User Tag List

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 54

Thread: One on One: Can a Christin sin? Sozo and Knight discuss.

  1. #16
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    26,925
    Thanks
    389
    Thanked 2,337 Times in 1,101 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    128 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1099925
    Quote Originally Posted by Sozo
    What did you think of CabinetMaker's post?
    I think it's excellent! I agree with 100%.

    I also agree with the other ways the word sin is used. Like the way Paul uses it in his epistles.

    I now know you like CabinetMakers use of the word sin what do you think of Paul's use of the word sin?
    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

  2. #17
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    26,925
    Thanks
    389
    Thanked 2,337 Times in 1,101 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    128 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1099925
    Sozo..... I think I have all the pertinent posts copied into this thread. Only you and I can post here.
    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

  3. #18
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    26,925
    Thanks
    389
    Thanked 2,337 Times in 1,101 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    128 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1099925
    Quote Originally Posted by Sozo
    In order for YOU to be a contradiction to God, you have to have a life that is contrary to God.
    No, not necessarily, it isn't that your life is contrary to God, instead it's just that you did something that God would not want you to do. (pretty simple)

    I'll say it your way...

    In order to do anything that God does not want us to do, you have to have a life that is apart from God.
    Nope. That's a strawman or a false dilemma or whatever you want to call it. Christians are in God's good graces, nothing can change that. But we can do things that are against God's will. We call those things sins.

    Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.

    Is your life in the flesh, or in the Spirit? Is it in your body that is dead to God, or is it in your Spirit that is alive to God?
    I am alive to God, which is the very reason why my sins are covered. (Rom 4:7)

    You may think that this is being semantical, or mystical, or impractical (I don't know), but I do know that Paul spent a great deal of his time trying to get this point across in all of his letters, because it was important to him (and therefore important to God), that a believer understand who he is in Christ. Who is the real (I'll use your TOL ID) Knight?
    Spare me the dramatics. (I already have one 14 year old daughter to deal with)

    You fail to acknowledge any other use of the word sin than what you want to use. Because of that you will always be swimming upstream and flying in the face clear Bible verses. Paul didn't make that same mistake. Paul used sin as a noun and a verb.

    Are you a sinner or are you a child of God? Are you unrighteous or are you righteous? Are you in the flesh or in the Spirit? Are you under the Law or under grace?
    I am a child of God, righteous, in the Spirit and not under the law which of course is why my sins are covered. (Romans 4:7)

    Your identity is in Christ. He is your life. You are holy, righteous, blameless, complete, free from wrath, free from sin, free from the Law, and free from death.


    Jesus said that everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die.

    Is your body going to die? Of course it is. Was Jesus lying? Of course not. Jesus knew then as Paul explains later that you are not that which dies. The body dies, and in fact is already dead because of sin. The spirit is alive because you are righteous in Him. You are not contrary to God. YOU do not do anything that God does not will. Your flesh does, but that is not who YOU are. YOU are a Christian, a child of God, born of the Spirit.

    For YOU to sin, YOU would have to be in the flesh, under the Law, dead to God.
    Great set-up..... faulty conclusion.

    Christians are not under the law, we are dead to sin, we are under grace etc. But the word sin has a broader meaning which you refuse to acknowledge. Christians can still do what God does not desire that they do and that is referred to as sin by the Apostle Paul. I feel very comfortable using the word sin in the exact same manner as the apostle Paul did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sozo
    I'm confused by your last comment. We are to tell the lost that they need to be perfect. That is a major point in presenting the gospel.
    You are confused I said.... "we need not be perfect" You don't tell the lost that Christians need to be perfect do you? Instead, we are identified with Christ and therefore our sins are covered, that's the liberty we have in Christ.
    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

  4. #19
    Registered User Sozo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    2,619
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    The Christian can sin, but thankfully that sin has already been paid for by the blood of Christ which of course is the liberty that God has so graciously given us.

    Most importantly.... God inspired the apostle Paul to affirm that a Christian can indeed sin. This of course is the death-nail to those that argue that a Christian cannot sin.

