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Thread: One on One: Tip toe through the TULIPs with docrob57 and Knight.

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    Okay, I would tell you to go to hell, but I am afraid that is likely the direction you are headed, so I don't want to make light of it.
    Interesting, so now I am going to hell. On what basis do you make that claim?

    I would never make that claim of you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    Perhaps it is too late for those of you who buy into the open theist heresy, but I hope not.
    Doc, do you think Open Theists should adhere more to God's will?
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  3. #63
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    And Doc vanishes into thin air......
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    And Doc vanishes into thin air......
    I did vanish and did not want to return. My feelings were similar to those of Jonah, however, not wanting to be swallowed by a great fish, especially with it being the holidays and all. I have returned. And no, Jonah is not an example of God repenting . . . but don't get me started on that.

    I did not say that you were going to hell, that is not my call to make, I said that I feared that you (and, by implication the other OVers) were because your deviation from legitimate Christian thought is much greater than I would ever have imagined.

    In any event, if you would like to continue this "discussion" I will, but there will have to be some rules. I know the "one on one" does not have the formality of the Battle Royale, but the way this has proceded is just silly. So, if you wish to proceed, what I insist on is that we number our questions or statements to the other to which we want a response, and the answers be numbered so that I can at least see that you intended the response to address what I had asked, even if I do not recognize it as such.

    You left a couple of more questions which I will now address, and then let me know if you want to move forward.
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Doc, do you think Open Theists should adhere more to God's will?
    I don't understand the question. God's will is God's will, it is the governing force of existence, it isn't something we "adhere to."

    If you are asking whether we should strive to grow in obedience, sure. However, unless that "striving" is empowered and directed and even inhabited by the Holy Spirit, it will amount to nothing.

    John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

  6. #66
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    I don't understand the question. God's will is God's will, it is the governing force of existence, it isn't something we "adhere to."

    If you are asking whether we should strive to grow in obedience, sure. However, unless that "striving" is empowered and directed and even inhabited by the Holy Spirit, it will amount to nothing.
    Wow... how do you respond to something like that?

    Doc, if all we can do is adhere to God's will then we cannot "strive" to do anything!

    Doc, wouldn't you agree that based on your theology man can ONLY be obedient to God's will? Wouldn't you agree that there is no such thing as disobedience?
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    Will you proceed as I asked in post 64?
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

  8. #68
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    I did vanish and did not want to return. My feelings were similar to those of Jonah, however, not wanting to be swallowed by a great fish, especially with it being the holidays and all. I have returned. And no, Jonah is not an example of God repenting . . . but don't get me started on that.
    Hmmm... OK. I will let the reader be the judge....

    Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

    You continue...
    I did not say that you were going to hell, that is not my call to make, I said that I feared that you (and, by implication the other OVers) were because your deviation from legitimate Christian thought is much greater than I would ever have imagined.
    Doc, what makes your theology "legitimate Christian thought"?

    You continue....
    In any event, if you would like to continue this "discussion" I will, but there will have to be some rules. I know the "one on one" does not have the formality of the Battle Royale, but the way this has proceded is just silly. So, if you wish to proceed, what I insist on is that we number our questions or statements to the other to which we want a response, and the answers be numbered so that I can at least see that you intended the response to address what I had asked, even if I do not recognize it as such.

    You left a couple of more questions which I will now address, and then let me know if you want to move forward.
    Sounds good!

    Knights Question #1. Can man disobey God's will?

    Knights Question #2. Can you define what you believe to be "legitimate Christian thought"?

    Knights Question #3. In Jonah 3 God says "and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them" yet you say.... "And no, Jonah is not an example of God repenting". Why should we be compelled to believe you know God better than Himself?
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    Knights Question #1. Can man disobey God's will?

    Man can disobey God, of course, but God's will will be done. I am struggling with the idea of "obeying God's will."

