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Thread: BRXII Battle talk

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    Lightbulb Continued Research.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottune View Post
    Great battle...I think kevin did a good job and with great poise and attitude. Logos made some valid points. I want to be a universalist and have tried for a year now but just not enough scriptural support. I realize ill have to believe the bible is loaded with errors to do it and cant get myself there. What I dont understand is how pastor kevin is able to belive in eternal torment for unbelivers and yet still see god as loving?.....or more than that see him as a good mastermind behind creation? My unanswerable question I have that I would love to battle someone on is....after adam and eve sinned why didnt god close eves womb and save billions from going to endless torment? The only logical answer is universalism or annihilation...... Ive tried to get answers and have yet to find one.....can someone please help me?
    Hi Scottune,

    If you've read any of the posts here you'll see my views written at various time-points, so some of my views may have changed or been modified in various ways, ever evolving - My blog archive on ECT (eternal conscious torment) from a particular thread on the subject is here, and we expound on it more here ('Justification of Eternal Punishment' thread). I see the truth of ultimate destinies lying somewhere between aspects of universalism and 'conditional immortality', but am careful on how we employ those terms,....'terms' having their own 'terms'...and so on. I've also shared how trying to find a so called 'biblical perspective' is limited to the terms provided in the Bible which are not perfect, nor complete IMO,...hence all the various opinions and interpretations, which is why I draw from a university of many different religious traditions, schools of philosophy/metaphysics, Theosophy, Spiritualism, psychical research, etc. to be included in what has been revealed to man so far, in knowledge and experience.

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    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

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    Quote Originally Posted by PKevman View Post
    Good grief no! But that is what Universalist "scholars" do when they make bold statements that words don't mean what most scholars have translated them to mean. My point is why do we disregard virtually ALL of the modern Bible translations just because Universalists dont like what they say?
    "I understand it is hard to grasp for many, but for 1000 years there was no Bible available at all for the common people who had to rely on a corrupt clergy, however even the worst translations contain the universalist verses and show that "for ever" is not always endless. It's only for a few years now where all people have access to all translations and even the source texts in their original languages."

    Blindly relying on a bunch of biased versions cloned by the pro ECT advocates boys club is worth as much as a piece of toilet paper. If atheists shelled out to have printed 100 versions saying "God is dead" would you accept that because the 100 outnumber what other versions say?

    Since the translators all believed in endless punishment, what else would you expect, except that they all would mis-translate certain "hell" passages the same way? Obviously.

    Dozens of English translations don't agree with those cloned by the endless tortures boys club.

    Likewise the early church father Greek scholar universalists would have rejected your cloned excuses for translations. Better to call them paraphrases, interpretations or theological driven opinions of what the originally inspired ancient language texts say.

    Even your cloned theologically driven interpretative "versions" support universalism, which makes them self-contradictory, e.g.:

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context.

    What biased scholars who agreed with the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" (of Inquisitions, Crusades, burning opposers to death with fire & their writings) have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

    "Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

    "After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

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    Quote Originally Posted by PKevman View Post
    Why do Universalists say they believe that God accomplishes ALL of His will but deny that He could preserve His Word to modern times.............
    What makes you think His Word/Scriptures haven't been "preserved"?

    As to God accomplishing His will:

    Premise 1: God desires all be saved. (e.g., 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires (thelo) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.")

    Premise 2: God accomplishes all He desires. (e.g., Isaiah 55:11: "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire (thelo, from the Septuagint), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.")

    Conclusion: All will be saved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PKevman View Post

    Universalist: Modern translations CANNOT be trusted.
    No, go ahead and trust these modern translations of Matthew 25:46:

    Translation of the New Testament from the Original Greek Humbly Attempted by Nathaniel Scarlett Assisted by Men of Piety & Literature with notes, 1798:
    "And These will go away into onian punishment: but the righteous into onian life."

    The New Testament by Abner Kneeland, 1823:
    "And these shall go away into aionian punishment*: but the righteous into aionian life."
    *The word here rendered "punishment," properly signfies correction inflicted for the benefit of the offender. The word "aionian" is explained in the preface : which see.

    The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson, 1884:
    "And these shall go away into onian chastisement, and the just into onian life."

    Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
    "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

    The Holy Bible in Modern English, 1903
    "And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life."

    The New Testament in Modern Speech, 1910:
    "And these shall go away into the Punishment 1 of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life 1 of the Ages."
    1. [Of the Ages] Greek "aeonian."

    A Critical Paraphrase of the New Testament by Vincent T. Roth, 1960
    "And these shall go away into age-continuing punishment, but the righteous into life age-continuing."

    The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, 1976
    "And these shall go away into age-abiding *correction, but the righteous into **age-abiding life."

    The Twentieth Century New Testament, 1900
    "And these last will go away ?into onian punishment, but the righteous ?into onian life."

    The People's New Covenant, 1925
    "And these will depart into age-continuing correction, but the righteous, into age-continuing life."

    Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
    "And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

    The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958
    "And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life."

    The New Testament, a Translation, 1938
    "And these will go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life."

    The New Testament, A New Translation, 1980
    "Then they will begin to serve a new period of suffering; but God's faithful will enter upon their heavenly life."

    Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
    And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

    Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
    "And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

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    Quote Originally Posted by PKevman View Post
    God is a perfect and holy God and the [B]penalty for sin is death (physical and spiritual).
    Rom.1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    Worthy of death, not endless tortures or endless annihilation.

    Rom.8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    Rom.11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath imprisoned them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    36 For out of him, and through him, and into him, is all: to whom be glory into the eons. Amen.

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

    “In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

    Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

    Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

    "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

    For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by PKevman View Post
    God has made an excellent way OUT from the judgment that mankind has earned and deserves. He provided His Son as a sacrifice. What bothers me morally is people who SPIT on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and reject Him, and then make railing accusations against God. That bothers me quite a bit.
    That sounds just like Saul who became the apostle Paul. Jesus prayed on the cross, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by PKevman View Post
    That is one of the reasons WHY I BURN with THE PASSION to reach them and as many as possible with the GOSPEL OF GRACE!
    Do you suppose Love Omnipotent will force anyone who never heard, but would have believed, to go to an endless torture chamber? And those who wouldn't have believed, why would they need to hear your gospel...so when they reject it their punishment in your "hell" will be even worse?

    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by PKevman View Post
    What is a Damnationalist? There is no such thing. Universalism is named that for the system of beliefs that Universalists hold. They call themselves that. (Except some are ashamed to be called that it seems to me).

    I am a Biblicist. I believe in the inspiration and authority of the Word of God.
    Biblicist does not describe the doctrine you hold to in opposition to Universalism, namely that of Endless Damnation. Hence you are a Damnationist. Or an Endless Tormentist, since you believe in the dogma of Endless Torments.

    Some Universalists prefer not to use that term because of how it has been misunderstood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Balder View Post
    I think there is such a gap in moral perspective between those who do not have any problems with the idea of eternal damnation, and in fact would inflict such a sentence themselves if given the opportunity,

    "But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." https://www.firstthings.com/article/...0/saint-origen

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    Red face Universal Love Bytes.......

    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Biblicist does not describe the doctrine you hold to in opposition to Universalism, namely that of Endless Damnation. Hence you are a Damnationist. Or an Endless Tormentist, since you believe in the dogma of Endless Torments.

    Some Universalists prefer not to use that term because of how it has been misunderstood.
    Hi GN,

    PKevman hasnt posted in about 4 years,....and many posters on TOL have left the nest, for whatever reason. I went thru quite some round with him, in the previous pages, and my view on universal salvation remains essentially the same, at least on universal truths, principles and logics regarding God's love, man free will and the supremacy of God's will. Even if I didnt go so far as pure universalism, 'conditional immortality' view is still much better than ECT (eternal conscious torment) which I expound alot on here.

    Im more active on another theology forum, but still respect my roots and history here, although many of the old guarde have left...but still come here to see what subject are brewing, so keep some interest in this community and keeping a 'cosmic portal' open here for those interested in my views, for 'creative dialogue.

    I was moderator for a pure universalism yahoogroups that has gone inactive, and was involved in a 'Christian Universalism' yahoogroups years back. These days I'm more of an 'eclectic theosophist', since it satisfies the most universal fundamental spiritual principles, religous truths, morals, values, meanings and ethics conducive to the pursuit of wisdom and brotherood, so at heart, hold court as a spiritualist, as 'God' or Truth' is universal, no matter what 'soteriology' you entertain, if one at all.