    [INDENT]1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. 7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. 9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak [b][size=3]conscience, you sin against Christ.
    I am at a slight disadvantage, having to defend my position with only a portion of the New Testament at my disposal, with your specific dispensational view. Normally I could offer a great many more verses that teach that Christians cannot sin.

    However, the above verse is the only one in the bible that creates a challenge, and always has. The other verses, are not a problem, and if necessary, I will address them too.

    At this point, I do not have a sufficient response to the above verse, and I have no intention on attempting to make it say something it does not.

    I believe that I can only present my case as to why Christians cannot sin, and leave it to the reader to make their own assessment based on the apparent contradictions.

    I agree with you that the word sin can be both a verb and a noun (which is why, that in every use of the term, it is not speaking of something "volitional" ).

    In any case, I will add more tomorrow. It's been a long day.

  5. #20
    Registered User Sozo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    2,619
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    No, not necessarily, it isn't that your life is contrary to God, instead it's just that you did something that God would not want you to do. (pretty simple)
    What do you call the list of things that "God would not want you to do", and where can I find it?

    But we can do things that are against God's will. We call those things sins.

    Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
    The "Lawless deeds" issue was accomplished on the cross. David was speaking of himself, and God's grace. God did much more than "cover" sin, He took it away "Once and for all". Sin is not imputed, because God removed the very thing that defines that we have sin... "The Law".

    You seem to be now adding "God's will" to replace the Law to define sin, but that sin is no longer placed to our account because of our identity with Christ. Why not just keep the Law in place?

    I am alive to God, which is the very reason why my sins are covered.
    You mean taken away, right? The sacrifice of Jesus was not an atonement, but a propitiation. An atonement was never permenant. (The letter to the Hebrews would come in handy here).

    You fail to acknowledge any other use of the word sin than what you want to use.
    I know that the word sin, can simly mean an offense, which may be it's use in 1 Cor 8:12.

    I realize that Paul gives us a great deal of instruction on how God wants us to behave towards one another. How we should treat others in the Body, and how to treat those outside the church. The letters of Paul are filled with such. We can "offend" others, and God does not want us to do those things. We always do those things, that under the Law were defined as sin. If they are not held to our account, then they why confuse believers into believing that they still sin, in which many still refer to themselves as sinners, and they think they must confess the sin, and that continuing in sin can lead to apostasy?

    You are confused I said.... "we need not be perfect" You don't tell the lost that Christians need to be perfect do you? Instead, we are identified with Christ and therefore our sins are covered, that's the liberty we have in Christ.
    We do need to be perfect. And we need to tell the lost that they need to be perfect. It is the same message that God told Abraham, and the same thing that Jesus told the Jews. Paul said that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, because in it the righteousness of God is revealed (God is perfect, and we are not. We need to be perfect). The only way that is possible is to receive His life. In Him we have been made holy, righteous, complete, perfect.

    Man must feel completely helpless, so that he will come to Christ by faith realizing that he can never be perfect on his own.
    Last edited by Sozo; December 30th, 2006 at 09:39 AM.

  6. #21
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    26,925
    Thanks
    389
    Thanked 2,337 Times in 1,101 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    128 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1099925
    Quote Originally Posted by Sozo
    I am at a slight disadvantage, having to defend my position with only a portion of the New Testament at my disposal, with your specific dispensational view. Normally I could offer a great many more verses that teach that Christians cannot sin.
    Actually, if we broadened this topic to include material outside of what is written to the Body of Christ it would be devastating to your position. I was intentionally sticking with verses that nobody could argue weren't to the Body.
    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

  7. #22
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    26,925
    Thanks
    389
    Thanked 2,337 Times in 1,101 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    128 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1099925
    Quote Originally Posted by Sozo
    What do you call the list of things that "God would not want you to do", and where can I find it?
    Does it need a name?

    Sins are sins! There is no special name for a "list of sins" (other than adding an "s" i.e., sin(s) ).

