User Tag List

Page 1 of 44 123411 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 648

Thread: Summit Clock Experiment 2.0: Time is Absolute

  1. #1
    Gold level Subscriber Bob Enyart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Rocky Mountains
    Posts
    1,103
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 18 Times in 16 Posts

    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    65756

    Summit Clock Experiment 2.0: Time is Absolute

    Rather than leave this sitting on my hard drive, I thought I'd post this updated version on TOL in case anyone wants another shot at it. -Bob Enyart


    A Layman Questions Gravitational Time Dilation

    * Einstein’s theory of General Relativity indicates that gravity influences time, in that time flows relatively more slowly in a stronger gravitational field as compared to time in a weaker field.

    * Actual experiments and observations provide evidence for GR time dilation. For example, clocks at different Earth altitudes run at different rates, thus the mile high atomic clock in Colorado runs a few ticks faster per year than the one close to sea level in Greenwich, England.

    * Most physicists and cosmologists accept GR time dilation, and thus, that time is relative to a particular frame of reference.

    And in that context, when Googling “Gravitational Time Dilation” I get: Google 7 from AbsoluteAstronomy.com: “Gravitational time dilation is the slowing down of the passage of time anywhere in the gravitational field.” Google 11: “The short and sloppy versions say: "… ‘Time runs slower as you descend into the potential well of a uniform pseudo-force field.’” From Google 9: “The idea of relativity is to throw out the concept of us traveling through time inescapably, and accept time as just another dimension.”

    Consider this exaggerated scenario to illustrate my opposition to time dilation, and then I’ll suggest a practical experiment that could test my conclusion.

    Two atomic clocks have been running on Earth for billions of years, one at the base of Cheyenne Mountain, and the other at the summit, sitting inside of a well-maintained Chinook cargo helicopter. The clock on the peak has been running faster by a few nanoseconds per year, but over the eons, it has advanced to twenty-four hours ahead of the clock far below, and it’s readout, in year, month, day, hour, minute, second, and nanosecond, is just now turning over to indicate exactly twenty-four hours ahead of the other clock, on a Friday at exactly high noon. This illustrates Einstein’s prediction that time would run relatively slower at a stronger gravitational field, as exists at the bottom of the mountain (we can ignore gravitational anomalies in mountains). Thus, the clock at the mountaintop is now one-day ahead of the clock below. The clocks were installed to sit in virtual perfect longitudinal alignment (at 104-50-01.9000W), so that as the earth orbits the Sun, both clocks cross an imaginary vector from the Sun in unison. The operator of the clock below, who was hired because of his PhD in physics, has just begun reading today’s newspaper. The operator can read today’s paper, because they both exist at the same time. He is alive, and wanting and able to read, and today’s paper has been printed, and just delivered to his facility, and since they are both there, the operator and the paper, at the same time, he can read that paper. However, if he wanted to read tomorrow’s paper, he could not do it immediately, because tomorrow’s paper is twenty-four hours behind him in time. (Behind him is the correct direction. He is ahead of tomorrow paper. Like a NASCAR driver who finishes 24 seconds before another, our operator is here now, a full 24 hours before tomorrow’s paper hits the newsstands. Remember after all, the river of time flows backward, not forward -- from the future through the present into the past. Imagine something floating in that current, like next Christmas, which is in the future, drifting toward the present, but eventually will be remembered only in fading prints in family photo albums. But I digress…) Assuming that the newspaper’s production schedule remains constant with past performance, the operator will have to wait for twenty-four hours to pass before he can actually come into contact with tomorrow’s paper, or for that matter, with anything that is twenty-four hours into the future. Now, back to the clock on the peak. The operator has kept an eye on that clock from it’s installation until today (he’s now near retirement age), and with a telescope, he’s been able to watch the nanoseconds ticking more quickly than those of his clock. (Of course he realizes that with the limitation of the speed of light, he’s seeing the Summit hands move picoseconds after they actually do, and that does not confuse his understanding.) Being an educated man, he believes that time has been flowing faster for the clock above, and that is why the Summit Clock is twenty-four hours ahead of him and his clock.

