User Tag List

Page 247 of 258 FirstFirst ... 147197237244245246247248249250257 ... LastLast
Results 3,691 to 3,705 of 3859

Thread: BRXII Battle talk

  1. #3691
    Over 1000 post club
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Nottingham UK
    Posts
    1,107
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    God does not intend to "salvage" anybody. God has stated very clearly that Jesus is going to sort everybody into one of two groups. One group goes with Jesus to be with God forever. The other group does not, they go someplace else forever. There is no need for God to "salvage" when He is the judge.
    In that case Jesus didn't really come to save the world then, I'm sorry you still think that God cannot restore everything, we're just at another impasse....

  2. #3692
    Over 1500 post club Frank Ernest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Clarksville, IN
    Posts
    1,583
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1522
    Quote Originally Posted by red77 View Post
    There is plenty of scriptural discourse that describes the restituion of all things, it's only doctrines that claim that for evil to be erradicated by association means either having people in a bizarrely illogical place of pointless torment or annihalted that won't allow the possibility - again limiting God in what he can and cannot salvage from his own creation
    This is what God has said. Whatever limits we might perceive on that is from what God has said. Now, if you wish to "enhance" God by assuming some wild guess about what He COULD do, go ahead.
    Trickery? Confusion? This verse is neither misleading or confusing, it needs no assumption if read as a clear sentence, "God is the saviour of all men, especially of those who believe", what could be clearer than that?
    If you want to hang your salvation on your misbegotten assumption about one verse from the Bible, be my guest.
    Well like I said if we can't even use basic logic for the parameters of this debate then what exactly is the point?
    You tell me. You're the one who decided logic isn't good enough.
    It's obvious that for people to not be annihalated and still exist in some form or other suffering agonies of one sort or another - then that means that there is some portion of a physical or metaphysical realm that is not eradicated from sin as sinners still exist and thereofore so does sin,
    You do an excellent job of ignoring what I'm posting, refusing to answer to it, and continuing to hammer on your unwarranted assumption.
    If God says he will reconcile all things to himself then I take it to mean ALL, not some or a fraction, to say it's a 'touchy feely' idea that God can restore evrey last thing he has created serves only to limit God, let me ask you straight, do you think God is capable of restoring his own creation after taking into account man's will and his own fallibility -or not?
    God says He will reconcile everything to Himself. Where does it say He will restore creation?
    I believe he can, those who believe in ET or annihalationsim are bound to say 'No' because of the constraints their own doctrinal belief place on the power of God
    I didn't place any limits on God's power. You keep telling me He will not do what He said He will exactly do.
    Surely you realise that no-one believes that's how it goes Frank, if you do then I suggest you reread the Battle Royale as you're arguing a complete strawman.....
    Skip the rhetorical BS. You don't have a case. I've shown you don't have a case. All Universalism does, following your argument, is make God a liar.

    Psalm 144

  3. #3693
    Over 1000 post club
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Nottingham UK
    Posts
    1,107
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Ernest View Post
    This is what God has said. Whatever limits we might perceive on that is from what God has said. Now, if you wish to "enhance" God by assuming some wild guess about what He COULD do, go ahead.
    I believe that God can restore all that he creates, that isn't 'enhancing' God.....I just believe that he can actually save and restore his entire creation and plenty of scripture backs that up....

    If you want to hang your salvation on your misbegotten assumption about one verse from the Bible, be my guest.
    It's hardly just the one verse Frank, although that seems to be providing you with a great deal of difficulty to refute just by itself...

    You tell me. You're the one who decided logic isn't good enough.
    I am using logic, how is it illogical to presume that if people are kept in a state of unending existence and torment that sin itself is not vanquished, please explain how this is not logical....

    You do an excellent job of ignoring what I'm posting, refusing to answer to it, and continuing to hammer on your unwarranted assumption.
    Come off it Frank, I've answered you in good faith every time you've posted, you might disagree with my position but I've not obfuscated anything or if I have then feel free to show me just where exactly and how i've ignored any of your questions and i'll answer.....
    God says He will reconcile everything to Himself. Where does it say He will restore creation?
    Well, if God reconciles everything to himself how can he lose any of what he has created?

