What is the Gospel?

D

Danoh

New member
Sonnet said:
I haven't said so.
The snakes were sent, it seems, as a punishment for their complaints.
Since Jesus's analogy is not focused on this part of the story then I assumed I need not either.



If you are going go down this path, why stop there? Why not speculate also about what the snakes represent, the relevance of Moses raising the serpent and that the story was set in the wilderness?

Jesus restricts His analogy to nothing but dying Israelites who need a cure.



Because Jesus was not saying they were not sick in terms of their state of sin.
I see no relevance of Mat. 9 to the analogy.



Moses status is excluded from the analogy so why speculate? Jesus limits the scope Himself:

Source
1. Bitten Israelites about to die
2. Bronze serpent raised on a pole
3. Israelites looking at the serpent and living

Target
1. Sinful humanity heading for eternal hell
2. Jesus crucified
3. People believing Jesus for eternal life
Click to expand...

Well, other than that other obvious, I would agree with that breakdown there.

This obvious - "at that time" Eph. 2...

Target
1. Sinful ISRAEL heading for eternal hell
2. Jesus crucified
3. ISRAEL believing Jesus for eternal life

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And...

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Verse 13 referring to things after this was pronounced...

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Not that that now excluded Israelites - from this even now GENTILE salvation...

Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The meaning of verse 32 there?

This here...

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5; 5:7,8.
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

New member
Danoh said:
Well, other than that other obvious, I would agree with that breakdown there.

This obvious - "at that time" Eph. 2...

Target
1. Sinful ISRAEL heading for eternal hell
2. Jesus crucified
3. ISRAEL believing Jesus for eternal life

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And...

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Verse 13 referring to things after this was pronounced...

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Not that that now excluded Israelites - from this even now GENTILE salvation...

Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The meaning of verse 32 there?

This here...

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5; 5:7,8.
Click to expand...

I have often wondered about the exact meaning of those scriptures.

It's not as if Paul (or Jesus) ever considered the Gentiles beyond salvation is it? That such exclusion would have been the case but for the 'fall' of Israel thus enabling the 'baton' to be passed to the Gentiles for a time?

What do you think?
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Sonnet said:
It's not as if Paul (or Jesus) ever considered the Gentiles beyond salvation is it? That such exclusion would have been the case but for the 'fall' of Israel thus enabling the 'baton' to be passed to the Gentiles for a time?
Click to expand...

According to prophecy the Gentiles will be saved through the agency of Israel:

"Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee" (Isa.55:3,5).​

"For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed" (Isa.61:8-9).​

That would have happened in the past if Israel would not have remained in unbelief concerning the Lord Jesus but it will happen in the future.
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

New member
Jerry Shugart said:
According to prophecy the Gentiles will be saved through the agency of Israel:

"Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee" (Isa.55:3,5).​

"For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed" (Isa.61:8-9).​

That would have happened in the past if Israel would not have remained in unbelief concerning the Lord Jesus but it will happen in the future.
Click to expand...

Thanks.
I'm struggling to understand who is thee and who is thou.
 
D

Danoh

New member
Sonnet said:
I have often wondered about the exact meaning of those scriptures.

It's not as if Paul (or Jesus) ever considered the Gentiles beyond salvation is it? That such exclusion would have been the case but for the 'fall' of Israel thus enabling the 'baton' to be passed to the Gentiles for a time?

What do you think?
Click to expand...

When further studied in depth, the sense of all that and what or is all based on, is that of a redeemed Israel as an agency over the Nations of the Earth one day, and how that God had also planned to temporarily interrupt that, towards first reconciling back unto Himself and replacing with a New Creature: The Body of Christ; those fallen Heavenly places also mentioned in Scripture.

No sense in reconciling the Earth first, if those fallen Heavenly places from within which the prince of the power of the air and his dark princes have not been put down and their positions of dominion and authority over the Heavens are replaced with a new cabinet, so to speak.

Romans 8; 1 Cor. 6 & 15; Ephesians 1 & 2 & 6; and so on.
 
