Bob asked this and I think it helps me to organize my dishevling into a bit of coherence:Originally Posted bybob b

Yes, if you understand my statements this way you are correct, and I've stated my position in an over-arching manner in unclarity. It is rather on this particular issue of omniscience and God's relativity to time, or rather better said, the philosophical metaphysical discussions that lead me to be okay with the perplexing and irrational contexts. For basic doctrines and truths I am quite confident in logic for it is from Christ. It is only when discussing with man, truths that are cloudy that I would question my logic or the logic of another and see room for error.

I would liken this to higher math (one area of applied logic). The higher we get in math, the more room for error. Basic math? No question, easy. Imperative truth. Algebra: More difficult but still based on solid truth, but more of the heretics (D and F students) start getting answers wrong. Calculus: Severe drop-out, but clearly we can still discern truth. Once we get to "mathematical analysis and functional analysis" and traverse into string theory it gets complicated. It isn't that truth is not there, but that logic starts having a hard time grasping it and you start getting credit for partial answers so you don't flunk out. We don't even listen to the ones who flunked out of 'basic' math and 'algebra' about higher math because if they couldn't understand basic math there is no way they can comment on Geometry and Calculus, and they think theorems and postulates aren't even mathematical terms. In theology these are the heretics and false teachers.

Back to a glass darkly: I have no problem with 'simple, basic, or other solid' doctrines of faith and logical belief held therein. We are totally on the same page and I don't question my logic whatsoever. No question: If you try to prove to any of us that Salvation can be found anywhere but in Christ we are going to have a serious logic problem dicussion with that heretic (2+2=10). If you say that the trinity is a false doctrine we are all going to have to give a logical dismiss and see it as their problem, not ours (a+5=10; a=4). Once we say however that God exists outside of time or does not exist outside of time we are becoming more speculative and frankly, I've memorized a theorem and would have to go back quite a ways to see why my theorem would be wrong. Some of my theorems are wrong, but not on the 'basic math/algebraic" level. I also hold that most of my theorems are correct logically so I would say that I am not altogether illogical. The only thing I am trying to say is that the higher we go in extrapolations from scripture (it is illogical for God to be outside of time), the less likely I will be able to logically aquiesce (and I would rather say that I am illogical than say you are 'stupid' at that point. 1) because I have a very high view of other believers in Christ whether they agree with me or not. We agree on the 'basic math and algebra' (basic doctrine) implicitly 2) because three fingers always point back which allows me to have an honest pause over how logical I am on the 'higher math/logic' of it 3) because I want to prepare myself for what Christ is preparing for a logic lesson. If I don't concede that my logic has an ability to be faulty I'll just argue. I think this is actually anti-intellectual, anti-logical, and not very gracious to boot. In order to appreciate higher math, you have to be able to see your mistakes and admit them or you learn nothing, albeit, once you get to higher math those mistakes should be far and few between.

If God is constrained to our time, I do not see the truth of it. My logical structure is built upon theorems and postulates that I've used to solve other troubling logical problems over years and they work very well. I would necessarily have to become very illogical to reshuffle and analyze those postulates and theorems (at least through a shuffling process restructuring process).

Here at last is the position: I see a proposition that is not as clear or as truthful as you are proposing (for me). I've read over the posts here and other places to get clarity on this subject and what I am finding is that it is by no means clear and it is by no means agreed upon. It would be very easy to simply walk away and say "My views work very well for me, since there is much debate over this I'm not going to worry about it. I'm just going to keep what works for me here and believe they are wrong."

My only problem is that I love God's people. If they do not agree with me and I believe we have the same faith, I want to know "why?" I want to see their side to at least appreciate it. There are plenty of denominations and we all disagree on the "higher math." Or as you put it "The Deeper Truths" for lack of a better word. My stance is simply to say "I might not understand your view here at all. It may be illogical or I may be illogical on this perspective but I'd like for us to become as logical together as we can."