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  1. #1
    Just livin' life one day at a time. Poly's Avatar
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    BRXII Battle talk

    Logos_X and PastorKevin have both made their opening statements for BattleRoyale XII.

    Discussion over this battle can be done in this thread.
    "The most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan



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    Journeyman eisenreich's Avatar
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    I've already printed this out to read later, but from skimming it, I think it should be a very interesting debate. I believe both men are fully up to the challenge to discuss this subject. Although neither will change the others' mind, hopefully it will spark some lively conversation in the peanut gallery..

    I wish luck to anyone willing to step into a BR-

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  3. #3
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    At first glance.... both combatants used excellent formatting on their first round posts! Logos post looks a bit long but he has such awesome formatting I am sure it will be easy to read. I will read both posts later and give you my impressions then.
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    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Excellent first round.....

    My thoughts.....

    Logos... way too many quotes (in my opinion). Also logos seemed to pretty much waste most all of his questions asking Pastorkevin questions that logos should already know the answer to i.e., "LogosQ2: Do you believe God really created the universe so that unending misery would be the outcome for the majority of people He raises from the dead?"

    And how to answer a question like.... "LogosQ3: How much confusion has been generated because of translating four different words "Hell"?"

    How could anyone answer that? And how relevant is the answer anyway? Truth is truth no matter who is confused.

    Logos... I love the post formatting, I give you an "A" for formatting, but I have to give you a "C-" for meaty content. Therefore I give you a "B-" in round one.


    Pastorkevin starts strong.....
    Quote Originally Posted by PastorKevin
    What is the Lake of Fire?

    Matthew 10:41,46

    41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
    46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
    Can the battle end there??? Is there really any reason to go on? Seriously? Leave it to Jesus to remove all the ambiguity eh?

    Pastorkevin holds logos feet to the fire (pun intended) with the following question....

    PastorKevin Question #4: Are the beast, the false prophet, and Satan tormented day and night forever and ever? If not please, cite the Scriptural reference that shows that they get out.

    There will simply be no way that Logos can give any type of compelling rebuttal to that question.

    Similarly....
    4. Anyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life:

    Revelation 20:11-15:


    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

    PastorKevin Question #5: Do those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life get out of the Lake of Fire? If so, please cite the Scripture reference that clearly shows this to be true.
    Pastorkevins questions are formulated brilliantly.

    Pastorkevin I give you a "B" for post formatting and an "A+" for content (especially the questions) therefore you get a "A" in round #1.

    Pastorkevin, I really appreciate your "to the point" style. No obfuscation or unnecessary quotes from authors that may not know anything more on the topic than the rest of us!

    Great works brothers! Can't wait for round two!
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    Thumbs down Moderator partiality

    Knight, as chairman of the debate you should remain neutral. Your initial comments are patently partisan. One appreciates that you will most likely hold to the current orthodoxy, that's fine but you should never take sides so blatantly. Please temper your zeal with respect and humility.

    Whether you agree with him or not, Logos_x has laid the foundations of a compelling argument. Pastorkevin has some challenging questions to answer. The debate is far from over.

    BTW, FTR, I believe in eternal punishment too and I admit that I am unlikely to be persuaded otherwise. But then I am not the moderator of this debate.

    NIP

  6. #6
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilinprayer
    Knight, as chairman of the debate you should remain neutral. Your initial comments are patently partisan. One appreciates that you will most likely hold to the current orthodoxy, that's fine but you should never take sides so blatantly. Please temper your zeal with respect and humility.
    Poly is the "chairman" of this debate - try to pay closer attention.

    neilinprayer neg repped m for that as well!

    Dude.... I was thinking of returning the favor but I am not that vengeful.
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Poly is the "chairman" of this debate - try to pay closer attention.
    Ah, fair enough. I thought you were 'master' moderator of all. Since you have delegated moderation to Poly on this occasion then I unreservedly apologise. I would +ve rep you to completely atone for my sins but the forum rules forbid me. So that is your fault .

    NIP

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    Over 1000 post club logos_x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Excellent first round.....

    My thoughts.....

    Logos... way too many quotes (in my opinion). Also logos seemed to pretty much waste most all of his questions asking Pastorkevin questions that logos should already know the answer to i.e., "LogosQ2: Do you believe God really created the universe so that unending misery would be the outcome for the majority of people He raises from the dead?"
    I do know the answer. The question is...does Kevin?

    And how to answer a question like.... "LogosQ3: How much confusion has been generated because of translating four different words "Hell"?"

    How could anyone answer that? And how relevant is the answer anyway? Truth is truth no matter who is confused.
    Precicely the point!

    Logos... I love the post formatting, I give you an "A" for formatting, but I have to give you a "C-" for meaty content. Therefore I give you a "B-" in round one.
    I too realize that the length is excessive...you should see my first draft. But my view is the one that most people are unfamiliar with, and therefore required the most explanation.
    As we get responsive to each other's questions, it's important people have a general gestalt on my position.