Nihilo

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
Danoh said:
When further studied in depth, the sense of all that and what or is all based on, is that of a redeemed Israel as an agency over the Nations of the Earth one day, and how that God had also planned to temporarily interrupt that, towards first reconciling back unto Himself and replacing with a New Creature: The Body of Christ; those fallen Heavenly places also mentioned in Scripture.....
Click to expand...
That's not the Catholic position, which is that the Church is not a temporary interruption, but was the point all along. Israel was the people of God (a number of times, Israel was called a Church in the Greek Old Testament scriptures, which were removed from the originally codified and canonized Christian Bible, that consists of 73 books, not just 66, during the Reformation), and now the Church is the people of God.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Sonnet said:
Thanks.
I'm struggling to understand who is thee and who is thou.
Click to expand...

It is Israel which those verses are making reference. Perhaps the following passage will clear up any confusion which you might have about this subject:

"And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:13,23).
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

New member
Danoh said:
When further studied in depth, the sense of all that and what or is all based on, is that of a redeemed Israel as an agency over the Nations of the Earth one day, and how that God had also planned to temporarily interrupt that, towards first reconciling back unto Himself and replacing with a New Creature: The Body of Christ; those fallen Heavenly places also mentioned in Scripture.

No sense in reconciling the Earth first, if those fallen Heavenly places from within which the prince of the power of the air and his dark princes have not been put down and their positions of dominion and authority over the Heavens are replaced with a new cabinet, so to speak.

Romans 8; 1 Cor. 6 & 15; Ephesians 1 & 2 & 6; and so on.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but I am completely lost as to your meaning.
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

New member
Jerry Shugart said:
It is Israel which those verses are making reference. Perhaps the following passage will clear up any confusion which you might have about this subject:

"And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:13,23).
Click to expand...

"Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee" (Isa.55:3,5).

You actually quote just verse 5 which in NIV is rendered:

Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations you do not know will come running to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor.”

Israel will summon or call nations who will come running?

"For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed" (Isa.61:8-9).

Jerry - I am trying to see how such scriptures warrant your:

"According to prophecy the Gentiles will be saved through the agency of Israel"
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

New member
Derf said:
Why do you think He does?

Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app
Click to expand...

I can't see any scriptural reason that says the HS would not do so...except, perhaps, Romans 10:14c

"And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?"

This might be more of a way of emphasising that Christians should go and preach rather than a denial of any alternative.
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

New member
Jerry Shugart said:
According to prophecy the Gentiles will be saved through the agency of Israel:

"Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee" (Isa.55:3,5).​

"For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed" (Isa.61:8-9).​

That would have happened in the past if Israel would not have remained in unbelief concerning the Lord Jesus but it will happen in the future.
Click to expand...

Romans 10:19-20
Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, “I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.” And Isaiah boldly says,“I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”
 
patrick jane

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Sonnet said:
As in without a mediator? Just the HS directly to the person.

Yes, I am being pedantic...apologies.
Click to expand...
Romans 8:26-27 KJV - 26 [FONT=&quot]Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.


1 Timothy 2:5 KJV - [FONT=&quot]For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,[/FONT][/FONT]
 
D

Danoh

New member
Sonnet said:
Sorry, but I am completely lost as to your meaning.
Click to expand...

TWO-Fold Purpose of God: Prophecy and Mystery.

Prophecy, or that which was Prophesied by the Law and the Prophets since the world began, concerning a redeemed Israel, as His kingdom of Priests and an holy Nation over the Nations of the Earth one day.

Temporarily placed on hold by God, as planned by Him.

Ripped off at some point afterwards, by the RCC.

Mystery, or that which was kept since the world began, until Paul, and concerns a New Creature: the Body of Christ, over the Heavenly host one day.

Still ongoing until the fullness of this Gentile salvation be come in.

Distorted out of proportion by Reformed Theology.

Said distortion really went into full swing near the end of the 1st Century and into the 2nd and 3rd (so called "church fathers) and so on.

Rom. 14:5; 5:7,8.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top