    Now, it seems to me that the operator is confused, and that physicists must actually be referring to some other effect when they say or imply that gravity actually affects time as compared to other frames of reference. The seventh site found by a web search on the topic, (Google 7), states: “Gravitational time dilation is the slowing down of the passage of time.” Seemingly implying that time flows at different rates for the two clocks. If that were literally true, then it seems the two clocks would exist in two different time frames, now separated by twenty-four hours, and the operator at the base shouldn’t even be able to see the clock at the summit, since it is 24 hours ahead of him in time. After all (Feynman and QED notwithstanding), this guy just can’t see that far into the future.

    Now THE PLOT thickens! The helicopter (which has been maintained all these years at great taxpayer expense) suddenly transported the Summit Clock to the Base Clock, and the two clocks were set next to each other so that they actually touched! And the contact between the two clocks happened exactly ten minutes after noon on Friday according to the Summit Clock (rounding to the nearest whole second).

    So, here is my question. What time would the Base Clock show at the moment that they made contact?

    Calvinists, most physicists and evolutionary cosmologists would all answer that at the moment of contact, the Base Clock would read Thursday at 12:10 p.m. Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day. And for what I know of Relativity (not much) they all happen to be correct! Consider how this thought experiment refutes time dilation. Whenever physicists claim that GR proves that gravitational gradients affect time, they are wrong. They don’t. Gravity does not affect time: it affects clocks. And that is not the same thing. If gravity affects only clocks, and not actual time, then like tomorrow’s paper, the Summit Clock would not be one day into the actual future, as compared to the Base Clock; and if it were quickly transported down the mountain (where it would begin ticking off time at the same rate as the other clock), then the Summit Clock would continue to give readouts offset exactly twenty-four hours ahead of the Base Clock. (The brief trip down the mountain had a relatively negligible impact on its timekeeping.) However, if different gravitational gradients truly affected time, and the Summit Clock were truly one day ahead in time of the other, then the helicopter should not be able to bring them into contact after a mere ten minute trip! The duration of the flight was measured at 10 minutes by both clocks within less than a billionth of a second. (Having worked at McDonnell Douglas on the AH-64 Apache attack helicopter, I know a bit of about these machines, enough to state authoritatively that helicopters are not time machines.) If the Summit Clock truly experienced time faster than the Base Clock, then once the helicopter brought the clock to the base of the mountain, at that point, then another twenty-four hours would have to pass by before the operator at the base could even see the Summit Clock sitting there (after returning from lunch, behold, the clock cometh!). So the operator would have waited until Friday, at ten minutes after noon, before he could see the clock suddenly appear on the ground next to his Base Clock. But, that is not what would happen, is it? What actually would have happened is, having packed a sack lunch that day, he saw the clock at the same moment that it was being delivered. The Summit Clock and the Base Clock had been ticking at different rates for billions of years. Yet both had traveled around the Sun the exact same number of times. Both clocks saw the exact same number of sunrises and sunsets! However the Summit Clock’s readout suggested that it had seen one additional sunrise and sunset than had the Base Clock, which of course it had not. The Summit Clock and the Base Clock both revolve around the earth’s axis in the same solar day at the exact same longitude, so to interpret their readouts as measuring different length days is to be confused. Genesis says that God gave us the Sun (and other astronomic bodies) for “seasons, and for days and years.” It turns out that God gave mankind great timekeepers (and less misleading ones than our atomic clocks as interpreted by theorists)! The movements within our solar system give us a more correct understanding of the absolute nature of time than do the ticks of atomic clocks. So, whatever cosmologists are actually trying to say when they speak of time dilation, here is the truth. Gravity does not affect time. Gravity affects clocks.