    I didn't place any limits on God's power. You keep telling me He will not do what He said He will exactly do.
    Frank, by your own admission you don't know exactly what God will do, thats why you're not even sure between ET and annihaltion, I can hardly place limits on God if I am saying he can restore all of his own creation, but both ET and annihilation by default claim that God cannot.....

    Skip the rhetorical BS. You don't have a case. I've shown you don't have a case. All Universalism does, following your argument, is make God a liar.
    All you've shown is uncertainty within yourself in what you believe, I merely pointed out to you that if you think that universalism means that everyone can do what they want and not reap consequences then you're way wrong - which you are, the fact that I can believe that God has a purpose that transcends both ET and annihaltionaism, that God can fulfill his own will, (after all, doesnt God work all things out within the conformity of the purpose of his will?) and that God can actually be the saviour of the world can hardly make him a liar.......

  4. #3694
    Over 1500 post club Frank Ernest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Clarksville, IN
    Posts
    1,583
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1522
    Quote Originally Posted by red77 View Post
    I believe that God can restore all that he creates, that isn't 'enhancing' God.....I just believe that he can actually save and restore his entire creation and plenty of scripture backs that up....
    Great! Implicit in that is that God's creation or parts of it are flawed by design. Not buying it.
    It's hardly just the one verse Frank, although that seems to be providing you with a great deal of difficulty to refute just by itself...
    I've had no problem with it. You're the one who keeps hammering away on it. Rather pointless.
    I am using logic, how is it illogical to presume that if people are kept in a state of unending existence and torment that sin itself is not vanquished, please explain how this is not logical....
    An unwarranted assumption is not logic. It's a flight of fantasy which is unacceptable.
    Come off it Frank, I've answered you in good faith every time you've posted, you might disagree with my position but I've not obfuscated anything or if I have then feel free to show me just where exactly and how i've ignored any of your questions and i'll answer.....
    You keep hammering away at your key assumptions showing no regard whatsoever for what I've posted. then you have the audacity to claim "no answer." You don't like the answer, have no rebuttal to it, so, you're left with a stubborn disregard for anything but your untenable POV.
    Well, if God reconciles everything to himself how can he lose any of what he has created?
    Who said He would lose anything? Another fantastic assumption.
    Frank, by your own admission you don't know exactly what God will do, thats why you're not even sure between ET and annihaltion, I can hardly place limits on God if I am saying he can restore all of his own creation, but both ET and annihilation by default claim that God cannot.....
    Hammer away and all you're doing now is making noise. God has said He will eliminate evil from eternity. I do not question what God has said He will do. I'm not entirely sure of how He will do it. That's my problem, not God's. Your problem is claiming what God COULD do as opposed to what He has explicity stated He WILL do.
    All you've shown is uncertainty within yourself in what you believe, I merely pointed out to you that if you think that universalism means that everyone can do what they want and not reap consequences then you're way wrong - which you are, the fact that I can believe that God has a purpose that transcends both ET and annihaltionaism, that God can fulfill his own will, (after all, doesnt God work all things out within the conformity of the purpose of his will?) and that God can actually be the saviour of the world can hardly make him a liar.......
    You can believe anything you want. God said He came here to save us. God said some are not going to make the cut. My ONLY problem is making the cut. I do not care that you fantasize it will be some way other than what God has explicitly stated He will do. My job is to encourage as many as will to make the cut. God did not ever say my job was to quibble with people about what He will do or could do.

    Psalm 144

  5. #3695
    Over 1000 post club
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Nottingham UK
    Posts
    1,107
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Ernest View Post
    Great! Implicit in that is that God's creation or parts of it are flawed by design. Not buying it.
    Implicit by your own assumption, the world is flawed now right? You don't blame God for that though also right? Isn't it mankind who caused the world to fall into it's current state?
    therefore if you accept that it doesn't imply that there is anything wrong with the original creation, merely believing that God can restore a fallen world does not imply anything other than that....

    I've had no problem with it. You're the one who keeps hammering away on it. Rather pointless.
    it is pointless if you cannot provide a logical argument as to why this verse should not in fact be read literally....

    An unwarranted assumption is not logic. It's a flight of fantasy which is unacceptable.
    Then please explain how this is an 'unwarranted assumption' or 'flight of fancy', why is the argument illogical? if people are kept 'alive' in some realm/dimension and they still have sin then how can sin be fully vanquished? I'm not annihalationist obviously but I can see the logic in it as all sin is just destroyed, there is no realm where it exists at all correct?