    Not an excuse...just an explanation.

    A "B-" ain't bad. But as far as "meaty content"...you just don't like the meat. There's plenty there if you aren't afraid to look.

    And...you anticipate defeat already? We're just gettin' started!

  9. #9
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by logos_x
    A "B-" ain't bad. But as far as "meaty content"...you just don't like the meat. There's plenty there if you aren't afraid to look.
    Good job logos

    I enjoyed your first round post, I did!
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    "LogosQ2: Do you believe God really created the universe so that unending misery would be the outcome for the majority of people He raises from the dead?"
    I believe you really know what he was getting at. He is clear in his logic, while those who believe in eternal torment get stopped at creation. It's real simple, but because we are so patient we will go over it again.

    1. God is all knowing. Knows the end from the beginning.

    2. If you believe there is ET then God knew from the beginning that the majority of people would be burning forever in hell. If He knew it ahead of time then He is to blame.

    3. Saying He gave us "free will" doesn't let him off the hook. Because He still knew that the majority of people with their "free will" were going to burn forever. But He still wanted to make them.... Why?

    4. No one's will is free anyway. We all have a will, but it isn't free. Free is defined as having no outside influences. To say God doesn't affect our will and mold us like a clay pot is unscriptural.

    5. We believe there is no ET. Yet, you are aware we still believe in judgement, living a godly life, and the reason Jesus died was to give us life again, because the penalty was death, not ET. We don't go round and round from the beginning like those who hold to ET have to.

    6. God knew there would be evil. He planned it. He wanted to be our Saviour, our healer, our deliverer, our refuge. He could have been none of those things without evil. But evil and sin will be totally done away with. ET can't admit God planned it, because they have to hold on to hell. Hell keeps them running in circles.

  11. #11
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChasClean
    1. God is all knowing. Knows the end from the beginning.
    God declares the end from the beginning. In other words... He decides when things start and when things will end. We shouldn't stretch biblical statements out of there intended meaning.

    Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ - Isaiah 46:10
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    Great job done by both combatants. Easy to follow along and the formatting on both posts looks great!

    But I especially appreciate PK's use of scripture.
    I have to say that I pretty much had the same thought as Knight after reading PK's first use of scripture, Matthew 10. My first thought was...battle over, obfuscation begins.

  13. #13
    Does Whatever A Light-House Can Lighthouse's Avatar
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    I'm coming off of a cold, otherwise I would read the battle thread in its entirety [mostly]. As it is, my congestion is too distracting to read that much. However, I agree with Knight about Steve's quotes. Way too many. Even without a cold I would not read all of those.


  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Lighthouse For Your Post:

    Tambora (June 3rd, 2016)

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    Over 1000 post club logos_x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse
    I'm coming off of a cold, otherwise I would read the battle thread in its entirety [mostly]. As it is, my congestion is too distracting to read that much. However, I agree with Knight about Steve's quotes. Way too many. Even without a cold I would not read all of those.
    Too many quotes?

    There are as many as I require...no more...no less!


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    Hell - A Revelation of Mercy

    As I have come to know God on a personal level, I have learned a great deal about his Kingdom. One of the things that happens when you become one-in-spirit with him is you begin to become like him, sharing his character. I find that I have become more merciful towards my fellow man.

    I have an accurate conception of the nature of Hell. God has told me that the concept that I believe is real, that my understanding of Hell is true. One day I started thinking of what someone must go through, how they must suffer in the fiery pits of Hell. Then to add on to that that the suffering is eternal, will never stop or end, began to weigh on my soul.
    I believe that most of the souls in hell were not truly wicked, but, instead, dumb or stupid.
    They just made wrong decisions that led them to where they are now.

    So, one day I decided to talk to God about Hell. I said: “Lord, to send someone to Hell to suffer severe pain forever, seems like too much to me.” I got the impression that he kind of shrugged his shoulders. I said: “Lord, do you understand the concept of physical pain? Have you ever experienced it?” He said: “No” I said maybe you should experience it so that you can fully understand what it is like, what a person goes through” He said: “No thanks” I told him that I thought that the punishment of eternal pain in Hell is too severe, even for the wicked.

    I asked him when he had created Hell. He told me that he had created it shortly after the death and resurrection of Jesus. He created it in anger because of how his son was made to suffer. It immediately hit me – I said: “Lord, as parents, we are told never to punish our children when we are angry, and that is exactly what you did” He agreed with me.

    He thought about it briefly and then decided that he regretted ever creating Hell. He has decided to close it down. He has been taking lost souls out of Hell since September of 2005 and counting their punishment as complete, their price as paid. All but the truly wicked will eventually end up in Heaven. The spirits of the truly wicked will likely remain on the Earth for eternity.

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