    In this scenario, as with the real world atomic clocks in Greenwich and Boulder (one across the Atlantic, and the other a few miles up Highway 93 from Denver Bible Church and our KGOV.com studio), both clocks exist in the exact same ultimate time reference, and always will, as long as they both shall tick. The false theory of epicycles did a better job of predicting the positions of the planets in the sky as compared to early Copernican calculations, yet epicycles were incorrect. Relativity’s time dilation does a great job of predicting the read out of an atomic clock at various altitudes and accelerations (experimentally, what, to within less than 1% of theoretical performance?) But that does not prove that time is relative. Rather, it proves that gravity affects clocks. Imagine if ancient Eskimos used a seal bladder to keep time, filling it up with water, and counting sixty drips for each minute. (Why sixty? Well, since the earth originally orbited the Sun in exactly 360 days, the ancients divided circles into 360 degrees, and a hexagonal system of time developed, with the day and night divided anciently into 12 hour segments, and measurements of time divided into convenient hexagonal units.) Anyway, occasionally a drunkard would wander by and squeeze the bladder, bringing a native physicist to suggest his theory of alcoholic time dilation! So, both the Eskimo clock and the atomic clock prove the same thing. When exposed to different gravitational gradients (and drunken tantrums), it is the various measuring instruments of time, like atomic clocks, seal bladders, GPS satellites, metabolism, etc., that are affected. A simple experiment is worth a thousand theories, albeit like Schrodinger's Cat, this one is a thought experiment. The Summit Clock and the Base Clock both go around the world in the same day with the exact same duration, so they cannot disagree on the length of a day or of an eon. If this Summit Clock experiment is valid, then we find out that the amateurs are wrong, and also, that the amateurs include a lot of professionals. And Calvinists too. For my interest in all this is theological. Biblically, I have been convinced that time is an eternal attribute of reality, and thus, of God’s existence, seen most easily in that He is relational. And many Calvinists and others teach that God is outside of time existing in an eternal now, and that He created time. So Calvinists commonly quote popular understandings of General Relativity’s time dilation as evidence for their claim that time is not absolute, and thus, God can exist outside of time. So, I have a vested interested in refuting that. Thus I argue that when folks say that time speeds up or slows down in different frames of reference, what they really mean is that stuff affects clocks.

    My theological bias does not change the fact the Earth does not orbit the Sun at two different rates simultaneously. In this clock scenario, at exactly high noon on the Friday in question, the two clocks crossed an imaginary vector from the sun in exact unison, as they’ve done every day of the experiment, so they cannot show an actual difference between them in the duration of a day, since they themselves exactly mark the rotation and orbit of the earth, marking the passage of each day. They have been simultaneously crossing such vectors that mark out a single day, and they’ve simultaneously crosses such vectors seven times marking a week, and 365 times (or so) marking a year, and so on, marking out the centuries, millennia, and eons, in exact synchronicity, such that these clocks physically demonstrate zero difference in the length of a day or an eon for the two clocks. Thus, because adding zero plus zero billions of times will never accumulate to a 24-hour difference in time, the variant readouts of the clocks is only superficial, and does not indicate that time ran faster or slower in a different frame of reference, but rather, that gravity affects clocks.

    And here is my suggested experiment: let’s hike to the top of 14,110-foot Pike’s Peak and enter the snack bar at the summit, grab the old round wall clock, the one that’s been up there so long that when removed it will leave a clean white circle on the wall. And then we’ll ride the train down to the base of the mountain in Manitou Springs, and rush the old ticking clock a few miles to the Clock Tower at the University of Colorado in Colorado Springs. And when we get there, we will touch the two together, and see if the space-time continuum ruptures, or anything like that.

    -Pastor Bob Enyart.com
    DenverBibleChurch.com & KGOV.com
    Last edited by Bob Enyart; December 11th, 2011 at 07:21 AM. Reason: added to title: Time is Absolute
    The Bob Enyart Live talk show airs at KGOV.com weekdays at 5 pm E.T. Also, same time, same station, check out Theology Thursday (.com) and on Fridays, Real Science Radio (.com) a.k.a. rsr.org. All shows are available 24/7 and you can call us at at 1-800-8Enyart.

  2. #2
    Journeyman Aethril's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    74
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    129

    My Favorite:

    "Gravity does not affect time: it affects clocks."

    Great point.