    The "Lawless deeds" issue was accomplished on the cross. David was speaking of himself, and God's grace. God did much more than "cover" sin, He took it away "Once and for all". Sin is not imputed, because God removed the very thing that defines that we have sin... "The Law".
    Correct we are no longer under the Law and that's why when we sin our sin is covered. Again, you fail to acknowledge the broader meaning of the word sin and therefore your view is clouded and complicated.

    Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.

    You seem to be now adding "God's will" to replace the Law to define sin, but that sin is no longer placed to our account because of our identity with Christ. Why not just keep the Law in place?
    Apparently God wanted to free us from the law. We are dead to sin, free from the law but we still have the ability to do things that are wrong or against God's will. We call those things sins. It's just a word we use so that everyone knows what we are talking about.

    The word sin is apparently something Paul felt very comfortable using even in relation to those no longer under the law.

    I know that the word sin, can simly mean an offense, which may be it's use in 1 Cor 8:12.
    And therefore my point is made.

    I realize that Paul gives us a great deal of instruction on how God wants us to behave towards one another. How we should treat others in the Body, and how to treat those outside the church. The letters of Paul are filled with such. We can "offend" others, and God does not want us to do those things. We always do those things, that under the Law were defined as sin. If they are not held to our account, then they why confuse believers into believing that they still sin, in which many still refer to themselves as sinners, and they think they must confess the sin, and that continuing in sin can lead to apostasy?
    That's why it's important to tell believers that in Christ their sins are forgiven, covered, washed as white as the snow! But don't tell them they can't sin because they inherently know they can. Not to mention they will become confused when they read in the Bible that sin is still called sin even for believers.

    We do need to be perfect. And we need to tell the lost that they need to be perfect. It is the same message that God told Abraham, and the same thing that Jesus told the Jews. Paul said that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, because in it the righteousness of God is revealed (God is perfect, and we are not. We need to be perfect). The only way that is possible is to receive His life. In Him we have been made holy, righteous, complete, perfect.

    Man must feel completely helpless, so that he will come to Christ by faith realizing that he can never be perfect on his own.
    No disagreement here.

    So lets cut to the chase.... (two questions)
    1. Why should I be compelled to believe you that we can no longer call sinful behavior sin, knowing that in the Bible sin is called sin even for believers?

    2. You use the word sin or sins for unbelievers for sinful behavior, what word or term do you use for believers who do those same things? Do you have a general term for it?

    Finally, how would you alter the following: (give me your version)

    Question..... Is stealing a sin?
    Answer.... Yes.
    Question.... Can a Christian steal something? Is he physically able?
    Answer.... Yes.
    Question.... Therefore, can a Christian sin?
    Answer... Yes.
    Question... Is a Christian condemned for that sin?
    Answer.... No. Jesus paid the price for that sin. The Christian is forever identified with the payment Jesus made on he cross.
    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

  8. #23
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    26,925
    Thanks
    389
    Thanked 2,337 Times in 1,101 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    128 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1099925
    Quote Originally Posted by Sozo
    However, the above verse is the only one in the bible that creates a challenge, and always has. The other verses, are not a problem, and if necessary, I will address them too.
    I would love that.

    At this point, I do not have a sufficient response to the above verse, and I have no intention on attempting to make it say something it does not.
    Then why not realize that maybe the word sin can be used in a more broad and descriptive way than what you are arguing?

    Why not adjust your position to be more biblically accurate? If it's good enough for the apostle Paul, it's good enough for you! In doing so, you would cause less confusion, make more sense to the unbeliever and the believer and waste far less time defending a position that is so clearly in error.

    I believe that I can only present my case as to why Christians cannot sin, and leave it to the reader to make their own assessment based on the apparent contradictions.
    There is no contradiction!!!

    You have created your own problem by failing to recognize various meanings and uses of a three letter word.
    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

  9. #24
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    26,925
    Thanks
    389
    Thanked 2,337 Times in 1,101 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    128 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1099925
    BREAK IN THE ACTION!!!!

    The Knight vs. Sozo analysis. I think it might be handy to let those reading this "One on One" in on a few important tid-bits.

