CherubRam
New member
The first resurrection has not come yet.
the two witnesses
- Thread starter chrysostom
- Start date
The first resurrection has not come yet.
what if you gather with another in His name
are you then with Christ?
CherubRam
New member
If there is unity, then yes. Unity would include correct doctrine. Anyway the subject is about the THOUSAND YEAR REIGN.
let's say there was unity
so
you would be reigning with Christ
if
you happened to be reigning
CherubRam
New member
The thousand year reign is time specific.
the two witnesses
are
church and state
are
church and state
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:chuckle:
Revelation 10:6 uses chronos which is not "delay" but merely implies a delay simply by the fact that chronos is an increment of time, (any increment of time implies a delay so just because such a statement is in Strong's Definition does not mean that chronos actually means "delay"). There is another word for delay related to chronos, (chronizo) which could have been used in the Rev 10:6 statement but was not:
Matthew 24:48 KJV
48. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth [GSN#5549 chronizo] his coming;
Revelation 10:6 KJV
6. And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time [GSN#5550 chronos] no longer:
A thousand-year period most definitely constitutes a chronos increment of time. How then can the seventh trumpet come before a thousand-year millennium, (as most prophecy teachers seem to believe and teach) if at the seventh trumpet chronos-time shall be no more?
C. I. Scofield claimed that "Not one instance exists of a 'spiritual' or figurative fulfilment of prophecy... Jerusalem is always Jerusalem, Israel is always Israel, Zion is always Zion... Prophecies may never be spiritualised, but are always literal." C.I. Scofield, Scofield Bible Correspondence Course (Chicago, Moody Bible Institute), pp. 45-46.
Christian Zionists therefore tend to make the two witnesses - δυσιν μαρτυσιν - literal guys, often figures from the Old Testament.
One system of prophecy interpretation long used by the Catholics is called amillennialism.
Origen made use of broad allegory in interpreting Scripture, and
Augustine followed his lead, saying the thousand year reign of Christ
in Revelation 20: 1-8 is an allegory of all the church age. Catholics
and traditional Calvinists do the same and also say the 144,000 of
Revelation 7 and 14 are merely the saved people of the entire church
age.
Saying the δυσιν μαρτυσιν - two martyrs - are the church and the state could be an allegory, making the two witnesses something more of the earth than of the Spirit.
But scripture interprets scripture (Isaiah 28: 10).
Look at the uses of μαρτυσιν, martyrs or witnesses, in these scriptures: What do the witnesses witness to?
"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us," Hebrews 12: 1
"Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. I Timothy 5: 19
"John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me." John 1: 15 "Him" is Jesus Christ, the Truth.
"Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth." John 5: 33
"And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning." John 15: 27 Who are "Ye?" "Ye" are Christ's disciples who have been taught the Truth.
In Revelation 11: 4 the Two Witnesses are said to be two olive trees and two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. This is a reference to Zechariah 4: 3-6, 11-14. In Zechariah 4: 6 the two olive trees are "...the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel, saying, not by might, not by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord of Hosts."
The Truth comes by the Spirit, not by might or by human power. Then, in Zechariah 4: 14 the two candlesticks are said to be "...the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."
The Two Witnesses in Revelation 11: 7-8 are said to be killed by the beast out of the bottomless pit and their bodies are said to lie in the street of the great city called Sodom and Egypt, where our Lord was crucified. This is in the language of metaphor. It is not literal, and is also not part of a broad sweeping allegory.
Then, in Revelation 11: 11 the Spirit of life from God entered into the Two Witnesses. They are anointed in the Truth, and witnesses to that Truth. The word λοιποι appears in Revelation 11: 13, which is translated as remnant in the King James Version, but as survivors in the New International Version. λοιπων, basically the same word as λοιποι is used in Revelation 12: 17, which again is translated as remnant in the King James Version, but as "rest" in the New International Version.
The Two Witnesses who are anointed in the Truth and witness to the Truth represent a remnant, similar to the remnant in Romans 11: 5 who came out of Old Covenant Israel to begin the New Covenant. Translating λοιπων as "rest" in the New International Version for Revelation 12: 17 argues against this interpretation. Could it be that the Church under Christian Zionism would oppose the interpretation of the Two Witnesses as being those anointed in the Truth who testify to that Truth?
Christian Zionists therefore tend to make the two witnesses - δυσιν μαρτυσιν - literal guys, often figures from the Old Testament.
One system of prophecy interpretation long used by the Catholics is called amillennialism.
Origen made use of broad allegory in interpreting Scripture, and
Augustine followed his lead, saying the thousand year reign of Christ
in Revelation 20: 1-8 is an allegory of all the church age. Catholics
and traditional Calvinists do the same and also say the 144,000 of
Revelation 7 and 14 are merely the saved people of the entire church
age.
Saying the δυσιν μαρτυσιν - two martyrs - are the church and the state could be an allegory, making the two witnesses something more of the earth than of the Spirit.
