Battle Royale XIV discussion thread

GodsfreeWill

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It exalts, upholds and glorifies:
the word
the Word
the trinity
the blood
the faith of Jesus Christ
our gospel
our pattern
sound doctrine

You don't expect me to take your word for it, do you? If I told you the NKJV did all these things, would you take my word for it?

whereas the (per)versions undermine by changing, omitting and/or hiding many if not all of those things.

Same as above. I could say the same thing about every version other than the NKJV.

Itself (1 Corinthians 2:13 KJV) .

This is not an argument. I could tell you that I put the NKJV up against itself.

If we can't take God at His word believing every word whether or not we understand the words at that very moment, we have no reason to have faith in any of it, let alone the whole armour of God! It's the only offensive weapon in the spiritual battle that is raging (2 Corinthians 10:4 KJV, Ephesians 6:10-20 KJV).

Now, how about that answer?

These are not arguments. I could say that I take God at His every word in the NKJV. Do you see that you've proven nothing and given evidence for nothing?
 

patrick jane

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You don't expect me to take your word for it, do you? If I told you the NKJV did all these things, would you take my word for it?



Same as above. I could say the same thing about every version other than the NKJV.



This is not an argument. I could tell you that I put the NKJV up against itself.



These are not arguments. I could say that I take God at His every word in the NKJV. Do you see that you've proven nothing and given evidence for nothing?

KJO :rapture:
 

George Affleck

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So why not compare the purity of the word with gold rather than silver? Why compare with something that can only get to 99.9% pure when there's a more precious metal that can be made 100% pure? Are you suggesting God's knowledge of the metals He created is somehow lacking?

My information tells me that purity levels of 99.999% are achievable in both silver and gold but not greater. Is this incorrect?
 

brandplucked

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What about the NKJV?

What about the NKJV?

You don't expect me to take your word for it, do you? If I told you the NKJV did all these things, would you take my word for it?



Same as above. I could say the same thing about every version other than the NKJV.

I could say that I take God at His every word in the NKJV. Do you see that you've proven nothing and given evidence for nothing?

Hi Will Duffy. Brother, do you REALLY think the NKJV is the inerrant words of God? Have you read my article about the NKJV?

IF the NKJV is the inerrant words of God, then no inerrant bible exist either before or after it - unless you are coming up with some "new" meanings for the words "inerrant" and "infallible".

Do YOU think 1 John 5:7 is inspired Scripture and belongs in the Bible or do you agree with Bob Enyart's statement that it is not inspired Scripture?(except in his "inspired and inerrant" Hungarian Karoli bible that he can't read but also has the verse in it.)

I give LOTS of examples about the NKJV.

Is the NKJV the inerrant words of God? Not a Chance!

http://brandplucked.webs.com/nkjvsameaskjb.htm
 

heir

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I agree with you here that the KJB is correct and most other versions are wrong.
How do you know the KJB is "correct" in this instance? You don't believe that we have the pure words of the Lord so what do you put it up against to determine with absolute certainty that it is "correct"?

Good question. While I'm thinking about how to answer, why do you assume that the KJB is correct and the rest are wrong? What do you put the KJB up against to determine with absolute certainty that it is correct?
Come on, GodsfreeWill. Where's your answer? It's been over 24 hours since I asked you these simple questions. I answered you. It's your turn. Please answer the questions.
 

patrick jane

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What have you/do you tell your assembly about the King James Bible?Both are correct!

I'm quite confident that God will have no problem sorting it all out no matter what the "as interpreted by millions of Christians now" are of the words found in a King James Bible. Their interpretation does not at all take away from the fact that all scripture is given by inspiration of God. The words of the Lord mean what they say as they say it and to whom they say it.

Have you ever read and studied the King James Bible with an attitude of believing every word is all scripture that will throughly furnish you or have you always sought to attempt to correct it rather than it correcting you?

If you don't believe all scripture is the KJB, where is your "all scripture that "is given by inspiration of God"?


good points/good post heir, They've been asked repeatedly, but they found an error
 

genuineoriginal

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AION as WORLD
I see you love to quote things you don't understand.