    You keep hammering away at your key assumptions showing no regard whatsoever for what I've posted. then you have the audacity to claim "no answer." You don't like the answer, have no rebuttal to it, so, you're left with a stubborn disregard for anything but your untenable POV.
    Frank - i've offered to address any point that you've raised if it appears that I've overlooked it or ignored it, I can do no more than that, show me what it is that i've had no rebuttal for or missed and i'll address it, I can't do any more than that...

    Who said He would lose anything? Another fantastic assumption.
    If a shepherd loses one of his sheep has he kept his entire flock? If God loses just one person for an eternity away then that person is still part of God's creation, hardly a fantastic assumption, just basic logic again....

    Hammer away and all you're doing now is making noise. God has said He will eliminate evil from eternity. I do not question what God has said He will do. I'm not entirely sure of how He will do it. That's my problem, not God's. Your problem is claiming what God COULD do as opposed to what He has explicity stated He WILL do.
    I am in no disagreement over God eliminating evil for eternity, it's one of the very reasons why I don't believe in ET, why do I have a problem? I believe God can erradicate evil and restore his own world, he says he came to save the world and I believe it...

    You can believe anything you want. God said He came here to save us. God said some are not going to make the cut. My ONLY problem is making the cut. I do not care that you fantasize it will be some way other than what God has explicitly stated He will do. My job is to encourage as many as will to make the cut. God did not ever say my job was to quibble with people about what He will do or could do.
    With all respect if you were so sure that God has explicitly stated what he will do then you should know what happens to those who don't make the 'cut' as you call it, and I didn't say that God did say that your job is to quibble with others about what he can and can't do, but this is a theology debating forum after all....!

  6. #3696
    Over 1500 post club Frank Ernest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Clarksville, IN
    Posts
    1,583
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1522
    Quote Originally Posted by red77 View Post
    Implicit by your own assumption, the world is flawed now right? You don't blame God for that though also right? Isn't it mankind who caused the world to fall into it's current state?
    It was your argument. You figure it out. (By the way, assigning your argument to me as if it were mine constitutes trickery.)
    therefore if you accept that it doesn't imply that there is anything wrong with the original creation, merely believing that God can restore a fallen world does not imply anything other than that....
    That is more of what God COULD do, rather than what He has said He WILL do.
    it is pointless if you cannot provide a logical argument as to why this verse should not in fact be read literally....
    I do read it literally. You're the one with interpretation problems.
    Then please explain how this is an 'unwarranted assumption' or 'flight of fancy', why is the argument illogical? if people are kept 'alive' in some realm/dimension and they still have sin then how can sin be fully vanquished?
    For the ninety-ninth time, your assumption that there is such a place is dreaming on your part.
    I'm not annihalationist obviously but I can see the logic in it as all sin is just destroyed, there is no realm where it exists at all correct?
    God's word says evil and sin will be eradicated from us and the earth for eternity. That is all it says.
    Frank - i've offered to address any point that you've raised if it appears that I've overlooked it or ignored it, I can do no more than that, show me what it is that i've had no rebuttal for or missed and i'll address it, I can't do any more than that...
    You either can't or don't want to look at your own arguments. All you're doing is hammering on the same points over and over trying to force an agreement.
    If a shepherd loses one of his sheep has he kept his entire flock? If God loses just one person for an eternity away then that person is still part of God's creation, hardly a fantastic assumption, just basic logic again....
    I do not dispute that "that person" is part of God's creation. I do not dispute that the shepherd will leave the secure 99 to find that which is lost. The Bible is clear that some will be lost for eternity despite God's desire that all be saved. It is a fantastic assumption to believe that all will be saved, regardless.
    I am in no disagreement over God eliminating evil for eternity, it's one of the very reasons why I don't believe in ET, why do I have a problem? I believe God can erradicate evil and restore his own world, he says he came to save the world and I believe it...
    What you're telling me is salvation regardless of free will. God never said that. If He had, there would be no need for the Christ, no Final Judgment ever, and no resolution of Good vs. Evil ever.
    With all respect if you were so sure that God has explicitly stated what he will do then you should know what happens to those who don't make the 'cut' as you call it, and I didn't say that God did say that your job is to quibble with others about what he can and can't do, but this is a theology debating forum after all....!
    This whole thing is about your assumption of what God COULD do as opposed to what He has said He WILL do. Somehow, God's declaration of what He WILL do offends you.

