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Thread: BRXII Battle talk

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    Quote Originally Posted by red77 View Post
    For death to be defeated it has to be extinguished, the ET'ers idea of death being defeated is to be in a state of conscious existence experiending unending pain and torture, that is not death of any description
    Death is destroyed by being cast into the same lake of fire that those whos names are not in the book of life are cast into. With death destroyed there is no respite for them. Hence - eternal torment.



    Quote Originally Posted by red77
    You are missing the point, you claim that to preach a gospel where eternal torment is not part of the equation could result in people not taking heed and ending up there as you have alluded to several times in this thread, otherwise why ask 'what if you're wrong'? That places the responsibility on the shoulders of men to 'get it right', and do you in all honesty believe that all atheists/agnostics etc 'choose' not to believe and 'choose' to go to a place of unending torment when they dont actually believe that such a place exists? That argument gets more unreal each time I hear it.....
    People need to know that there are consequences to their choices. The athiest and agnostic have chosen to ignore the gospel. The athiests and agnostics on this site have no execuse, they have heard the gosple and reject it. They will be held accountable accordingly. The fact that they don't believe in God does not mean that God does not believe in them.




    Quote Originally Posted by red77
    People are hardly 'idiotic' for recoiling away from a message which promotes senseless agonising pain,it goes against the vast majority of people's sense of morality that a God would be a sadistic tormentor of souls, it is a horrific and alienating message with no hope in it at all.... and if the only reason we commit acts of goodness and altruism is to avoid having our butts thrown in a torture pit then that just makes those acts as genuine as crocodile tears, that argument is totally flawed, are you trying to say that all of those who dont believe are incapable of genuine goodness - that most people who dont believe think that they can get away with what they want because there isnt an ETERNAL agony awaiting them? I know several atheists and agnostics who have shown great altruism and dont even expect a reward for their actions.....
    And I do happen to trust that God will be 'just', you seem to think the ONLY way that God could be just is to torment people for ever.....
    All those who don't beileve are utterly incapable of good works that will save them. Know why? Because you are not saved by works. Timothy talks about this. The good works we do are a result of salvation, not an effort to stay out of hell. Your message is always the negative, "You do this to avoid that." Thats wrong. The proper view is we do good because we are saved. So all those aluristic works done by all those wonderful athiests and agnostics count for nothing.

    Matthew 25 talks about this. When seperating the goats and the sheep Jesus talks a little about what seperates them. The sheep did good works and didn't even relize they were doing them. It came naturally, the result of a saving faith in Christ. The goats said all the right things but their motivation was not of Christ, it was from selfish desires. The sheep are saved, the goats are not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    Death is destroyed by being cast into the same lake of fire that those whos names are not in the book of life are cast into. With death destroyed there is no respite for them. Hence - eternal torment.




    People need to know that there are consequences to their choices. The athiest and agnostic have chosen to ignore the gospel. The athiests and agnostics on this site have no execuse, they have heard the gosple and reject it. They will be held accountable accordingly. The fact that they don't believe in God does not mean that God does not believe in them.




    All those who don't beileve are utterly incapable of good works that will save them. Know why? Because you are not saved by works. Timothy talks about this. The good works we do are a result of salvation, not an effort to stay out of hell. Your message is always the negative, "You do this to avoid that." Thats wrong. The proper view is we do good because we are saved. So all those aluristic works done by all those wonderful athiests and agnostics count for nothing.

    Matthew 25 talks about this. When seperating the goats and the sheep Jesus talks a little about what seperates them. The sheep did good works and didn't even relize they were doing them. It came naturally, the result of a saving faith in Christ. The goats said all the right things but their motivation was not of Christ, it was from selfish desires. The sheep are saved, the goats are not.
    What about this argument requires there to be an unending torment?

    Explain this in a way that is in line with the entire witness of scripture.

    If what you are saying is true...then why is it that there was no official controversy over Origin's systematic theology that contained the salvation of all men from it's publication until Augustine in the 6th century?

