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Thread: One on One: Tip toe through the TULIPs with docrob57 and Knight.

  1. #76
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    Agreed.
    I just don't see how you can agree with that statement when you have made statements like....
    I don't understand the question. God's will is God's will, it is the governing force of existence, it isn't something we "adhere to."

    If you are asking whether we should strive to grow in obedience, sure. However, unless that "striving" is empowered and directed and even inhabited by the Holy Spirit, it will amount to nothing.
    Doc, you want to claim that God directs and orchestrates everything yet you also want to hold onto the idea that man has some willpower of his own. One of those concepts must be wrong, they cannot co-exist.
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  2. #77
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Knights Question #3 In Jonah 3 God says "and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them" yet you say.... "And no, Jonah is not an example of God repenting". Why should we be compelled to believe you know God better than Himself?

    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    This is far afield of what we are discussing here, and I have discussed all this with you and others before. Maybe later, but I'm not dealing with this now.
    Noted.

    For those keeping score....

    The Bible: "...and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them"

    Docrob57: "And no, Jonah is not an example of God repenting"
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  3. #78
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    Q2. Have we finished with the "T?"
    Q2a. If so, where are we?
    You have never even made a case for the "T"! You claimed you did here , but all you really did was state what you think the "T" means which is really no news at all.

    Doc, if you want to move to the "U" feel free.

    I am very flexible at this point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Yet you follow a doctrine made popular in the 1600's???

    I say.... who cares about tradition! It's often wrong, and clearly there are traditions for every doctrine on earth! Therefore God's word trump any and all tradition.

    Knight's question #4. Should God's word trump any and all tradition when it comes to understanding God's attributes and what He expects from His creation?
    I'm not sure when it was "made popular," but you yourself trace it back to at least Augustine.

    I agree, we always need to evaluate tradition in light of Scripture, but to claim that we are not influenced by tradition is a little naive.

    Baptists make that claim, and I recently read a quote by a Baptist theologian who said (jokingly) "we have no history of looking to tradition in our church."
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


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  5. #80
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    Agreed again!! Where we disagree is the capacity of man to say "I accept" on his own.
    What does the following mean to you.....

    And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. - Revelation 22:17

    You can answer if you want, although to be honest the question is somewhat rhetorical.
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    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    I agree, we always need to evaluate tradition in light of Scripture, but to claim that we are not influenced by tradition is a little naive.
    Uh... I never said that. Doc, I am pretty good at putting words in my own mouth, I don't need your help.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    I just don't see how you can agree with that statement when you have made statements like....Doc, you want to claim that God directs and orchestrates everything yet you also want to hold onto the idea that man has some willpower of his own. One of those concepts must be wrong, they cannot co-exist.
    They can and do co-exist. Calvinists do not deny the existence of free will, however, they do define it differently than you do. From my perspective, men are free to do whatever evil they choose. They are by nature (not just predisposition or propensity) evil and they can do no other.

    God is sovereign, and knows the free will choices that men will make, and everything else for that matter. That being the case, He is able to order things so that they occur in accordance with His will, by using the free will choices of men.

    I have to work some but I will return later.
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    What does the following mean to you.....

    And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. - Revelation 22:17

    You can answer if you want, although to be honest the question is somewhat rhetorical.
    The answer is that God implants the thrist.
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    You have never even made a case for the "T"! You claimed you did here , but all you really did was state what you think the "T" means which is really no news at all.

    Doc, if you want to move to the "U" feel free.

    I am very flexible at this point.
    Okay, I think I actually understand what you are saying here!! Well there is progress. When I come back later, I will build a scriptural argument for Total Inability (or Depravity, whichever you like)

    I guess the reason I didn't do that before, is that I am sure you are familiar with it, however, I will do it for all the viewers at home.

    Finally, don't take offense that I said you were probably going to hell, some of my best friends are headed there without doubt!!
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

  10. #85
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    They can and do co-exist. Calvinists do not deny the existence of free will, however, they do define it differently than you do. From my perspective, men are free to do whatever evil they choose. They are by nature (not just predisposition or propensity) evil and they can do no other.
    Knight's question #6 Has God predestined EVERY event, EVERY thought, EVERY - everything - in advance for all of history? YES or NO?

    God is sovereign, and knows the free will choices that men will make, and everything else for that matter. That being the case, He is able to order things so that they occur in accordance with His will, by using the free will choices of men.
    Doc, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but you are not a Calvinist. You are more of an Arminian. Were you aware of this?
    Last edited by Knight; November 22nd, 2006 at 02:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    The answer is that God implants the thrist.
    I guess you have a different definition of "freely".
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    Finally, don't take offense that I said you were probably going to hell, some of my best friends are headed there without doubt!!
    Doc, let the record state I would never make that same claim of you.

    You are offensive, divisive and unbrotherly. I think you should apologize and repent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Doc, let the record state I would never make that same claim of you.

    You are offensive, divisive and unbrotherly. I think you should apologize and repent.
    Sorry that you feel that way, but in this case I will have to decline.
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Knight's question #6 Has God predestined EVERY event, EVERY thought, EVERY - everything - in advance for all of history? YES or NO?

    Doc, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but you are not a Calvinist. You are more of an Arminian. Were you aware of that?
    Or perhaps, you really don't understand Calvinism that well. How would you explain this from the Westminster Confession? Are the authors of it Arminians too?

    I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

  15. #90
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    Sorry that you feel that way, but in this case I will have to decline.
    Again.... I believe in my heart and have confessed with my mouth that the Lord Jesus died for my sin and that He rose on the third day.
    Knight's question #7 What gives you the right to assert that I am not saved? What is you rational (or defense) for such an assertion?
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