    WHAT KNIGHT AND SOZO AGREE ON:

    Almost everything! Even aspects of this very thread! Both Sozo and Knight believe that a person is saved by grace through faith and that there is NOTHING that a person can do to add to what Christ has done for us on the cross. P.S. Sozo is one of my all time favorite TOL'ers and I rarely disagree with anything he posts on TOL, I always look forward to reading his posts.

    WHAT KNIGHT AND SOZO DISAGREE ON:

    Junk food and sin.

    Actually to be more precise Sozo believes that once a person becomes a Christian he can no longer sin because the word sin could no longer apply since sin is a transgression of the law and Christians are not under the law. Knight agrees with Sozo that Christians are no longer under the law but that Christians can still sin because sinning has a broader definition and sinning is what we call it when people do things that are wrong (i.e., contrary to God's will).

    Ultimately Knight and Sozo agree on what is truly important yet only disagree on the usage of the word "sin".

    I hope this break in the action helps folks to understand more clearly what is being discussed in this "One on One".
    Last edited by Knight; December 30th, 2006 at 05:35 PM.
    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

  10. #25
    Registered User Sozo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    2,619
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    BREAK IN THE ACTION!!!!

    The Knight vs. Sozo breakdown. I think it might be handy to let those reading this "One on One" in on a few important tid-bits.

    WHAT KNIGHT AND SOZO AGREE ON:

    Almost everything! Even aspects of this very thread! Both Sozo and Knight believe that a person is saved by grace through faith and that there is NOTHING that a person can do to add to what Christ has done for us on the cross. P.S. Sozo is one of my all time favorite TOL'ers and I rarely disagree with anything he posts on TOL, I always look forward to reading his posts.

    WHAT KNIGHT AND SOZO DISAGREE ON:

    Junk food and sin.

    Actually to be more precise Sozo believes that once a person becomes a Christian he can no longer sin because the word sin could no longer apply since sin is a transgression of the law and Christians are not under the law. Knight agrees with Sozo that Christians are no longer under the law but that Christians can still sin because sinning has a broader definition and sinning is what we call it when people do things that are wrong (i.e., contrary to God's will).

    Ultimately Knight and Sozo agree on what is truly important yet only disagree on the usage of the word "sin".

    I hope this break in the action helps folks to understand more clearly what is being discussed in this "One on One".
    Ditto!!

    I'll be back to the action when my wife stops coming up with post holiday chores

  11. #26
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    26,925
    Thanks
    389
    Thanked 2,337 Times in 1,101 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    128 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1099925
    This is from another thread but it's very important so I am posting it here as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sozo
    Primarily, Paul says that we are NOT slaves of sin. Jesus says that those who sin, ARE slaves of sin.

    Paul cannot say we sin, unless he agrees that we are also slaves of sin, or that he disagrees with Jesus.
    Sozo!!! There it is!!! There is your misunderstanding staring you right in the face!!!!! Now is the time to recognize it!

    When Jesus said "those who sin, ARE slaves of sin" He meant it! Jesus didn't preach grace He preached the Law. Those under the law were not sealed as we are in the Body. When those under the law sinned they needed to seek forgiveness! They were once again slaves of sin!

    Paul, on the other hand, was given the gospel of the uncircumcision (Gal 2:7) and he meant it when he said we are not slaves of sin because our sins our covered, washed clean as snow! We still sin but we are free from any effect because we are forever identified with Christ. No more being slaves of sin!! (even though we might still stumble and sin we are not slaves to sin!)

    No contradiction, simply different applications to "pre" and "post" grace messages.
    Last edited by Turbo; December 30th, 2006 at 08:19 PM.
    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

  12. #27
    Registered User Sozo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    2,619
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Question..... Is stealing a sin?
    Answer.... For someone in the flesh, and under the Law, it is.
    Question.... Can a Christian steal something? Is he physically able?
    Answer.... Yes.
    Question.... Therefore, can a Christian sin?
    Answer... No, A Christian is not in the flesh, or under the Law..
    Question... Is a Christian condemned for that?
    Answer.... No. A Christian is free from all condemnation, because they are no longer in the flesh, and no longer under the demands of the Law.