I see you have also mistakenly displayed some quotes that tell the truth.
Trench's Synonyms of the New Testament quotes several authors who agree that the word aion properly means "THE WORLD". Trench himself says: "Aion came to mean all that exists in THE WORLD under conditions of time." He then quotes C.L.W. Grimm who defines aion as: "THE WORLD inasmuch as it is active in time."
Your translation is in error because it uses a word that has no relation to time.

The English (you heard of that language, perhaps) word "aeon" is much closer in meaning than the word "world", as is the word "age".

In English, we use the concept of an "age" to describe the state of the world during a period of time, such as the "iron age" or the "bronze age".

So, when the disciples asked about the "end of the age", they were not asking about the planet, they were asking about the time marked by the condition that Israel was without a kingdom.

So, yes, the KJV got that one completely wrong, which leads to false doctrines.
 

GodsfreeWill

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Come on, GodsfreeWill. Where's your answer? It's been over 24 hours since I asked you these simple questions. I answered you. It's your turn. Please answer the questions.

I believe the underlying Greek and Hebrew manuscripts are a higher authority. And so in this instance, the KJV is an accurate translation. In other places it is not. When the KJV does not accurately represent the underlying Greek and Hebrew, what do you do with that?
 

GodsfreeWill

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Heir, one more question. When two KJBs have differing words in a particular verse (which there are hundreds of these examples), how do you determine which one is right?
 

GodsfreeWill

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I take God at His word believing every word of the KJB I hold in my hands and study from. What's it to you?

Why did you remove my question in your reply? Again, when two KJBs have differing words in a particular verse, how do you know which one is correct?
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
Why did you remove my question in your reply? Again, when two KJBs have differing words in a particular verse, how do you know which one is correct?

I answered you.

"I take God at His word believing every word of the KJB I hold in my hands and study from. What's it to you?"
 

GodsfreeWill

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I answered you.

"I take God at His word believing every word of the KJB I hold in my hands and study from. What's it to you?"

You're not answering. Let's try this. If you lose the KJB you hold in your hand and buy a new one from the bookstore that has different words than your previous KJB, how do you know which one was correct?
 

Shasta

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[B said:
brandplucked[/B];4516201]Some days ago I brought up Revelation 19:8, which in the KJV reads this way:

And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints (Revelation 19:8 KJV).

Modern versions tend to translate this verse something like this:

it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds (ta dikaiomata)of the saints. (Revelation 19:8 ESV)

I pointed out then that the Greek the word translated “righteousness” is plural and has an article neither of which was recognized in the KJV. One of the arguments you make on your page is that sometimes languages use plural nouns to express singular concepts. While true but we cannot infer from this generality or from the few examples you provided that this is the case for ta dikaiomata unless there is a precedent for it. It is telling that in the other instances where the plural form of dikoaioma (ta dikaiomata) is used it the reference is to something plural.

Not only do dikaiosune and ta dikaioma differ as to number, they have different definitions.

Strong’s concordance gives three definitions for dikaióma: (which I have highlighted in yellow)
1. an ordinance,
a. Thayer’s Lexicon: that which has been deemed
right so as to have the force of law. NT Scriptures where ta dikaimomata means “(legally) prescribed right actions” are the following: Luke 1:6, Romans 1:32, Romans 2:26, Romans 2:26, Romans 8:4, Hebrews 7:16, Hebrews 9:1, Hebrews 9:10. Note that all these scriptures refer to a person’s actions.

2. a sentence of acquittal or condemnation,
a. Thayer’s Lexicon: a judicial decision, sentence; of God — either the favorable judgment by which he acquits men and declares them acceptable to him Romans 5:16; or unfavorable: sentence of condemnation, Revelation 15:4.

3. a righteous deed
a. Strong’s Concordance elaborates on this.
1345 /dikaíōma ("an act which is right according to the Lord") is "an act of righteousness, a concrete expression of righteousness"…which correlates to its profound (eternal) effect.

For the believer, this particularly relates to their unique glorification awarded at Christ's return (cf. Rev 19:8).

