the history of Islam

ok doser · Nov 5, 2015

Greg Jennings said:
It was admitted to once (at least I think only once). Do you honestly think that these people who clearly had no qualms about killing natives wouldn't have done this repeatedly, and covered their backs when the tribes died by saying, "Oops. Guess they got sick. Don't know how it happened. But now we have more land!"?

given the dynamic that existed at the time, i can't imagine why they would hide it from the historical record - indigenous people were largely seen as subhuman, to be removed - cortez and columbus, for example, had no compunction about documenting their treatment of natives

But tens of millions were still killed intentionally.

cite?

by the end of the 20th century the scholarly consensus had shifted to about 50 million

that's a far cry from your claim that hundreds of millions were exterminated

chrysostom · Nov 5, 2015

ok doser said:
given the dynamic that existed at the time, i can't imagine why they would hide it from the historical record - indigenous people were largely seen as subhuman, to be removed - cortez and columbus, for example, had no compunction about documenting their treatment of natives

cite?

that's a far cry from your claim that hundreds of millions were exterminated

maybe you can get him down to tens of hundreds

that's still a lot

Greg Jennings · Nov 5, 2015

Nick M said:
View attachment 20672

I'm not saying Islam isn't violent (especially in modern times). I just noticed how chrys listed a whole bunch of Muslim atrocities while conveniently ignoring equally atrocious Christian activities occurring at the same point in history

Greg Jennings · Nov 5, 2015

ok doser said:
given the dynamic that existed at the time, i can't imagine why they would hide it from the historical record - indigenous people were largely seen as subhuman, to be removed - cortez and columbus, for example, had no compunction about documenting their treatment of natives

That's a fair argument, but nobody wants to go down in history as someone who slaughtered large numbers of innocent people. And especially not in such a cowardly way as smallpox blankets.

ok doser said:
cite?

There aren't reliable statistics for exactly how many natives were killed and where they were killed because they didn't keep written records of that. But we can extrapolate how many there were based on the structures that we find, and we know for a fact that the Spanish conquistadors had only one goal: to take the enormous amounts of silver and gold from the natives. To do that, you had to kill them.

ok doser said:
that's a far cry from your claim that hundreds of millions were exterminated

You left off the back end of the quote.

Huckleberry · Nov 5, 2015

rexlunae said:
You forgot the invention of Algebra.

You mean the word "algebra", of course.

"In Renaissance Europe, he was considered the original inventor of algebra, although it is now known that his work is based on older Indian or Greek sources."
(source: Wikipedia: Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī)

bybee · Nov 5, 2015

Greg Jennings said:
I'm not saying Islam isn't violent (especially in modern times). I just noticed how chrys listed a whole bunch of Muslim atrocities while conveniently ignoring equally atrocious Christian activities occurring at the same point in history

Today! What is happening today! Yesterday is gone. We must deal with what is happening today.

Greg Jennings · Nov 5, 2015

bybee said:
Today! What is happening today! Yesterday is gone. We must deal with what is happening today.

Bybee, my response originally was to chrysostom, who listed Muslim atrocities committed throughout history. He did not limit it to today. Yes, today Islam is the most violent. But that's not what he was claiming. He was saying that throughout history it's always been the most violent, and I'm simply pointing out that's not the case

bybee · Nov 6, 2015

Greg Jennings said:
Bybee, my response originally was to chrysostom, who listed Muslim atrocities committed throughout history. He did not limit it to today. Yes, today Islam is the most violent. But that's not what he was claiming. He was saying that throughout history it's always been the most violent, and I'm simply pointing out that's not the case

Okay! I stand corrected.

Nick M · Nov 6, 2015

Greg Jennings said:
I just noticed how chrys listed a whole bunch of Muslim atrocities while conveniently ignoring equally atrocious Christian activities occurring at the same point in history

Like what? Muslims do in a year what the Inquisition did in all 350 years combined.

Greg Jennings · Nov 6, 2015

Nick M said:
Like what? Muslims do in a year what the Inquisition did in all 350 years combined.

In terms of death toll that is undoubtedly true. But the Inquisition is just a small piece of the overall picture of Christianity's historical violence.

Atrocities committed by both Muslims and Christians during the Crusades are well documented. Christian crusaders slaughtered a couple thousand Jews while waiting to fight the Muslims because they were bored. I'm not joking. Another good example would be the violence between Catholics and Anglicans in Great Britain as a result of Henry VIII's reign

chrysostom · Nov 6, 2015

the crusades were necessary
and
you will understand that
if
you understand history

bybee · Nov 6, 2015

Greg Jennings said:
Bybee, my response originally was to chrysostom, who listed Muslim atrocities committed throughout history. He did not limit it to today. Yes, today Islam is the most violent. But that's not what he was claiming. He was saying that throughout history it's always been the most violent, and I'm simply pointing out that's not the case

I believe it is the case. Man is violent. The Christian man has come to understand this.
The Muslim man celebrates it.

Greg Jennings · Nov 6, 2015

bybee said:
I believe it is the case. Man is violent. The Christian man has come to understand this.
The Muslim man celebrates it.

I'm not sure if you know any Muslims, but I can assure you that the non-extremists (97+% of all Muslims) don't feel this way. Particular those who've been Americanized. I have several Muslim friends who are just as disgusted by the things ISIS is doing as you and I are

Greg Jennings · Nov 6, 2015

chrysostom said:
the crusades were necessary
and
you will understand that
if
you understand history

Why were they necessary? What did they accomplish?

chrysostom · Nov 6, 2015

Greg Jennings said:
Why were they necessary? What did they accomplish?

military force is the only thing that will stop islam
and
you would now be reading the koran
if
it were not used

Greg Jennings · Nov 6, 2015

chrysostom said:
military force is the only thing that will stop islam
and
you would now be reading the koran
if
it were not used

You're confusing the Crusades with the Ottoman Empire. The crusades were begun when Christian armies invaded Jerusalem on the orders of Pope Urban II. It was not a conflict that occurred in Europe, only in the Middle East. Europe was never under threat of invasion except for a couple islands off of the Italian coast

ok doser · Nov 6, 2015

:darwinsm:

oh this guy is solid gold - we gotta keep him around!

Greg Jennings · Nov 6, 2015

ok doser said:
:darwinsm:

oh this guy is solid gold - we gotta keep him around!

Care to weigh in?

chrysostom · Nov 6, 2015

Greg Jennings said:
You're confusing the Crusades with the Ottoman Empire. The crusades were begun when Christian armies invaded Jerusalem on the orders of Pope Urban II. It was not a conflict that occurred in Europe, only in the Middle East. Europe was never under threat of invasion except for a couple islands off of the Italian coast

I am not confusing anything

it started in 634
and
it is still going today

ok doser · Nov 6, 2015

no, no :darwinsm:
you're on a roll - keep going! :darwinsm:

the history of Islam

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