    Now, let me propose something, that we may be able to come to an agreement on, and which you, e4e, lighthouse, and others might be willing to accept. For the sake of space, I am not going to quote a bunch of verses. I think that they will come to mind when appropriate. If you need them, let me know, because I can back up everything I'm saying with them.

    e4e, lighthouse, and I have been rather dogmatic in our stance that a Christian is not someone who does not do wrong in the flesh, but the issue is that we are not in the flesh. The identity of a Christian is in the Spirit. That is what a Christian is. Our bodies and our souls still do those things that under the Law would be accounted as sin. On this, we agree. The flesh is sinning, and in fact Paul states in the book of Galatians that when you attempt to be perfected through the flesh, that the only thing things that the flesh can produce are the deeds of the flesh, because the Law will prove you a sinner. It is impossible for the flesh to do otherwise. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    This is important, don't miss what I'm saying here.

    When we say that a Christian does not sin, we are speaking of someone who is a new creation, born of the Spirit. A Christian is not identified by the flesh, but alone by who they are in Christ, because we have died to that by which we were bound.

    Okay, one verse...

    "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. Therefore from now on we recognize no man according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

    I can never concede that a Christian can sin. It is impossible for him to do so. However, I know that the body is still subject to the law of sin and death. It still sins. But, that is not who I am.

    Now, as I said in my previous post...

    I realize that Paul gives us a great deal of instruction on how God wants us to behave towards one another. How we should treat others in the Body, and how to treat those outside the church. The letters of Paul are filled with such. We can "offend" others, and God does not want us to do those things. We always do those things that, under the Law, were defined as sin.
    For example, Paul says...

    "See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all men."

    "For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. Consequently, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you."

    Even though we are new creations in Christ, in the Spirit, and not in the flesh, we are told by Paul that we should not just give freedom to the flesh to do what it pleases, but to set it apart (sanctify it) unto God's purposes. This is the same thing he says when he tells us to present our bodies unto God, which is our spiritual service of worship. God does not want us to do those things that, under the Law, would be accounted as sin, and in fact are sins for those who do not know God. Paul does not say that a Christian sins, but that what we do with our bodies are sins, and God wants us to abstain from them.

    I will post this on the other thread, so that e4e, lighthouse, or anyone elses that cares to can respond.

  13. #28
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    26,925
    Thanks
    389
    Thanked 2,337 Times in 1,101 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    128 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1099925
    Quote Originally Posted by Sozo
    Question..... Is stealing a sin?
    Answer.... For someone in the flesh, and under the Law, it is.
    Question.... Can a Christian steal something? Is he physically able?
    Answer.... Yes.
    Question.... Therefore, can a Christian sin?
    Answer... No, A Christian is not in the flesh, or under the Law..
    Question... Is a Christian condemned for that?
    Answer.... No. A Christian is free from all condemnation, because they are no longer in the flesh, and no longer under the demands of the Law.
    So if a Christian cannot sin by stealing what is it that a Christian is doing when he steals? Do you have a general term for it? (besides stealing)

    Now, let me propose something, that we may be able to come to an agreement on, and which you, e4e, lighthouse, and others might be willing to accept. For the sake of space, I am not going to quote a bunch of verses. I think that they will come to mind when appropriate. If you need them, let me know, because I can back up everything I'm saying with them.

    e4e, lighthouse, and I have been rather dogmatic in our stance that a Christian is not someone who does not do wrong in the flesh, but the issue is that we are not in the flesh. The identity of a Christian is in the Spirit. That is what a Christian is. Our bodies and our souls still do those things that under the Law would be accounted as sin. On this, we agree. The flesh is sinning, and in fact Paul states in the book of Galatians that when you attempt to be perfected through the flesh, that the only thing things that the flesh can produce are the deeds of the flesh, because the Law will prove you a sinner. It is impossible for the flesh to do otherwise. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    This is important, don't miss what I'm saying here.

    When we say that a Christian does not sin, we are speaking of someone who is a new creation, born of the Spirit. A Christian is not identified by the flesh, but alone by who they are in Christ, because we have died to that by which we were bound.

