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Thread: BRXII Battle talk

  1. #46
    Journeyman WandererInFog's Avatar
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    Well, those were both an interesting read.

    I think it becomes clear pretty quickly that logos_x has spent a great deal more time debating this issue and in many instances the arguments he presents do a good job of anticipating Kevin's argument's and questions. However, his actual lines of reasoning are of variable strength. For example, Establishing historical merit for the orthodoxy of Universalism is good, but then turning around and attempting to reject the doctrine of ECT on the basis that it offended some people who became atheists is a lot weaker. And in cases of many of the specific people he quotes trying to tie their atheism specifically to the doctrine of ECT seems at best of oversimplication if not an outright misrepresentation of their reasons for rejecting Christianity.

    The biggest problem though that I had with logos_x post was the use of some extremely loaded questions, not quite "Are you still beating your wife?" level loaded, but fairly bad all the same. Some examples:

    "Why do you believe that God could not create things in such a way that eternal torment would not be the outcome for the vast majority of the human race?" - Belief in ECT does not immediately carry with it the assumption that in particular percentage of the human race is saved or damned. One could easily believe in ECT while holding that the majority or even the vast majority of humanity will ultimately be saved. You can even find examples of strident Calvinist (ie Warfield) who held that the elect comprised the vast majority of humanity.

    "Do you honestly think that an unending punishment that does not allow change is just?" - By throwing in that little adverb "honestly", this question implies that someone saying they think unending is just must on some level be being dishonest.

    "What do you think Christ will do with that power, what God intends, or continue what Satan started?" - This one implies again that it's already been conceded that ECT is against God's wishes, which obviously at this point in the debate hasn't been established.

    In terms of Kevin's first post, the content is a bit more succinct. He lays out the major passages seen as demonstrating ECT, and asks as for logos_x's interpretations of them. Many of these have been anticipated in logos_x initial post, but laying them out in that fashion should give both sides the opportunity to lay out their respective cases in an unambiguous fashion.

    I would note though, despite the fact I just spent a lot more time criticizing logos_x's opening that's because there was just a lot more content there to sift through. I would have to say that he in essence "won" this first round, as he did a good job of presenting his case, and did so in way that anticipated many of the argument's of the other side.
    "When the lights go out all over the world, when history seems headed only into a dead end and total disaster, God brings forth light. He changes the direction of history and regenerates men and redirects events and institutions to fulfill His purposes."

  2. #47
    Over 1000 post club logos_x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Tom
    Didn't say the soul couldn't be killed I said it lives on after the body dies! Thus your idea that God needs to suddenly give you life again just to torment you for eternity is false..
    Well, you misunderstand my argument.

    I don't believe He does raise the dead just to torment people.

    Have a wonderful day!

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Tom
    If I go out and walk down the street in my town with a sign that says

    REPENT
    OR GO
    TO
    HELL



    I can predict that in 5 min I will have 3 people stop and tell me I am a nut. Do I need to have absolute foreknowledge to do this? No I don't..

    Did Jesus need absolute foreknowledge to know that Peter would be thinking of his own life and be afraid for it and not want to get the punishment that he sees Jesus getting from the crowd. NO he didn't he knew that Peters faith was not that strong yet but it became stronger once he saw the risen savior..

    It isn't that difficult..

    My final words on this... I want to respect Knight's request...

    Christ told Peter EXACTLY how and when Peter was going to deny Him... He was precise in His prediction... Sounds like absolute foreknowledge to me...

  4. #49
    Journeyman Kimberlyann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Tom
    Yes they will die physically! and spiritually their relationship with God will be destroyed.

    It is in Jesus that we find eternal life with God not eternal life itself since as PK showed Jesus will send those not found in the book of life into the lake of fire for eternity. If they don't already have eternal life then it is a hard question as to why God would suddenly give them eternal life just to torment them for all of eternity. That doesn't make any sense as to how God portrays Himself in the bible. The only way it makes sense is that we already have an eternal soul/spirit so God had to do something.
    Your right it doesn't make sense if you believe in eternal punishment, it would be more merciful to just let the dead remain dead. Another thing that doesn't make sense to me it the belief that the lost are being punished now, when they haven't even been judged yet. That isn't just.

    Since we are created in the image of God in his likeness and he is eternal so why wouldn't we be..?
    Remember God sent Adam and Eve out of the garden before they had the chance to eat of the tree of life and live forever.

    The Resurrection is necessary for the dead to live again.
    "and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. (John 5:29) "
    Logos is getting his butt kicked right now.. he has all those quotes and some don't seem to mean what he thinks they mean..
    In your opinion. I think Logos is doing a excellent job.