    Why is it that, after Augustine, the Roman Church then declared all the theologians that did not believe as Augustine lined out with eternal damnation to be heretics...and later launched into inquisitions and torture to further it's enforcment of the precious "truth"?

    Why is it that Justinian wanted "endless" added to the scriptures that supposedly teach "eternal" torment already?

    Further...why is it even accepted at all that eternal torment is what God designed as the outcome?

    Until these are scripturally answered...there will always be arguments against the doctrine of eternal torment. They will never just go away..but those that believe in eternal torment will accept nothing else.

    That much is apparent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    Death is destroyed by being cast into the same lake of fire that those whos names are not in the book of life are cast into. With death destroyed there is no respite for them. Hence - eternal torment.
    Thats a hell of a leap, what do you think the lake of fire is again btw? Not a physical lake I seem to recall, what then?




    People need to know that there are consequences to their choices. The athiest and agnostic have chosen to ignore the gospel. The athiests and agnostics on this site have no execuse, they have heard the gosple and reject it. They will be held accountable accordingly. The fact that they don't believe in God does not mean that God does not believe in them.
    Peopl already KNOW there are consequences to their actions, we all suffer for our mistakes in the life we have in the here and now but there's a point to that suffering usually, to learn - develop - mature etc.....We are frail human flesh CM - and we ALL make mistakes of varying degrees, God seemed to know that with his answer to the disciples - left to mans own devices very few would find the right path, but thankfully all kinds of things are possible for God



    All those who don't beileve are utterly incapable of good works that will save them. Know why? Because you are not saved by works. Timothy talks about this. The good works we do are a result of salvation, not an effort to stay out of hell. Your message is always the negative, "You do this to avoid that." Thats wrong. The proper view is we do good because we are saved. So all those aluristic works done by all those wonderful athiests and agnostics count for nothing.

    Matthew 25 talks about this. When seperating the goats and the sheep Jesus talks a little about what seperates them. The sheep did good works and didn't even relize they were doing them. It came naturally, the result of a saving faith in Christ. The goats said all the right things but their motivation was not of Christ, it was from selfish desires. The sheep are saved, the goats are not.
    The point is that people are capable of good works and altruism without even looking for any type of reward for it, your earlier argument indicated that you think that people 'want their cake and eat it', (as a slight sidetrack that is such a stupid saying really IMO as there wouldnt be much point in having cake if you couldnt eat it but....nevermind) indicating that people think that if there's no eternal torment they can get away with what they want, that is just not true - and that is just the Pascal wager coming into effect if the good samarirtans are only doing it for either fear of punishment of garnering their own 'pockets', the altrusitic works of those who dont believe will still count for a lot to those whom they've helped, and the 'sheep and the goats' applies very much to believers, and it seems to place great emphasis on the importance that works have - and why not? Unfortuntately the doctrine of ET takes so much away from the horrendous suffering that people encounter in the world as it is IMO
    "Either these curtains go or I do...."

    - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

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    Quote Originally Posted by red77 View Post
    Thats a hell of a leap, what do you think the lake of fire is again btw? Not a physical lake I seem to recall, what then?
    It is a physical lake of fire and brimstone. I believe that Revelations includes a description of the creation of this lake. I do not think it has been created yet. It is created when God's wrath is released upon the Earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by red77
    Peopl already KNOW there are consequences to their actions, we all suffer for our mistakes in the life we have in the here and now but there's a point to that suffering usually, to learn - develop - mature etc.....We are frail human flesh CM - and we ALL make mistakes of varying degrees, God seemed to know that with his answer to the disciples - left to mans own devices very few would find the right path, but thankfully all kinds of things are possible for God
    THankfully God has explained His plan to us. Whether you bleieve what He says about His plan or not makes no difference. God has said what He means to do and God WILL do what said.

