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Thread: One on One: Tip toe through the TULIPs with docrob57 and Knight.

  1. #16
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    With all due respect your theology isn't even close to orthodox Christian doctrine, so it is a little difficult to try to understand the point you are trying to make. It would seem, then, that since you reject the doctrine of original sin, and maintain, apparently, that we are born without sin, then it is at least possible to lead a sinless life, is that correct?
    Again... because of the cross we are born justified from Adam's sin (Rom 5). Yet we do have the flesh therefore we have the propensity to sin and when we reach the age where we are old enough to know good and evil we become responsible for our own sin that every man is guilty of sooner or later.

    Paul makes it clear he was alive without the law.....

    Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

    And without the law we know that...
    Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    Clearly then Paul was not under the law nor guilty of any sin prior to the age he became accountable for his own sin. This is all pretty standard stuff and has little to do with Openness theology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Again... because of the cross we are born justified from Adam's sin (Rom 5). Yet we do have the flesh therefore we have the propensity to sin and when we reach the age where we are old enough to know good and evil we become responsible for our own sin that every man is guilty of sooner or later.

    Paul makes it clear he was alive without the law.....

    Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

    And without the law we know that...
    Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    Clearly then Paul was not under the law nor guilty of any sin prior to the age he became accountable for his own sin. This is all pretty standard stuff and has little to do with Openness theology.
    It does have a lot to do with the doctrine of total depravity, however, and that is what we are discussing. So, if I understand what you are saying, we are born with a propensity to sin and, though we may sin in between birth and an age of accountability, we are not responsible for it during that period of time. From your previous posts, it appears that this was not the case prior to the crucifixion, at which time we were held accountable for Adam's sin, and did, in fact, inherit a sinful nature.

    This raises what appear to be some interesting questions. Can a person overcome this propensity to sin in the post-crucifixion era? How pervasive is this tendency? Can a person confine himself to sin that does not "lead to death?"

    What I am trying to understand here is the extent to which your perspectives on human nature are compatible with total depravity, if that helps.
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

  3. #18
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    What I am trying to understand here is the extent to which your perspectives on human nature are compatible with total depravity, if that helps.
    My "perspectives" are not compatible with total depravity.

    Nobody but Adam has ever been sent to hell for the sin of Adam.

    Again this isn't breaking news.... God is pretty clear...

    Jeremiah 31:29 “In those days they shall say no more: ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ 30 “But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.

    Ancient Calvinists used to say that sons died for the sins of their fathers and it drove God crazy! They would use the phrase.... ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ God implored that they not use that phrase anymore.

    Ezekiel 18:1 The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying: ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge’? 3 “As I live,” says the Lord GOD, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel. 4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.


    God's word screams to us.... As I live... you shall no longer use this proverb (‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge’). The soul who sins shall die.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    My "perspectives" are not compatible with total depravity.

    Nobody but Adam has ever been sent to hell for the sin of Adam.

    Again this isn't breaking news.... God is pretty clear...

    Jeremiah 31:29 “In those days they shall say no more: ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ 30 “But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.

    Ancient Calvinists used to say that sons died for the sins of their fathers and it drove God crazy! They would use the phrase.... ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ God implored that they not use that phrase anymore.

    Ezekiel 18:1 The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying: ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge’? 3 “As I live,” says the Lord GOD, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel. 4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.


    God's word screams to us.... As I live... you shall no longer use this proverb (‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge’). The soul who sins shall die.
    Okay. so then could you please answer the specific questions that I posed.
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    Okay. so then could you please answer the specific questions that I posed.
    Doc... did you read my last post?

    God is clear... no son dies for the sins of their father, it's the soul that sins that dies. Do you deny that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Doc... did you read my last post?

    God is clear... no son dies for the sins of their father, it's the soul that sins that dies. Do you deny that?
    No, but that wasn't the question (or the questions) that I asked. And, I might add, that what you posted does not have anything to do either with the doctrine of original sin or total depravity.

    Original sin states that man inherited the sin nature from Adam. It does not absolve him from his own sinful acts or place responsibility on him for Adam's sinful acts. Total depravity, again, states that due to original sin, man cannot seek God.

    But for now, please answer the questions I posted 2 or 3 posts ago.
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

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    By the way, you get extra points if you can guess the daily Calvinist.
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    No
    OK good you agree that no man dies for Adam's sin.

    Yet you promote the idea that all men are guilty of Adam's sin.

    What gives?
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    Can a person overcome this propensity to sin in the post-crucifixion era? How pervasive is this tendency? Can a person confine himself to sin that does not "lead to death?"
    All men sin. And once we reach the age of accountability we are held accountable for that sin and therefore all men need a Savior.

    Only one Man didn't sin.... and He IS the Savior.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    OK good you agree that no man dies for Adam's sin.

    Yet you promote the idea that all men are guilty of Adam's sin.

    What gives?

    I am beginning to feel like Adlai Stevenson at the U.N. I am prepared to wait for you answer to my questions until hell freezes over.

    I will repeat them in case you forgot.

    Can a person overcome this propensity to sin in the post-crucifixion era? How pervasive is this tendency (the propensity to sin)? Can a person confine himself to sin that does not "lead to death?"
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    I am beginning to feel like Adlai Stevenson at the U.N. I am prepared to wait for you answer to my questions until hell freezes over.

    I will repeat them in case you forgot.

    Can a person overcome this propensity to sin in the post-crucifixion era? How pervasive is this tendency (the propensity to sin)? Can a person confine himself to sin that does not "lead to death?"
    Sounds good, from now on I will plan on answering your questions at least three times. Feel free to answer my questions just once... I am cool with that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Sounds good, from now on I will plan on answering your questions at least three times. Feel free to answer my questions just once... I am cool with that.
    You have never come close to answering these questions. Simply claiming that you have is not the same thing. It begins to look like you are afraid of answering, however.

    Let me help you here. You have said that we are no longer subject to the inheritance of a sin nature through Adam, but that we retain a propensity to sin. You have presented Biblical evidence that we are not punished for Adam's sinful behaviors. That was never an issue, but that's okay.

    Try reading the questions and answering them.
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

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    Quote Originally Posted by docrob57
    You have never come close to answering these questions. Simply claiming that you have is not the same thing. It begins to look like you are afraid of answering, however.

    Let me help you here. You have said that we are no longer subject to the inheritance of a sin nature through Adam, but that we retain a propensity to sin. You have presented Biblical evidence that we are not punished for Adam's sinful behaviors. That was never an issue, but that's okay.

    Try reading the questions and answering them.
    Apparently you didn't read post #25.

    Docrob, I am not going to play games with you. Please stop saying I am not answering your questions. I have answered your question(s) three times, three different ways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Apparently you didn't read post #25.

    Docrob, I am not going to play games with you. Please stop saying I am not answering your questions. I have answered your question(s) three times, three different ways.
    I am not playing games with you. Either you don't understand the questions or don't want to answer them. Let me make it a little more basic for you.

    You said that all men sin. You also said that post-crucifixion, we are no longer subject to the sin nature inherited by Adam. If this is true, why do all men still sin? And, again, can this "propensity to sin" be avoided? Is it possible, at least?
    God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

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