But scripture interprets scripture (Isaiah 28: 10).
Look at the uses of μαρτυσιν, martyrs or witnesses, in these scriptures: What do the witnesses witness to?
"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us," Hebrews 12: 1
"Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. I Timothy 5: 19
"John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me." John 1: 15 "Him" is Jesus Christ, the Truth.
"Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth." John 5: 33
"And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning." John 15: 27 Who are "Ye?" "Ye" are Christ's disciples who have been taught the Truth.
In Revelation 11: 4 the Two Witnesses are said to be two olive trees and two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. This is a reference to Zechariah 4: 3-6, 11-14. In Zechariah 4: 6 the two olive trees are "...the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel, saying, not by might, not by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord of Hosts."
The Truth comes by the Spirit, not by might or by human power. Then, in Zechariah 4: 14 the two candlesticks are said to be "...the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."
The Two Witnesses in Revelation 11: 7-8 are said to be killed by the beast out of the bottomless pit and their bodies are said to lie in the street of the great city called Sodom and Egypt, where our Lord was crucified. This is in the language of metaphor. It is not literal, and is also not part of a broad sweeping allegory.
Then, in Revelation 11: 11 the Spirit of life from God entered into the Two Witnesses. They are anointed in the Truth, and witnesses to that Truth. The word λοιποι appears in Revelation 11: 13, which is translated as remnant in the King James Version, but as survivors in the New International Version. λοιπων, basically the same word as λοιποι is used in Revelation 12: 17, which again is translated as remnant in the King James Version, but as "rest" in the New International Version.
The Two Witnesses who are anointed in the Truth and witness to the Truth represent a remnant, similar to the remnant in Romans 11: 5 who came out of Old Covenant Israel to begin the New Covenant. Translating λοιπων as "rest" in the New International Version for Revelation 12: 17 argues against this interpretation. Could it be that the Church under Christian Zionism would oppose the interpretation of the Two Witnesses as being those anointed in the Truth who testify to that Truth?
Tyndale New Testament of 1526 for Revelation 11: 13:
"And the same hour was there a great earthquake and the tenth part of the city fell and in the earth quake were slain names of men seven and the remnant were feared and gave glory to God of heaven.
Tyndale New Testament for Revelation 12: 17:
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman: and went and made war with the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. And I stode on the see sonde.
1599 Geneva Bible for Revelation 11: 13: "And the same hour shall there be a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city shall fall, and in the earthquake shall be slain in number seven thousand: and the remnant were sore feared, and gave glory to God of heaven."
1599 Geneva Bible for Revelation 12: 17: "Then the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went and made war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
Luther's German Bible of 1545 for Revelation 11: 13: "Und zu derselben Stunde ward ein großes Erdbeben, und der zehnte Teil der Stadt fiel; und wurden getötet in dem Erdbeben siebentausend Namen der Menschen, und die andern erschraken und gaben Ehre dem Gott des Himmels."
OK, for Revelation 11: 13, Luther translates λοιποι as "die andern," the others in Revelation 11: 13
Luther's German Bible of 1545 for Revelation 12: 17: " Und der Drache ward zornig über das Weib und ging hin zu streiten mit den übrigen von ihrem Samen, die da Gottes Gebote halten und haben das Zeugnis Jesu Christi."
Luther translates λοιπων as übrigen, the remaining or the rest.
1899 Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible for Revelation 11: 13: "And at that hour there was made a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell: and there were slain in the earthquake names of men seven thousand: and the rest were cast into a fear, and gave glory to the God of heaven."
1899 Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible for Revelation 12: 17: "And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
New King James Version for Revelation 11: 13: "In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven."
New King James Version for Revelation 12: 17: "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
The recent Bible versions generally avoid translating λοιποι as remnant in Revelation 11: 13 and Revelaion 12: 17. However, William Tyndale used remnant in both Revelation 11: 13 and Revelation 12: 17, followed by the Geneva Bible and the King James Version.
But the New International Version for Romans 11: 5 says "So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace." Remnant is from λειμμα, or leimma. See: http://biblehub.com/greek/3005.htm............................."Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
remnant. From leipo; a remainder -- remnant. see GREEK leipo."....................."NAS: time a remnant according, KJV: there is a remnant according, INT: present time a remnant according to election."
The Latin Vulgate of Jerome for Revelation 11: 13 says "et in illa hora factus est terraemotus magnus et decima pars civitatis cecidit et occisi sunt in terraemotu nomina hominum septem milia et reliqui in timore sunt missi et dederunt gloriam Deo caeli."
The Latin Vulgate for Revelation 12: 17 has "et iratus est draco in mulierem et abiit facere proelium *** reliquis de semine eius qui custodiunt mandata Dei et habent testimonium Iesu."
"reliquis de semine" means the rest of her seed, or the remains of her seed.
Reliqui in Latin means the rest or the remainder. Lets see what the Latin Vulate has for Romans 11; 5: "sic ergo et in hoc tempore reliquiae secundum electionem gratiae factae sunt."