  3. #3
    Over 750 post club
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Posts
    960
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    156
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Enyart
    Whenever physicists claim that GR proves that gravitational gradients affect time, they are wrong. They don’t. Gravity does not affect time: it affects clocks. And that is not the same thing. If gravity affects only clocks, and not actual time, then like tomorrow’s paper, the Summit Clock would not be one day into the actual future, as compared to the Base Clock; and if it were quickly transported down the mountain (where it would begin ticking off time at the same rate as the other clock), then the Summit Clock would continue to give readouts offset exactly twenty-four hours ahead of the Base Clock. (The brief trip down the mountain had a relatively negligible impact on its timekeeping.) However, if different gravitational gradients truly affected time, and the Summit Clock were truly one day ahead in time of the other, then the helicopter should not be able to bring them into contact after a mere ten minute trip!
    The only way you can arrive at the conclusion that one clock should be 24 hours into the future is if you assume that time is static for all observers -- i.e. one 24 hour period for the observer at the peak is exactly another 24 hour period for the other observer at the base. Stated another way, you are exchanging their hours 1 for 1, i.e. a 24 hour period for the peak observer is 24 hours for the summit observer. Following this line of thought, one could rationally conclude that the peak observer should be 24 hours in time ahead of the base observer. And you did just that. But this is a fatal misunderstanding of what relativity teaches, and so naturally you arrive at the wrong conclusion.

    Relative time means that in the same number of sunrises and sunsets, each observer actually experiences a different interval of time as measured by whatever clock you chose (dripping water, heart rate, atomic clocks, mechanical clocks, etc.) You seem to be confused on this point -- it doesn't matter whether its an atomic clock or not. It can be any process which changes as a function of time (that includes your existence and all of the interactions with the environment you have). What relativity means is that the length of the day (i.e. sunrise to sunrise) is actually slightly different for each observer.

    Yet both had traveled around the Sun the exact same number of times. Both clocks saw the exact same number of sunrises and sunsets! However the Summit Clock’s readout suggested that it had seen one additional sunrise and sunset than had the Base Clock, which of course it had not.
    Again, the summit clock's readout would suggest that there was an additional sunrise if and only if you assume the summit clock experiences the sun rise at the same precise interval the base clock does: once every 24 hours. Relativity makes no such assertion. In fact, it says quite the opposite: each observer will experience a different amount of time between each sunrise. So when calculating out how many sunrises should have been seen by a Summit Clock, simply take the time between sunrises and divide it by the time experienced by the observer. When this calculation is done, both observers will agree on the exact number of sunrises regardless of the time they experienced. What they won't agree on is how much time elapsed between each sunrise and how much total time was experienced. This is what it means to say that time is relative.
    Last edited by Johnny; December 29th, 2006 at 11:34 PM.
    “There's nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view that I hold dear.” - Daniel Dennett

  4. #4
    Over 2000 post club One Eyed Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    2,093
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    192
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny
    The only way you can arrive at the conclusion that one clock should be 24 hours into the future is if you assume that time is static for all observers -- i.e. one 24 hour period for the observer at the peak is exactly another 24 hour period for the other observer at the base. Stated another way, you are exchanging their hours 1 for 1, i.e. a 24 hour period for the peak observer is 24 hours for the summit observer. Following this line of thought, one could rationally conclude that the peak observer should be 24 hours in time ahead of the base observer. And you did just that. But this is a fatal misunderstanding of what relativity teaches, and so naturally you arrive at the wrong conclusion.

    Relative time means that in the same number of sunrises and sunsets, each observer actually experiences a different interval of time as measured by whatever clock you chose (dripping water, heart rate, atomic clocks, mechanical clocks, etc.) You seem to be confused on this point -- it doesn't matter whether its an atomic clock or not. It can be any process which changes as a function of time (that includes your existence and all of the interactions with the environment you have). What relativity means is that the length of the day (i.e. sunrise to sunrise) is actually slightly different for each observer.
    I hate to say it, but I have to agree with Johnny on this one. An atomic clock is more like a stopwatch than a wristwatch.