    Okay, one verse...

    "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. Therefore from now on we recognize no man according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

    I can never concede that a Christian can sin. It is impossible for him to do so. However, I know that the body is still subject to the law of sin and death. It still sins. But, that is not who I am.

    Now, as I said in my previous post...



    For example, Paul says...

    "See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all men."

    "For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. Consequently, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you."

    Even though we are new creations in Christ, in the Spirit, and not in the flesh, we are told by Paul that we should not just give freedom to the flesh to do what it pleases, but to set it apart (sanctify it) unto God's purposes. This is the same thing he says when he tells us to present our bodies unto God, which is our spiritual service of worship. God does not want us to do those things that, under the Law, would be accounted as sin, and in fact are sins for those who do not know God. Paul does not say that a Christian sins, but that what we do with our bodies are sins, and God wants us to abstain from them.

    I will post this on the other thread, so that e4e, lighthouse, or anyone elses that cares to can respond.
    Well even if all this were accurate Paul still uses the word sin in relation to Christians who sin. He doesn't differentiate between the flesh part of them and the Spirit part of them. My guess is Paul doesn't differentiate because it would be unnecessarily confusing and he also knows that sin has a broader meaning that describes doing things that are wrong.

    You will never be able to overcome the direct biblical material that is in opposition to your argument.

    Ultimately Christians can sin. Thankfully that sin is covered in advance that is the power of the gospel. Paul does not differentiate between the flesh part of a person and the Spirit part of a person. Since Paul doesn't make this differentiation why should we?
    1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. 7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. 9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.

    Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil.

    Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

    1Corinthians 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.

    Titus 3:8 Reject a divisive man (in reference to a brother in Christ) after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning
    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

  14. #29
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    26,925
    Thanks
    389
    Thanked 2,337 Times in 1,101 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    128 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1099925
    The Coup de Grace


    Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin [ Sozo take note "shall we continue in sin?" the possibility is obviously there. ] that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? [ Sozo take note, we are dead to sin but we shouldn't live sinfully, that wold be a bad thing but we could if we wanted to. ] 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should [ Sozo take note "we should" ] walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. [ Sozo take note "dominion", sin doesn't have "dominion" over us any longer but Paul is clearly making the point that we still have the ability to sin. ] 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign [ Sozo take note "do not let sin reign", don't let sin "reign"! Clearly sin is presented as a possibility. ] in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. [ Sozo take note "should" clearly we are capable of sin yet freed as in immune from it's punishment. ]
    Paul couldn't be more clear and all of this literally drives the nail into the coffin of this disagreement.

    Paul summarizes the above beautifully in the following verse(s)

    Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

  15. #30
    Registered User Sozo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    2,619
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    I am still working on the other verses, but refuting your understanding of these verses in Romans were so easy, I picked them first...



    Verse 1

    “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase?”

    Paul has just spent the previous 5 chapters proving that ALL men are guilty of sin (chapter 1); That they cannot use the Law to compare themselves against one another, because the Law is what proves ALL men are guilty of sin (chapter 2); That righteousness (freedom from sin) comes by faith alone in Jesus Christ, and not be the works of the Law (chapter 3); That God chose Abraham as the father of all who believe God will give us this righteousness as a result of Christ's sacrifice for sin so that we are now justified by faith, and not by works (chapter 4); and even though all men are sinners because of the disobedience of one man (Adam), yet all men may receive life because of the obedience of only One Man (Jesus).

    Romans 5 concludes:

    "And the Law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

    Sin reigned in death, Knight. Are you still dead?

    Therefore, the obvious question in Romans 6:1


    "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase?"

    This is a rhetorical question, because Paul already knows the answer. But, it is an obvious question based on his conclusion in chapter 5. (paraphrased) "Why not keep sinning so that the grace of God (which is greater) will increase all the more?"

    Paul makes the answer abundantly clear:


    Verse 2

    "May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? "

    Paul is emphatic! We have died to sin, and therefore it is impossible to live in sin! Not some legalistic recommendation that you shouldn't be sinning, but a clear statement of the impossibility of the event.