    Psalm 144

  7. #3697
    Over 750 post club Balder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Kahleefornia, you girlyman
    Posts
    845
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    188
    And Frank, you are not offended by the idea of throwing living beings into a Lake of Fire, not to be burned up immediately, but to suffer and scream there forever?
    "Perhaps everything terrible is in its deepest being something that needs our love" ~ Rainer Maria Rilke

  8. #3698
    Over 1500 post club Frank Ernest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Clarksville, IN
    Posts
    1,583
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1522
    Quote Originally Posted by Balder View Post
    And Frank, you are not offended by the idea of throwing living beings into a Lake of Fire, not to be burned up immediately, but to suffer and scream there forever?
    I am not offended by anything God said He will do. Did He say that's what He will do?

    Psalm 144

  9. #3699
    Veteran Redfin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    310
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    181

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Ernest View Post
    I am not offended by anything God said He will do. Did He say that's what He will do?
    No.

    That's what men (including translators of various versions of the Bible) have mis-interpreted Him as saying He would do.

    That's the whole point of this thread and the BR.

    "The truly wise talk little about religion, and are not given to taking sides on doctrinal issues...
    They have no time, they say, for that kind of thing.
    They have enough to do in trying to faithfully practice what is beyond dispute."

    -- George MacDonald

  10. #3700
    Over 1000 post club
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Nottingham UK
    Posts
    1,107
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Ernest View Post
    It was your argument. You figure it out. (By the way, assigning your argument to me as if it were mine constitutes trickery.)
    Saying that God had created an imperfect world was never my argument, i merely pointed that out to you after you had seemingly assumed that it was
    That is more of what God COULD do, rather than what He has said He WILL do.
    Where has God said that he won't restore his own world? I see it written in plenty of sriptures that this is what God intends to do

    I do read it literally. You're the one with interpretation problems.
    If you read it literally then you should have no problem with accepting that God is the saviour of all men and not just believers, that's what the verse says......

    For the ninety-ninth time, your assumption that there is such a place is dreaming on your part.
    then.....please explain how there can't be some place or realm/dimension or whatever if millions of people are kept in a state of eternal sufering, and how sin and evil aren't fully vanquished as a result? How is any of this not logical?

    God's word says evil and sin will be eradicated from us and the earth for eternity. That is all it says.
    Which I have no problem with

    You either can't or don't want to look at your own arguments. All you're doing is hammering on the same points over and over trying to force an agreement.
    All i've asked is for you to point to any of your own arguments which you feel that I haven't addressed, i just can't do any more than that, surely i'm being reasonable about it?

    I do not dispute that "that person" is part of God's creation. I do not dispute that the shepherd will leave the secure 99 to find that which is lost. The Bible is clear that some will be lost for eternity despite God's desire that all be saved. It is a fantastic assumption to believe that all will be saved, regardless.
    where is it clear exactly? And why is not just as much a fantastic assumption to believe that God can't save everyone?

    What you're telling me is salvation regardless of free will. God never said that. If He had, there would be no need for the Christ, no Final Judgment ever, and no resolution of Good vs. Evil ever.
    That isn't what I'm teeling you although I don't believe in absolute free will anyway, what you're saying is that if Jesus's sacrifice is 100% successful it somehow renders it invalid, which makes no sense, and I have no idea why you think that the salvation of everyone would also invalidate the resolution of good and evil, you'll have to explain that one....

    This whole thing is about your assumption of what God COULD do as opposed to what He has said He WILL do. Somehow, God's declaration of what He WILL do offends you.
    why would it? i can believe he will restore his own creation as this is what he states as his intent

  11. #3701
    Over 1500 post club Frank Ernest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Clarksville, IN
    Posts
    1,583
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1522
    Quote Originally Posted by Redfin View Post
    No.

    That's what men (including translators of various versions of the Bible) have mis-interpreted Him as saying He would do.

    That's the whole point of this thread and the BR.

    Revelation 20:10. Please interpret correctly.