    As you point out, people make "mistakes" every day and pay the proce for them. You cheat on your wife and get caught. The penalty is a very messy divorce that hurst you, your wife and your children. "Mistakes" are not without consequence. Those types of "mistakes" are also not imputed as a sin against you.


    Quote Originally Posted by red77
    The point is that people are capable of good works and altruism without even looking for any type of reward for it, your earlier argument indicated that you think that people 'want their cake and eat it', (as a slight sidetrack that is such a stupid saying really IMO as there wouldnt be much point in having cake if you couldnt eat it but....nevermind) indicating that people think that if there's no eternal torment they can get away with what they want, that is just not true - and that is just the Pascal wager coming into effect if the good samarirtans are only doing it for either fear of punishment of garnering their own 'pockets', the altrusitic works of those who dont believe will still count for a lot to those whom they've helped, and the 'sheep and the goats' applies very much to believers, and it seems to place great emphasis on the importance that works have - and why not? Unfortuntately the doctrine of ET takes so much away from the horrendous suffering that people encounter in the world as it is IMO
    Your opinion, and mine, count for nothing. They are foolishness before God. The good works done by those that don't believe may help those who are on the receiving end of those works, but they count for nothing towards the person who does them if that person is appart from God. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. No works are included there. Works araise from a saving faith.

    As for sheep and goats, sheep know their Shepards voice, goats do not. Sheep and goats are not all believers, only the sheep for Jesus knows them. He knows not the goats meaning the goats have no faith maing them unbelievers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    It is a physical lake of fire and brimstone. I believe that Revelations includes a description of the creation of this lake. I do not think it has been created yet. It is created when God's wrath is released upon the Earth.
    I'm sorry but - ridiculous, please tell me how one would go about 'casting death' into a physical lake of fire?! And just how much more of revelation do you interpret literally - all of it?


    THankfully God has explained His plan to us. Whether you bleieve what He says about His plan or not makes no difference. God has said what He means to do and God WILL do what said.

    As you point out, people make "mistakes" every day and pay the proce for them. You cheat on your wife and get caught. The penalty is a very messy divorce that hurst you, your wife and your children. "Mistakes" are not without consequence. Those types of "mistakes" are also not imputed as a sin against you.
    Yes, a plan that contains unbelievably more hope and love than the one of pointless and sadistic unending suffering, you admit we're frail flesh and yet it seems that the only justifiable consequence for you is for all those who didnt catch the right path to be ETERNALLY tormented for their mistake, the next time you burn yourself for half a second on a hot stove I hope you really really really think what it is that you believe requites 'justice'


    Your opinion, and mine, count for nothing. They are foolishness before God. The good works done by those that don't believe may help those who are on the receiving end of those works, but they count for nothing towards the person who does them if that person is appart from God. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. No works are included there. Works araise from a saving faith.

    As for sheep and goats, sheep know their Shepards voice, goats do not. Sheep and goats are not all believers, only the sheep for Jesus knows them. He knows not the goats meaning the goats have no faith maing them unbelievers.
    Then if our opinions count for nothing at all why bother even debating? Are you saying that our opinions are foolish regardless of who's giving them? I'm not arguing that works = salvation, just that the argument that all those who dont believe are 'wanting their cakes and eating them' is a complete strawman, many people who dont believe arent 'evil' in the sense of living all out for what they can get which is what you seemed to be alluding to earlier, as for the sheep and the goats - well - all those who are sent away obviously thought they were believers and had 'faith', otherwise why would they claim to be able to cast out demons?
    "Either these curtains go or I do...."

    - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

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    Quote Originally Posted by red77 View Post
    I'm sorry but - ridiculous, please tell me how one would go about 'casting death' into a physical lake of fire?! And just how much more of revelation do you interpret literally - all of it?
    God destroying about a third of the world. The pestulance and famine and war. The final war between god and the devil. A good portioin of it can be literal. I think the descriptions of the beast rising up are not litteral.