    Paul goes on to explain why it is impossible for you to live in sin.


    Verse 3

    "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?"

    Anyone who has come to Christ by faith, has been baptized into His body, and has shared in His death (and resurrection).

    Verse 4

    "Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."

    This "newness of life" is not a changed life, but an exchanged life. We give Him our life, and He gives us His! We are a new creation. We are not under the law of sin and death, but the law of the Spirit of life in Christ.

    Verse 5

    "For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection"

    When Jesus died to sin, so did we, and the life that Jesus has is the very life of God, and so is ours!


    Verse 6

    "knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin;"

    Your "old self" is who you were in Adam, in sin, and dead (separated) from God. Jesus crucified our old self with Him, to separate us from the body of sin, so that we are no longer it's slave.

    Verse 7

    "for he who has died is freed from sin."

    Have you died with Christ? If so, then you ARE free from sin.

    “For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God” Colossians 3:3

    “It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him”
    2 Timothy 2:11


    Verses 8-9

    "Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him."

    Jesus died to sin, and those of us who died with Christ are also dead to sin; However, we have also been made alive in Him, and death is no longer master over us.

    Verses 10-11

    "For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus."

    Why must we consider this? Because we need to renew our minds with that which is true, as Paul has already proved we are indeed dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ!

    Verses 12-13

    "Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God."

    So now, because you are "free from sin", it is ludicrous for you to allow sin to reign in your body by obeying it, rather than obeying righteousness by faith in Christ. Are you going to go back and undo all that Paul just explained from chapter 1 until now, and obey the Law for righteousness and once again declare yourself a sinner, thus obeying sin? Which is it? Are you going to go back and present the members of your body to a system that proves you a sinner, or are you going to present yourself to God as what you are... an instrument of righteousness? Are you in sin or in Christ? Are you dead or alive?

    Verse 14

    "For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace"

    Sin has lost it's power in your life, not because you are obeying the Law, but because you have died to it through Christ's sacrifice, and you are now alive in the Spirit, by grace through righteousness.

    Verse 15

    “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!”

    Again, Paul asks a rhetorical question, and once again he already knows the answer...

    Verse 16

    "Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?"

    If you are going to live according to the Law, then you will be proved a sinner, and you will be a slave to sin, and the result is death. However, you can obey the gospel of faith alone in Christ, which results in righteousness, and be its slave.

    Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
    John 8:34

    Verses 17-18

    "But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

    What is the form of teaching? It is the gospel!! The gospel of Jesus Christ sets you free from sin, and makes you a slave of righteousness. You can no longer become a slave of sin, if you are in Christ Jesus.


    Verse 19

    "I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification."

    Oh how the legalists love to pervert this verse perhaps it is their weak flesh, but Paul is trying to make a point about who you are going to serve; either the Law which results in proving your sin, or righteousness through faith in Christ which results in your sanctification (being set apart from death).

    Here is where so many get confused, and why so many go astray from the truth. Presenting your members is not behavior modification through obedience to the Law, because if it is then Paul just contradicted his entire arguments from chapter 1 until now. No, Paul is showing us that we need to present our members to righteousness which comes by faith, rather than trying to gain God's favor with them through keeping the Law. "Walking in the flesh" is not "sinning", it is believing that God approves of you through the deeds of the flesh.


    Verse 20

    "For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness."

    When we were in Adam... dead, and separated from the life of God, there was never a possibility of ever doing anything right. We were free from all righteousness.

    Verse 21

    "Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death."

    All your works, deeds, etc. were pointless, and now that you are in Christ you can clearly see that your own efforts fell short of pleasing God, and it shames you to think that you could actually gain his favor through the Law. The only thing you could produce in Adam, was death.

    Verse 22

    "But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life."

    Having concluded that in you there dwells no good thing, and that apart from God's righteousness you are without hope, you have come to Christ by faith, and have been set free from sin, where there is true benefit and true life!

    Verse 23

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. "

    Which will you choose? To live under a system that can only produce death, or to accept God's free gift of life?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us