Strong directly connects“glorification”to the adornment of the Bride at Christ’s return not to the imputed righteousness (“justification”) that people experience in the present age when they put their faith in Christ.

b. Thayer’s Lexicon: a righteous act or deed (Revelation 19:8) the righteous act of one (Christ) in his giving himself up to death, opposed to the first sin of Adam, (Romans 5:18)
Thayer calls ta dikaiomata not “righteousness,”(or Godly character in general) but a “righteous act or deed.”

Your difficulty with this translation is twofold. First and foremost it does not comport with the KJV which you dogmatically insist is infallible (even when it does not agree with the language of the Textus Receptus). Second, you seem to think that anything about “good deeds” necessarily implies “salvation by works.” Hence, when you read about “the righteous deeds of the saints" you assume the modern translators are in collusion with the Bishop of Rome to promote salvation by works.

One thing I have noticed in reading your posts is how you delight in pointing out occasions where the Jehovah Witness Bible is in agreement with modern translations. (Apparently they too are part of the conspiracy). I notice, however, that in defending the KJB you neglect to include in your list of credits the LDS Church’s endorsement even though it seems to me that their method of divining truth sources through personal revelation is identical to yours.

Vine says that dikaiosune (righteousness)“refers to "the character or quality of being right or just" while dikaioma refers to is the “concrete expression of (such) "righteousness" Vine summarizes the difference between the two terms by saying that: “dikaioma does not signify character, as does dikaiosune…”
http://gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?search=Righteousness&dict=vine
http://gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?search=Righteousness&dict=vine#2

With these definitions in mind it is easy to see why righteousness (dikaiosune) is singular. Righteousness, speaks of God’s character which is THE template or standard by which all actions, motives and thoughts are measured. Although there is only one “template” many kinds of action can be judged as conforming to that ONE standard. Actions that have their origin in God are congruent to His character of righteousness (dikaiosune) and are deemed “righteous actions” (dikaiomata).

Because I began by looking at the simple definitions of words and straight-forward grammar I was told I had a mere “school boy’s” command of Greek. Well, I have never made any statement about the extent of my training which is why I made it a point to cite sources. If anyone doubts what I say I invite them to check these sources. However, if I have misconstrued the meaning of ta dikaiomata then so has A. T. Robertson who, I think, had somewhat more than a schoolboy’s knowledge of Greek. He also understood “ta dikaiomata” to be the“righteous acts of the saints” Robertson was by no means a secret agent for the Papacy either. He was a conservative Baptist and is recognized as being one of the foremost scholars of the Koine Greek language of his day.

Rather than shop for commentators who happen to agree with me I prefer to consult those who specialize in linguists. In so doing, I have found that, in addition to Strong, Thayer, Robertson and Vine The Expositor’s Greek Testament (http://biblehub.com/commentaries/egt/revelation/19.htm)and the Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges (http://biblehub.com/commentaries/cambridge/revelation/19.htm)
also translate ta dikaiomata as “the righteous acts of the saints:”

Since you like to amass Bible Translations that agree with the KJB I will bring these Bibles to attest to the translation of the verse as I have presented it: the NIV, NLT, ESV, BSB, BLB, NASB, HCSB, ISV, NET Bible, KJ 2000 Bible, AKJV, ERV, Young’s Literal Translation, as well as the Greek Interlinear. (http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/19-8.htm).

It is easy to see where you got the idea that the Bride’s white robe (received in the afterlife) is the same white robe of righteousness which represents the believers salvation experience in this life (Isaiah 61:10) After all, that is the impression left by the King James Translation itself.

To see why this is a misrepresentation of the event we first have to imagine the scene as it unfolds in Revelation 19:7-8. The Bride is about to wed the Bridegroom. Amid much fanfare and worship it is announced that “the Bride has made herself ready!”(for eternal union with Christ). The verb "has made herself ready" is in the Greek aorist tense which means that the act of preparation was begun and completed in the past (i.e., at some time prior to this announcement). Immediately after this, Revelation says that a clean robe was given to her.