    Psalm 144

  12. #3702
    Over 750 post club Balder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Kahleefornia, you girlyman
    Posts
    845
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    188
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Ernest View Post
    Revelation 20:10. Please interpret correctly.
    Please interpret Revelation 20:10 in conjunction with the following passage:

    And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

    ...and tell me if you think God plans to subject individuals not found in the Book of Life to the same punishment and torment as Satan.
    "Perhaps everything terrible is in its deepest being something that needs our love" ~ Rainer Maria Rilke

  13. #3703
    Eclectic Theosophist freelight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Bend, OR. USA
    Posts
    7,478
    Thanks
    2,757
    Thanked 1,760 Times in 1,267 Posts

    Blog Entries
    90
    Mentioned
    71 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1492455

    Mono Theos Ultima!

    *~*~*~


    Greetings all,

    What is most amazing is how some place literal translations of a few passages and take them for 'absolute truth'. They hold to these cryptions written long ago and take them at face-value and then impose them as definitives of what God is 'supposedly' going to do....without getting to know God first as He actually exists in TRUTH. Knowing God first is fundamental and this 'Real God' is Eternal Love and Light. Divine Mercy is everlasting. Gods Supreme Goodness is INFINITE. Realizing this Truth....we see that nothing can annul the underlying, all-pervading Power of divine Will which upholds all things and is forever bringing to pass the plans and purposes of Gods Heart. God Alone is Absolute Truth,...being all Love, all Light, NOW and forever. Is there a power greater than Gods? Is God not able by His Omniradiant Love and Supreme Power to draw all men to HimSelf? Divine Love being Eternal, Infinite, Immutable, Inviolate, Imperishable, Undending... ultimately and utterly prevails.

    This is the Triumph of the One Divine and Eternal LIFE....the glory of the Christ, the Restoration of all creation in the Messiah, the restitution of all things, the culmination of Loves enfolding, the apex of Mercys embrace. GOD: All in all.


    *~*~*~


    paul

  14. #3704
    Over 3000 post club PKevman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN.
    Posts
    3,630
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 72 Times in 72 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2165
    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    *~*~*~


    Greetings all,

    What is most amazing is how some place literal translations of a few passages and take them for 'absolute truth'. They hold to these cryptions written long ago and take them at face-value and then impose them as definitives of what God is 'supposedly' going to do....without getting to know God first as He actually exists in TRUTH. Knowing God first is fundamental and this 'Real God' is Eternal Love and Light. Divine Mercy is everlasting. Gods Supreme Goodness is INFINITE. Realizing this Truth....we see that nothing can annul the underlying, all-pervading Power of divine Will which upholds all things and is forever bringing to pass the plans and purposes of Gods Heart. God Alone is Absolute Truth,...being all Love, all Light, NOW and forever. Is there a power greater than Gods? Is God not able by His Omniradiant Love and Supreme Power to draw all men to HimSelf? Divine Love being Eternal, Infinite, Immutable, Inviolate, Imperishable, Undending... ultimately and utterly prevails.

    This is the Triumph of the One Divine and Eternal LIFE....the glory of the Christ, the Restoration of all creation in the Messiah, the restitution of all things, the culmination of Loves enfolding, the apex of Mercys embrace. GOD: All in all.


    *~*~*~


    paul
    HOGWASH!

    Freelight, you need to stick with your metaphysical mumbo jumbo. God's Word is clear that those who don't repent and turn from their sins will be judged eternally and cast into the Lake of Fire with no hope of ever getting out. When you or any Universalist can provide the Bible verse that clearly shows anyone getting out of the Lake of Fire you will have a ground to stand on. This debate and the BR go back to early December of last year, and I have been debating this with Universalists on this board for almost a year, and not one Universalist has been able to provide that Bible verse that clearly teaches someone gets out of the Lake of Fire. You can base your views on wild speculations all you want to, but we will base our views on what God says in His Word.

  15. #3705
    Over 3000 post club PKevman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN.
    Posts
    3,630
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 72 Times in 72 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2165
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Ernest View Post
    Revelation 20:10. Please interpret correctly.
    They are consciously tormented day and night forever and ever and they never get out. Which is exactly what the verse says. Anyone who denies it denies the Word of God and calls God a liar.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us