  5. #50
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xavier47
    Christ told Peter EXACTLY how and when Peter was going to deny Him... He was precise in His prediction... Sounds like absolute foreknowledge to me...
    Read this or this.
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  6. #51
    Rookie denversurvivor's Avatar
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    Who cares what others think? Give me the BIBLE!

    Pastor Kevin used11 Biblical references to validate at least a portion of his assertions.

    By contrast logos_x used: quotes from 25 people (including a few agnostics and at least one atheist) a concordance word search, an etymology book, two commentaries, two lexicons, and two dictionaries. The only scripture Logos used as proof text was a passing reference to the prodigal son. And trying to pull theology out of a parable is never a good idea. I sure hope more scripture is coming from Logos.


    My score: PK 11 Logos_X 1/2

    I know you canít score the debate solely on who can quote the Bible more, but I did think it was interesting.
    Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Romans 12:9

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    Rookie denversurvivor's Avatar
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    Focus People

    Quote Originally Posted by xavier47
    Then He's not all-knowing? Is He God, then?
    The omni's and the im's are a dabate for another day.
    Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Romans 12:9

  8. #53
    Registered User Just Tom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimberlyann

    Remember God sent Adam and Eve out of the garden before they had the chance to eat of the tree of life and live forever.
    But he did this after they had fallen so he must have had a reason since if they would have then they would have lived forever in their fallen state and that would be miserable for them and God..

    The Resurrection is necessary for the dead to live again.
    "and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. (John 5:29) "
    In your opinion. I think Logos is doing a excellent job.
    I heard that the place those are before the judgment is a place called Abraham's bosom you know that parable..

    A resurrection to a spiritual body for you soul to reside in... Not a complete recreating of their being..

  9. #54
    Rookie Greenrage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by logos_x
    "Fear not he who can kill the flesh, but fear he who can kill both the flesh and the soul" clearly negates a soul that cannot be killed.
    The issue is what is meant by 'to kill the soul". He doesn't mean death as in cessation, but spiritual death, as in separation for love.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse
    God knew they were going to eat from the tree? Okay, so then, why did God tell them not to?
    God is not all knowing? Orthodox?

    Here is why God told Adam not to.

    Rom. 7:7

    10 I found that the very commandment (Do Not Eat of That Tree or any commandment from God) that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.


    It is the doctrine of eternal torment alone, which is causing many to believe God isn't really all knowing.

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    Logos,

    I admire the gift God has given you. It may seem futile, but please keep on keepin on.

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    Another premise that I will seek to establish is this: IF the Lake of Fire were not eternal, then the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, a perfect, sinless, and eternal being, would not have been necessary! In other words a temporary punishment would require a lesser sacrifice then the sacrifice of an eternal, divine being!
    Death is a serious, eternal penalty

    Regardless of the reality of the Lake of Fire, the fact that our death is not a good enough reason for Jesus to die is mind boggling. It must be because so many Christians donít think we truly die.

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    Wanderer,


    You can even find examples of strident Calvinist (ie Warfield) who held that the elect comprised the vast majority of humanity.
    I would have to come a little closer to the truth too, if I believed, like Warfield, that those who aren't predestined to life, are then predestined to eternal torment.

    In other words, what thinking person could live with the idea that the majority of people were predestined for eternal torment. He couldn't live with it. So he had to ignore part of his doctrine (the road to life is narrow and few find it) but accept the other part. In other words, he became clearly inconsistent.

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    Questions I would like to have answered in the current Battle Royal.

    1. In the Book of Revelation there are 8 passages of Scripture mentioning the "overcomers" of the Lord. Why are ONLY overcomers mentioned as not being "hurt" by the Lake of Fire?

    2. If only "overcomers" are not hurt by the second death/ a.k.a. the Lake of Fire, are the vast majority of the house of God subject to the Lake?

    3.What does hurt/ ajdikevw in the Koine mean?

    4. How does the Lake differ from our God the Consuming Fire?

    5. How does the Lake compare with our God the Consuming Fire?

    6. What is the significance of theion, and why is theion rooted in Theos?

    7. Where & when did the Lake originate? Before Genesis? Before sin? After sin?

    8. Are there early statements in Church history regarding the Lake of Fire and its significance?

    9. Is fire in Scripture alway portrayed in a negative connotation?

    10. Does Fire symbolize Deity in the Scriptures? Where?

  15. #60
    Registered User Just Tom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChasClean
    Logos,

    I admire the gift God has given you. It may seem futile, but please keep on keepin on.

    What gift? The one for formating his posts so well. Because he sure didn't win round one with all is extra-biblical references and his attempt at word games with the greek text..

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