    Quote Originally Posted by red77
    Yes, a plan that contains unbelievably more hope and love than the one of pointless and sadistic unending suffering, you admit we're frail flesh and yet it seems that the only justifiable consequence for you is for all those who didnt catch the right path to be ETERNALLY tormented for their mistake, the next time you burn yourself for half a second on a hot stove I hope you really really really think what it is that you believe requites 'justice'
    I didn't make the rules. I don't think the lake of fire is intended to be remedial, its punitive.




    Quote Originally Posted by red77
    Then if our opinions count for nothing at all why bother even debating?
    Because its fun to make universalists look silly!

    Quote Originally Posted by red77
    Are you saying that our opinions are foolish regardless of who's giving them? I'm not arguing that works = salvation, just that the argument that all those who dont believe are 'wanting their cakes and eating them' is a complete strawman, many people who dont believe arent 'evil' in the sense of living all out for what they can get which is what you seemed to be alluding to earlier, as for the sheep and the goats - well - all those who are sent away obviously thought they were believers and had 'faith', otherwise why would they claim to be able to cast out demons?
    Its no strawman. Lets say I need money. I know that if I rob a bank I might spend some time in jail. I also know that if I hide the money well enough it will be waiting for me when I get out. So if I am willing to do the time in prison I know that when I get out I will have all that money to play with. Prison loses its threat as a deterant. On the other hand, if I know that I will never get out of prison if I'm caught then the math works out a little different. Ten years in jail is one thing, life in jail is quite a different thing. What use is all that money if I will never get to enjoy it.

    Same thing with sinners. If I want to spend my life ignoring God, sleeping with anybody I feel like, neglecting my parents and familly, lying about my neighbors just to watch them squirm, it does not matter. I will do my time i hell and then I get to go upstairs to be with Jesus. Jesus says no. If you spend your life doing evil (hating God) you will spend your eternity away from God. What is hating God? Telling Him that the blood spilled by His son for your sins is meaningless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by logos_x View Post
    ...it is not a forgone conclusion that they won't, nor that they will.
    That's right logos. A judge can condemn a person and subject them to the penalty the law demands for their crimes, but subjecting their flesh does not mean their will or heart is subjected or ever will be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by red77 View Post
    What are you on about?
    The B-I-B-L-E... it doesn't agree with you.

    Its basic common sense, true remorse, true repentance is heartfelt, it is not influenced by fear or even a desire for reward if it is to be genuine
    You obviously don't understand it because you never experienced it. Just because you have never experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You can't make my witness go away.

    What is your witness red?

    yes, same stuff, you are a total hypocrite
    ...said the lying hypocrite.
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    Even if the term 'aions' means ages, there's no one who's going to be 'turned' holy by being tormented in flames for thousands of years. It just doesn't make sense to believe that they will. Even if they were, they'd turn back to their old ways, first chance they get.
    "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." -- Amos 3:7

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    Quote Originally Posted by logos_x View Post
    those that believe in eternal torment will accept nothing else.
    Because we accept what the Bible DIRECTLY says, not your long-winded attempts to explain it away. The onus of proof is on you, and the source of your information is corrupt and misleading. It is amazing that earlier you attempted to accuse us of making convoluted arguments, and yet OUR arguments have been based on the Scriptures themselves. YOUR arguments have been attempts to explain WHY you don't think the Scriptures actually say what they say!

    It is a consistent hallmark among Universalists everywhere to attack the credibility of the Scriptures. In fact that is a hallmark of ALL false teaching groups. You can go to JW's, Mormons, etc... and find the same types of arguments (albeit with a different goal in mind).

    That is because the ONLY WAY that Universalists can get people to accept their doctrines is to get them to believe that none of the translations can be trusted except the scant few unreliable ones that are translated the way they want them to be translated.

    You are right. I am extremely close-minded when it comes to compromising on the Word of God. I am not close-minded to consider and study new ideas. I have studied the ideas of Universalists and I for one soundly reject them as unBiblical. You and your cronies continue to reposit the exact same arguments over and over again and the result will always be the same.