Does this mean that until that moment the Bride was NOT arrayed in a white robe of righteousness? Does it mean that when the proclamation “the Bride has made herself ready!”was made, the Bride had been standing before the vast multitudes disrobed and NAKED? Well, if she had no robe on then she would have to be! In the Bible, nakedness is a sign of unfaithfulness (Isaiah 47:3). In Revelation 3:17-19 Jesus warns the unfaithful compromising Laodecians to repent from the “shame of their nakedness.” If the Bride had already made herself ready then she was most certainly NOT naked. Neither can it be said that she was wearing a filthy robe of self-righteous as was Joshua the High Priest (Zechariah 3:1-4). Nothing is said here of filthy rags being stripped off and of her being re-dressed.

Another reason for the misconception that the robe given to her is the same white robe of righteousness that believers receive when they are saved is the KJV’s inadequate description of the Bridal robe. The KJV says only that it is of“fine linen, clean and white.” The Greek word for “white”is leukos (e.g., Matthew 5:36: you are not able to make one hair white or black) whereas in Revelation 19:8 the word is“lampros”which does not mean white but rather“bright, shining, magnificent, splendid, brilliant, gorgeous.” (http://biblehub.com/greek/2986.htm).

This is not just a white robe like those worn by the Levites, the priests and the angels, or even the pure white robe of righteousness believers wear. This robe is a magnificent bridal gown. The Bride of Christ will receive it and adorn herself with it when she stands before the Bridegroom in the Day He returns (http://biblehub.com/text/revelation/19-8.htm). Translations that capture the meaning of lampros as ‘bright” and “splendid” include the following: NIV, ESV, BSB, BLB, NASB, HCSB, ISV, NET Bible, and God’s Word translation.

We need not be afraid of using the literal translation “righteous acts” because the Bride is not saved by those“acts.”Rather, those “acts” represent all the things that God has done in and through her. In modern terms these acts comprise her “testimony” All righteous acts are not “filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6) only the works of the flesh. To say that God does not honor or is not honored by the righteous things he does through His people is an insult to the Holy Spirit who motivates and empowers those actions.

Also there will be no more pride in exhibiting what God has done through His Church than there was for Paul and Barnabas when they shared with the Church all that God had done through them among the Gentiles. Just as it was with them so the exhibition of the Bride’s works will bring praise to God. Besides, the Wedding is the appropriate time and place for the Bridegroom to show off His Bride.

It also has to be mentioned that the Bride is not a single individual. She represents the corporate Body of Christ. Christ does not have a harem. He has one Bride and the bridal robe represents what has been done by all the Body of Christ throughout history. That she has some degree of participation in her adornment is suggested in the text.

“It was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”- for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints (Revelation 19:8 ESV)

The King James translation completely misses the idea of her “clothing herself”by translating the verse as:

And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints (Revelation 19:8 KJV)

The word (should) “be arrayed, is the Greek word peribaletai which literally means “to throw (a robe) around (oneself).” The KJB incorrectly translates it into the PASSIVE voice“ she should BE arrayed” which conveys the idea that she was dressed by someone ELSE. However, as all of us schoolboys of the Greek language know, the word is in the MIDDLE voice which is used when a person performs an action on himself. The translation that best captures this is “she should clothe herself”For an accurate translation of this word put the KJB down for a moment and read the ESV, NASB, or HCSB.

By contrast, the High Priest Joshua had nothing to do with his white robe, except to allow himself to be stripped and then clothed in it (Zechariah 3:3-4). In Revelation 19:8 the Bride has something to do with both with weaving her robe as well as in dressing herself in it. She does not presumptuously dress herself in this gown. The Bible says “it was given (or granted) her”by God. It is by God’s gracious permission that she bears her testimony before the world just as it was by God’s grace that all the righteous actions that comprise her testimony were accomplished.

A.T. Robertson had this to say about the bride’s garment which represents God’s grace working in her life as well as her own cooperation with Him.

The righteous acts of the saints (ta dikaiomata ton hagion). This is the explanation (gar = for) of the bridal dress and explains why there is work for the Bride as well as for Christ (Philippians 2:12). See Revelation 15:4 for (also Romans 5:18 ).

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/revelation/revelation-19-8.html
 
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