our" are not references to God Himself but to His attributes. Therefore, the Creator of the Universe is He Who has dominion over the whole of the Universe through man by way of His attributes.

Conclusion:

It's more than obvious that Israel could not uphold the banner of absolute Monotheism in God, and start the Scriptures with statements of plurality in God. The whole issue therefore, was personification of attributes.

Elia · Dec 6, 2015

Bs"d

שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

The Jews until this day fulfill this commandment. Every morning they put upon their arm and upon their forehead their phylacteries, (prayer belts) that consist of black straps with black leather cubes, that contain parchment upon which is written this Biblical text that says that God is one. Upon the doorposts of the houses of the religious Jews there are small boxes or containers that also contain parchment upon which is written that God is one. During the morning and evening prayers the above text is recited which says that God is one.

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no Christ, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

The Absolute Oneness of God

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