    Say and by the way, we are still waiting an answer as to why Universalist Greek "scholars" should be trusted over the myriads who have worked on translating the word of God over the past few hundreds years?

    Also we are awaiting that Scripture verse that clearly shows the Beast, the False Prophet, Satan, the fallen angels, and those whose names are not in the Book of Life being LET OUT of the Lake of Fire.

    Better yet how about that verse that shows HOW the sins of Satan and the fallen angels were paid for, thus allowing them to go to Heaven when the Bible says clearly they will not go there, and that Jesus did NOT die for angels!

    How about the verses that show clearly that someone, ANYONE is given the opportunity to repent AFTER they die?

    Universalism is a system of belief that rests upon a glass house, and when someone throws the stone of truth it SHATTERS everytime!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PastorKevin View Post
    Because we accept what the Bible DIRECTLY says, not your long-winded attempts to explain it away. The onus of proof is on you,...
    No..you rely solely upon the English translations that say the the aions are endless. Then you say that I'm long-winded in explaining that the Greek does not say they are. You say the onus of proof is on me...and then reject whatever proof I offer, and reject the sources...even the comentaries of the scholars that agree with what I've said about the words used in the Hebrew and Greek texts.

    So...Kevin, what would you have me do? Throw up my hands and give up the argument? Quit in disgust?

    Why is the onus of proof on me? Why is it that the onus of proof isn't on you?

    How is it that everything I've said is invalid? WHY are you right about "what the Bible DIRECTLY says" no matter what, while you are at variance with many scriptures...which I continue to point out...and explain THOSE away according to your doctrine?

    consistent hallmark among Universalists everywhere to attack the credibility of the Scriptures. In fact that is a hallmark of ALL false teaching groups. You can go to JW's, Mormons, etc... and find the same types of arguments (albeit with a different goal in mind).
    Where have I attacked the credibility of the scriptures, Kevin? All I've done is point out what the words in those scriptures are in the original language they were written in. I am in disagreement with the way SOME Bibles have translated those texts.

    That is because the ONLY WAY that Universalists can get people to accept their doctrines is to get them to believe that none of the translations can be trusted except the scant few unreliable ones that are translated the way they want them to be translated.
    It is not my fault that the translation YOU rely upon have some flaws that are worthy of being corrected...and it isn't a matter of how I WANT them translated, its a matter of what they actually say, Kevin.

    On this Iv'e pointed out that the Bible uses aion and it's adjectives, never says they are endless. I've also pointed out that four different words with very different meanings were all translated "hell"...and the reasons it was, and how that English word has changed meanings over time as much as "gay" has. I've pointed out the meanings of various other Greek words.

    Now...why do you think the ones I have used...primarily the Weymouth New Testament, and Young's Literal, and the Rotherham, and the Concordant....are unreliable? Is it because that don't teach eternal torment and stick to the actual meaning of the Greek? Or because you know that they are unreliable in some way? Or is it that you know the ones you use have to be right because they are the ones that are sold the most?

    You are right. I am extremely close-minded when it comes to compromising on the Word of God. I am not close-minded to consider and study new ideas. I have studied the ideas of Universalists and I for one soundly reject them as unBiblical. You and your cronies continue to reposit the exact same arguments over and over again and the result will always be the same.
    Kevin...what makes you think anyone is MY cronie?
    And, I'm sorry, but aren't you, also, reposting the same exact arguments over and over again.

    The result will always be the same? Isn't that just saying that you will continue to consider that only by believing in eternal tormet you show yourself to be "uncompromising", and that you will not consider "new ideas" (although it isn't really new at all, as I've already pointed out) when it comes to this topic?

    Say and by the way, we are still waiting an answer as to why Universalist Greek "scholars" should be trusted over the myriads who have worked on translating the word of God over the past few hundreds years?
    Look at this sentence, Kevin.
    What are you saying, that only those scholars who believe in eternal torment could possibly be right?