    Again, the summit clock's readout would suggest that there was an additional sunrise if and only if you assume the summit clock experiences the sun rise at the same precise interval the base clock does: once every 24 hours. Relativity makes no such assertion. In fact, it says quite the opposite: each observer will experience a different amount of time between each sunrise. So when calculating out how many sunrises should have been seen by a Summit Clock, simply take the time between sunrises and divide it by the time experienced by the observer. When this calculation is done, both observers will agree on the exact number of sunrises regardless of the time they experienced. What they won't agree on is how much time elapsed between each sunrise and how much total time was experienced. This is what it means to say that time is relative.
    That's my understanding of it.

  5. #5
    Veteran Redfin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    310
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    163
    I'm looking forward to BE's response.
    "The truly wise talk little about religion, and are not given to taking sides on doctrinal issues...
    They have no time, they say, for that kind of thing.
    They have enough to do in trying to faithfully practice what is beyond dispute."

    -- George MacDonald

  6. #6
    Over 750 post club
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Posts
    960
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    156
    I think this is also important to discuss,

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Enyart
    When exposed to different gravitational gradients (and drunken tantrums), it is the various measuring instruments of time, like atomic clocks, seal bladders, GPS satellites, metabolism, etc., that are affected.
    This is more of a philosophical issue but I think it is paramount to the issue at hand and really needs to be discussed. What does it mean to say that clocks and things that measure intervals are effected but the interval itself is not effected? It is just as valid to say that the interval itself has changed as it is to say that all our measurements of any given interval have changed. Indeed both statements are functionally equivalent -- in either case any given interval experienced has changed. This is not a "broken clock" issue, it's far far deeper than that. Every periodic event can be used as a clock -- be it our respirations, our heart rate, how long it takes me to tie my shoe (assuming I do it exactly the same each time I do it), how many words per minute I read, how many times a minute I blink, etc. etc. If all of these things change as a result of relativity, what does it mean to say that time hasn't changed, only the things that measure it? It is meaningless.
    \
    “There's nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view that I hold dear.” - Daniel Dennett

  7. #7
    Over 4000 post club fool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    4,532
    Thanks
    108
    Thanked 399 Times in 261 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    153389
    I just realized this thread has nothing to do with time.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Enyart
    [For my interest in all this is theological. Biblically, I have been convinced that time is an eternal attribute of reality, and thus, of God’s existence, seen most easily in that He is relational. And many Calvinists and others teach that God is outside of time existing in an eternal now, and that He created time. So Calvinists commonly quote popular understandings of General Relativity’s time dilation as evidence for their claim that time is not absolute, and thus, God can exist outside of time. So, I have a vested interested in refuting that. Thus I argue that when folks say that time speeds up or slows down in different frames of reference, what they really mean is that stuff affects clocks.[/color][/size][/font]
    Everyman is a voice in the dark.
    I II III IV

  8. #8
    Rookie Supremum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    27
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    127
    All physical objects are in some way clocks. And the rate at which they interact with each other slows from the point of view of an outside observer is inversely proportional to their velocity with respect to that observer. Removing measureing devices from the phenomena they measure cuts right at the heart of empiricism itself.
    "People ask me if I've ever been called a Nazi. I answer that no one has ever had dreams of being tied down and sexually ravished by someone dressed as a liberal." - P.J. O'Rourke

  9. #9
    Over 2000 post club One Eyed Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    2,093
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    192
    Quote Originally Posted by Supremum
    All physical objects are in some way clocks. And the rate at which they interact with each other slows from the point of view of an outside observer is inversely proportional to their velocity with respect to that observer.
    That's special relativity. We're talking mostly about general relativity, which has to do with gravity rather than velocity.

  10. #10
    Science Lover
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    South Bend, IN
    Posts
    1,968
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1455
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny
    I think this is also important to discuss,

    This is more of a philosophical issue but I think it is paramount to the issue at hand and really needs to be discussed. What does it mean to say that clocks and things that measure intervals are effected but the interval itself is not effected? It is just as valid to say that the interval itself has changed as it is to say that all our measurements of any given interval have changed. Indeed both statements are functionally equivalent -- in either case any given interval experienced has changed. This is not a "broken clock" issue, it's far far deeper than that. Every periodic event can be used as a clock -- be it our respirations, our heart rate, how long it takes me to tie my shoe (assuming I do it exactly the same each time I do it), how many words per minute I read, how many times a minute I blink, etc. etc. If all of these things change as a result of relativity, what does it mean to say that time hasn't changed, only the things that measure it? It is meaningless.
    \
    God said that he gave us the stars, planets etc. for the measurement of time.