    Anyways,....looking forward

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    Quote Originally Posted by PKevman View Post
    The onus is not on ME to "prove that it means literally for ever and ever in the Greek".
    LOL.

    It's a fact generally acknowledged that "for ever and ever" (e.g. Rev.19:3) is NOT a literal translation!

    It's an idiomatic translation. But more like idiotic, actually. Something that is "for ever" cannot - literally - have "and ever" added to it.

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    Lightbulb Infinite LOVE, consider that.......

    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    LOL.

    It's a fact generally acknowledged that "for ever and ever" (e.g. Rev.19:3) is NOT a literal translation!

    It's an idiomatic translation. But more like idiotic, actually. Something that is "for ever" cannot - literally - have "and ever" added to it.
    Yep, as in other threads on ECT (eternal conscious torment) as I linked in the post earlier,...we deal with the Greek 'AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS' as expounded well here, which refers to an indefinite period of time, an epoch, dispensation, age, etc. I've kept to an ethic of a rational, logical, philosophical exploration of the subject, for if 'God' indeed is INFNITE LOVE, then this divine will must prevail eventually or ultimately in the totality of creation (universally), thru-out all existence, UNLESS in some individual cases some souls may wholly reject and choose for themselves the full consummation of iniquity which is 'death', ....disintegration of individual existence. This is the 'conditional immortality' view, which allows freedom of choice concerning the souls ultimate destiny or choosing of eternal survival (the putting on of immortality). In this view, souls some souls can DIE, and other souls choosing God's will, put on immortality.

    We know the Christian Universalist view is that all souls will be reconciled to God through Christ, within his redeeming and atoning influence, as love and the divine will ultimately prevails for all, where God becomes all in all, thru-out the whole of the new creation (Total Restoration). A more liberal form of pure universalism holds ultimate reunion with God, but it may not necessarily be thru the medium or modality of any one given religious system, teaching, prophet, savior or avatar, etc. - 'God' the Universal One is already the All That IS, so that all comes from The One, and returns The One. - details, terms and definitions may vary within the 'process' of how this takes place. I hold a more liberal pure form of universalism and eclectic religious approach, yet remain open on the 'biblical-framed' destiny of souls within the schools of 'conditional immortality' or 'universal salvation through Christ' for all (which is the frame-work of the original debate here).

    In any case it is good to reflect upon grace and the love that prevails to all who join the will of love and choose the Christ, becoming sons of God via the new birth, born from above of the Spirit, putting on immortality as a partaker of the divine nature. Love could not by its own intrinsic nature or will, enforce or sustain a never-ending torture upon any soul, and condemn/confine that soul to a state of endless suffering with no remedy or opportunity of reform, refining or restoration, to no meaningful or purposeful end. Love by nature allows the effects of sin by law to produce suffering, since any transgression of divine law is 'sin' which produces death (to varying degrees), but grace sustains the soul to learn from his mistakes, to return to God, unless that soul could continue to choose sin/iniquity indefinitely or make a final choice of eternal death (disintegration of individual existence).

    Love being love does not change its nature or will, its constitution, or its laws. Again, we have the challenge of issues like 'free will', if souls can be converted to love, or make a choice of 'no return' to embrace full iniquity which causess that soul to DIE (final/eternal disintegration of personal existence). Im somewhere inbetween 'conditional immoralilty' and 'universal salvation' that I am still open to explore, research and receive revelation upon the subject, but ECT in the traditional hell-fire scenario and belief in endless torment TO NO END, such I find illogical, unjust, irrational and insane.

    A few others of us here have shared the same sentiment, but doesnt hurt to revisit it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    we deal with the Greek 'AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS' as expounded well here, which refers to an indefinite period of time, an epoch, dispensation, age, etc.
    Interesting to see the side by side views of many scholars.

    I hold the view that aion is simply a stand-in for the Semitic word olam, which means.. "beyond seeing." Not necessarily never-ending. Also not necessarily having to do with duration at all, but possibly with quality. Eternal Life (zoe aionios) perhaps has more to do with quality, as in the colloquial phrase, "full of life!"

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