    I've quoted from mydiads of commentaries...some of which were not believers in the Salvation of the Human race.

    Why are they wrong and "yours" right?

    Also we are awaiting that Scripture verse that clearly shows the Beast, the False Prophet, Satan, the fallen angels, and those whose names are not in the Book of Life being LET OUT of the Lake of Fire.
    I'm still awaiting the one that says they will be in there forever.

    Better yet how about that verse that shows HOW the sins of Satan and the fallen angels were paid for, thus allowing them to go to Heaven when the Bible says clearly they will not go there, and that Jesus did NOT die for angels!
    Romans 11:36
    Rom. 8:20-21
    Eph. 6:12 and Colossians 1:16-20


    How about the verses that show clearly that someone, ANYONE is given the opportunity to repent AFTER they die?
    Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

    Universalism is a system of belief that rests upon a glass house, and when someone throws the stone of truth it SHATTERS everytime!
    I haven't seen any shattering yet...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nineveh View Post
    The B-I-B-L-E... it doesn't agree with you.
    Still no answer huh? My, that answer to the disciples must really not be as clear as what it states for it to be causing you this much difficulty to address

    You obviously don't understand it because you never experienced it. Just because you have never experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You can't make my witness go away.

    What is your witness red?
    I'm not interested in trying to make your witness 'go away', and I have experienced genuine remorse and repentance, it comes from the heart and is real, no fear or even joy is involved in the act itself....


    ...said the lying hypocrite.
    Pot meet kettle, you're in no position to make judgements on my character after your own little stunt on this thread, here's a hint, you dont take a snippet of someones post and totally misrepresent them - not if you dont want to become guilty of that with which you charge others - namely hypocrisy, you've not even attempted to answer when called on your own error, I wonder why?
    "Either these curtains go or I do...."

    - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

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    Quote Originally Posted by red77 View Post
    Still no answer huh? My, that answer to the disciples must really not be as clear as what it states for it to be causing you this much difficulty to address
    Look, one or two out of context proof text isn't enough for me to convert seeing as the whole Bible speaks directly against you.

    I'm not interested in trying to make your witness 'go away', and I have experienced genuine remorse and repentance, it comes from the heart and is real, no fear or even joy is involved in the act itself....
    So what was your witness, red?

    ...you're in no position to make judgements on my character...
    You are a couple months too late on that one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nineveh View Post
    Look, one or two out of context proof text isn't enough for me to convert seeing as the whole Bible speaks directly against you.
    Right now I'm only asking you to address the one verse...


    So what was your witness, red?
    I repented of my sins, I asked for forgiveness


    You are a couple months too late on that one.
    Hardly, and it doesnt excuse your misrepresentation on this thread if our initial disagreement was 2 years ago....
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    Quote Originally Posted by logos_x View Post
    ...
    Why is the onus of proof on me? Why is it that the onus of proof isn't on you?
    ...
    Because Pastor Kevin uses verses from the Bible to back up what he says. He can point to Matthew 25 and say, "Here Jesus is teaching us that hell is real." He can point to the narrow gates and the wide gates. He can point to verses where the Bible says forever and ever.

    When you point at the same verses you use words like, "Jesus didn't really mean forever." "God didn't really mean that many would go through the wide gate to destriction." You spend all your time trying to change the meaning of verses instead of talking them for what they say.

    The burden of proof is on you because youare the one who insists on changing things. But your burden of proof is low. All we have asked for are verses saying the devil, or anybody, gets out of the lake of fire. We ask for a verse that says you will have a second chance to accept Christ after you die. Thats all. Just a couple o verses that plainly support your assertions as plainly as the verses we have shown you support an eternal lake of fire.

    If you can do that, great! I will renounce eternal torment as a heresy and spend my time vigorusly fighting against it. If you can't, then maybe its time to ask yourself why you can't find those verses.

    With sincerity, I wish you good luck in your Bible search. I pray that the Holy Spirit will be with you and guide your search.

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