The key Latin word above is "reliquiae," meaning relics or remains, like remains of the dead.
There is not the linguistic support in the Catholic tradition for the remnant as a smaller number remaining faithful to God when the larger multitude falls into disobedience and apostasy as there is in the Reformation from the Tyndale, Geneva Bible and King James Version.
And - the recent New Testament translations during the time when Christian Zionism has been influencing the church's theologies there is also not the linguistic support for the principle of the remnant, that God raises up a remnant to continue his plan of redemption when the multitude goes into false doctrines and practices.
I got the Latin Vulgate texts from: http://www.latinvulgate.com/lv/verse.aspx?t=1&b=6&c=11
"And the same hour was there a great earthquake and the tenth part of the city fell and in the earth quake were slain names of men seven and the remnant were feared and gave glory to God of heaven.
Tyndale New Testament for Revelation 12: 17:
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman: and went and made war with the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. And I stode on the see sonde.
1599 Geneva Bible for Revelation 11: 13: "And the same hour shall there be a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city shall fall, and in the earthquake shall be slain in number seven thousand: and the remnant were sore feared, and gave glory to God of heaven."
1599 Geneva Bible for Revelation 12: 17: "Then the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went and made war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
Luther's German Bible of 1545 for Revelation 11: 13: "Und zu derselben Stunde ward ein großes Erdbeben, und der zehnte Teil der Stadt fiel; und wurden getötet in dem Erdbeben siebentausend Namen der Menschen, und die andern erschraken und gaben Ehre dem Gott des Himmels."
OK, for Revelation 11: 13, Luther translates λοιποι as "die andern," the others in Revelation 11: 13
Luther's German Bible of 1545 for Revelation 12: 17: " Und der Drache ward zornig über das Weib und ging hin zu streiten mit den übrigen von ihrem Samen, die da Gottes Gebote halten und haben das Zeugnis Jesu Christi."
Luther translates λοιπων as übrigen, the remaining or the rest.
1899 Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible for Revelation 11: 13: "And at that hour there was made a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell: and there were slain in the earthquake names of men seven thousand: and the rest were cast into a fear, and gave glory to the God of heaven."
1899 Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible for Revelation 12: 17: "And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
New King James Version for Revelation 11: 13: "In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven."
New King James Version for Revelation 12: 17: "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
The recent Bible versions generally avoid translating λοιποι as remnant in Revelation 11: 13 and Revelaion 12: 17. However, William Tyndale used remnant in both Revelation 11: 13 and Revelation 12: 17, followed by the Geneva Bible and the King James Version.
But the New International Version for Romans 11: 5 says "So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace." Remnant is from λειμμα, or leimma. See: http://biblehub.com/greek/3005.htm............................."Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
remnant. From leipo; a remainder -- remnant. see GREEK leipo."....................."NAS: time a remnant according, KJV: there is a remnant according, INT: present time a remnant according to election."
The Latin Vulgate of Jerome for Revelation 11: 13 says "et in illa hora factus est terraemotus magnus et decima pars civitatis cecidit et occisi sunt in terraemotu nomina hominum septem milia et reliqui in timore sunt missi et dederunt gloriam Deo caeli."
The Latin Vulgate for Revelation 12: 17 has "et iratus est draco in mulierem et abiit facere proelium *** reliquis de semine eius qui custodiunt mandata Dei et habent testimonium Iesu."
"reliquis de semine" means the rest of her seed, or the remains of her seed.
Reliqui in Latin means the rest or the remainder. Lets see what the Latin Vulate has for Romans 11; 5: "sic ergo et in hoc tempore reliquiae secundum electionem gratiae factae sunt."
The key Latin word above is "reliquiae," meaning relics or remains, like remains of the dead.
There is not the linguistic support in the Catholic tradition for the remnant as a smaller number remaining faithful to God when the larger multitude falls into disobedience and apostasy as there is in the Reformation from the Tyndale, Geneva Bible and King James Version.
And - the recent New Testament translations during the time when Christian Zionism has been influencing the church's theologies there is also not the linguistic support for the principle of the remnant, that God raises up a remnant to continue his plan of redemption when the multitude goes into false doctrines and practices.
I got the Latin Vulgate texts from: http://www.latinvulgate.com/lv/verse.aspx?t=1&b=6&c=11
the two witnesses
are
the church and state
and
it is history
are
the church and state
and
it is history
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:chuckle:
Church, State and History = Three.
that doesn't make sense
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
His harebrained schemes are entertaining!
this is pretty good for a catholic
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Pretty good fiction!
please don't delete
Daniel1769
New member
I think the witnesses are Enoch and Elijah. It seems as if the witnesses are great prophets. But it also said they will be killed. Enoch and Elijah were both great prophets who didn't die yet apparently. For these reasons, I think it is Enoch and Elijah. I don't know for sure, obviously, but this makes the most sense to me.