    Are these methods better than ours?
    Random changes are destructive to any carefully crafted piece of work, such as a computer program, a novel or the genome of a lifeform.
    Matt 23:24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

  11. #11
    Over 500 post club aharvey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    689
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    166
    Quote Originally Posted by bob b
    God said that he gave us the stars, planets etc. for the measurement of time.

    Are these methods better than ours?
    I'm curious how you would answer your own question, bob, in conjunction with the following question. Do you use the stars and planets etc., or watches and clocks etc.?

  12. #12
    Science Lover
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    South Bend, IN
    Posts
    1,968
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1455
    Quote Originally Posted by aharvey
    I'm curious how you would answer your own question, bob, in conjunction with the following question. Do you use the stars and planets etc., or watches and clocks etc.?
    I use different methods depending on the purpose, e.g. my sun dial is too heavy to carry around.
    Random changes are destructive to any carefully crafted piece of work, such as a computer program, a novel or the genome of a lifeform.
    Matt 23:24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

  13. #13
    Over 500 post club sentientsynth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Where the soil is black and red
    Posts
    534
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    152
    Quote Originally Posted by johnny
    Relativity makes no such assertion. In fact, it says quite the opposite: each observer will experience a different amount of time between each sunrise.
    I think that pretty much sums it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enyart
    For my interest in all this is theological. Biblically, I have been convinced that time is an eternal attribute of reality, and thus, of God’s existence, seen most easily in that He is relational.
    Non sequitur

    Quote Originally Posted by Enyart
    And many Calvinists and others teach that God is outside of time existing in an eternal now, and that He created time. So Calvinists commonly quote popular understandings of General Relativity’s time dilation as evidence for their claim that time is not absolute, and thus, God can exist outside of time. So, I have a vested interested in refuting that. ...
    This is true. You do have a vested interest. But ... you're still wrong on both accounts.

  14. #14
    Over 500 post club aharvey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    689
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    166
    Quote Originally Posted by bob b
    I use different methods depending on the purpose, e.g. my sun dial is too heavy to carry around.
    Oops, you only answered half of my query (and flippantly at that); imagine! The other part was to answer your own question:

    "God said that he gave us the stars, planets etc. for the measurement of time.

    Are these methods better than ours?"

    Or are you acknowledging the pointlessness of your own question?

  15. #15
    Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Taipei, Taiwan
    Posts
    14,903
    Thanks
    95
    Thanked 6,813 Times in 5,512 Posts

    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147783
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny
    I think this is also important to discuss, This is more of a philosophical issue but I think it is paramount to the issue at hand and really needs to be discussed. What does it mean to say that clocks and things that measure intervals are effected but the interval itself is not effected? It is just as valid to say that the interval itself has changed as it is to say that all our measurements of any given interval have changed. Indeed both statements are functionally equivalent -- in either case any given interval experienced has changed. This is not a "broken clock" issue, it's far far deeper than that. Every periodic event can be used as a clock -- be it our respirations, our heart rate, how long it takes me to tie my shoe (assuming I do it exactly the same each time I do it), how many words per minute I read, how many times a minute I blink, etc. etc. If all of these things change as a result of relativity, what does it mean to say that time hasn't changed, only the things that measure it? It is meaningless.
    I disagree. If, as Johnny says:
    • every periodic event can be used as a clock, and
    • (from his first post) "Relative time means that in the same number of sunrises and sunsets, each observer actually experiences a different interval of time as measured by whatever clock you chose",

    then we should be able to prove relativity not through the use of more accurate clocks, but by the use of different methods of timekeeping. Thus we should see human hearts beating faster in higher gravity, at a rate clearly predicted by general relativity. We should see hair growing at different rates under different gravitational situations. All these means of measuring time should be influenced by general relativity.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.


Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us