    For example Proverbs 16:9
    The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
    Knights Question #2. Can you define what you believe to be "legitimate Christian thought"?
    I believe that legitimate Christian thought is foremost consistency with Biblical teaching, but I also think that we should be wary of "great new interpretations" of Scripture that emerge out of nowhere at a time distant from the times of the apostles. So I do believe that we need to take seriously the early Church teachings and things of that nature.

    So, more directly, I would say that legitimate Christian thought is Biblical teaching interpreted in the context of a long, well established and logical theological tradition.

    Knights Question #3. In Jonah 3 God says "and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them" yet you say.... "And no, Jonah is not an example of God repenting". Why should we be compelled to believe you know God better than Himself?
    This is far afield of what we are discussing here, and I have discussed all this with you and others before. Maybe later, but I'm not dealing with this now.
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

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    A quick interjection - I was just listening to a sermon in which the pastor made the point that we are saved by faith, not by the belief that we are saved by faith.

    Q. Would you agree with this?
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    Man can disobey God, of course, but God's will will be done. I am struggling with the idea of "obeying God's will."

    For example Proverbs 16:9
    Proverbs 16:9
    A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

    Let's get context, after all... context is king.

    Prov. 16:9
    A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

    A man’s heart plans his way,
    say what???

    A man’s heart plans his way,
    can I get an AMEN???

    A man’s heart plans his way,

    Us men have our own heart - and our own will.... but if we rely of God He will direct our steps. If man had no will why would God have said... "A man’s heart plans his way,?

    Lets drive home the point.....

    Proverbs 16:1The preparations of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD. 2 All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the spirits. 3 Commit your works to the LORD, And your thoughts will be established. 4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. 5 Everyone proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD; Though they join forces, none will go unpunished. 6 In mercy and truth Atonement is provided for iniquity; And by the fear of the LORD one departs from evil. 7 When a man’s ways please the LORD, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him. 8 Better is a little with righteousness, Than vast revenues without justice. 9 A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

    Again the entire chapter oozes man's ability to have his own intentions and his owns ways that might not be in line with God's will.

    Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

    "lean not on your own understanding;" Our own understanding?????? How can we have our "own understanding" if we have no will of our own? And why does God go to the trouble of telling us to acknowledge Him so that He can direct our paths if we can't help but have Him direct our paths???

    Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

    QUESTION: When does He direct our paths again???????
    ANSWER: When we lean not on our own understandings and acknowledge Him in all of our ways.

    The entire meaning of all these verses above is meaningless IF man has no ability to have his own understandings or willpower.
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    A quick interjection - I was just listening to a sermon in which the pastor made the point that we are saved by faith, not by the belief that we are saved by faith.

    Q. Would you agree with this?
    We are saved by Christ's blood, by His faithfulness on the cross. That's what saves us. It is up to us to say "I accept".

    After all....

    Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” :12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

    In other words... the good news is that WHOEVER confesses with his mouth and believes in his heart will be saved. God's gift is available to all men but not all men choose to accept the gift.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    [b]
    The entire meaning of all these verses above is meaningless IF man has no ability to have his own understandings or willpower.
    Agreed.
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    So, more directly, I would say that legitimate Christian thought is Biblical teaching interpreted in the context of a long, well established and logical theological tradition.
    Yet you follow a doctrine made popular in the 1600's???

    I say.... who cares about tradition! It's often wrong, and clearly there are traditions for every doctrine on earth! Therefore God's word trump any and all tradition.

    Knight's question #4. Should God's word trump any and all tradition when it comes to understanding God's attributes and what He expects from His creation?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    We are saved by Christ's blood, by His faithfulness on the cross. That's what saves us. It is up to us to say "I accept".

    After all....

    Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” :12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

    In other words... the good news is that WHOEVER confesses with his mouth and believes in his heart will be saved. God's gift is available to all men but not all men choose to accept the gift.
    Agreed again!! Where we disagree is the capacity of man to say "I accept" on his own.

    Now, my questions here are procedural, but I would like there to be some rhyme and reason to the discussion.

    Q2. Have we finished with the "T?"
    Q2a. If so, where are we?
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

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